What would you daily that tows 10k#s V2? - ~10k Budget

Cooter said:

I don't know your boat ownership history, so don't think that I'm trying to be obtuse. 

 

What is your boat ownership history?

What is your trailer boat history?

What is your big boat history?

 

Trailer boats almost always are in much better shape when buying used. Why?  Because they don't get used. The first year of ownership is pretty busy, with each successive year falling off to near zero like bell curve. Hooking up the trailer, dragging a boat, launching it, and pulling it back out to drag home and park are a time-sucking PITA when all you really want to do is be on the boat.  Storage at home is yet another issue, as well as trailer maintenance, which is compounded by the boat being on it all the time. 

Been around boats my entire life. I've had one or multiple Boston whalers since age 14 (31 now). Still have a 15' whaler. Grew up crewing on various sized sporfishes from 37' to 82'. Race sailboats. Own a Hobie 16'. Spend many hours on smaller boats 18-33' every year fishing offshore east coast and west coast of Fl including Keys and also Bahamas. This is my first crossing into owning a boat of this size.

I understand that not everyone likes boats but trust me my boats get used. Heading to the Bahamas friday morning on a fifty something Viking to restock the freezer!

If extended cab with suicide doors in the back could work we'd be pretty close swapping my '11 Silverado 2500 for your Corolla plus paying off my note.....

Let's make a deal! 

SVreX said:

Plus, you are driving very few miles (presumably with quite a bit of traffic). 

Bad conditions for a diesel. 

Rent (or contract) a tow vehicle when you need to move the boat. 

I just gotta chime in here.  Not picking on you SVRex, just a general rant.

I'm really sick of the misinformation being pushed around the web about diesels.  This idea of very few miles and traffic being a bad thing for a diesel was a myth back in 1965, and it is certainly completely untrue today. Modern high-pressure common rail direct injection is just as fine in stop and go or sitting still as any gas engine.  In fact, with the addition of ethanol, and the lower sulfur of modern diesel fuel, diesel fuel is far more stable in storage than gasoline.  As far as leaving you stranded, I'd take any duramax, any 7.3L, any bulletproofed 6.0L, or any Cummins over any of the gas offerings any day for reliability.  There is a reason diesels command such a high resale value.  They last a long time.  Mash your foot, drive 500k, sell it for half of what you paid for it.  Try that with a gas engine.

Maintenance cost is slightly higher, but oil change intervals are much longer (on par with gas vehicles) and the only difference is that it takes more oil to change.  A fuel filter is $15 and you have to change it every once in a while.  But otherwise, there is no additional maintenance cost.

I've owned two duramaxes, two 7.3L, one 6.5 GM, one 6.2 GM, and one Cummins 5.9L.  All of them ran exactly as designed for hundreds of thousands of miles, and the only one that needed any major repairs was the earlier Dmax because of the injector failure.  So $1300 and a weekend later, problem fixed.  I will more than recoup that cost when I sell it for twice as much as I would a gas truck.

The one Duramax of my dad's is an 08 with 36,000 miles on it.  36,000 miles in 10 years.  Doesn't matter how much it sits, it fires up and runs flawlessly every time.

10k lbs is about the point where I switch over to a strong preference for diesel.  The torque, thermal efficiency, and effortless oomph just can't really be duplicated by gas engines.  I have no worries in the Dmax putting my foot to the floor for the climb from Phoenix to Flagstaff.  Doing it with a 5.4L Ford means hours of 4500 rpms, temperatures rising, pistons overheating, transmission cooking with all the additional shifts, and a computer trying to avoid detonation.

There really is no comparison.  I remember the first time I towed with a diesel.  It was a 215hp 6.5L TD.  I was towing 10k lbs.  There wasn't a single mountain I couldn't top at or above the speed limit on any interstate.  That truck had replaced an 88 K2500 with the 5.7 TBI.  The difference was almost unfathomable.

My DD/Tow Pig for many many years was a 95 F250 stroke.  DD in downtown LA for 7 years, towed a 10k RV for three years when we full-timed, and I used it for work.  Paid $10k for it used with 60k miles.  Drove it until it had almost 200k and I had collected $3300 in insurance checks from little finder benders that I never fixed.  Sold it for $7000, so I made money on it.  Had to replace two glow plug relays.  That's it.

The 21 mpg empty didn't hurt either.

In reply to Curtis :

I don’t mind you picking on me. You are much more knowledgeable than me on this, and I always learn something from you. 

I will admit my knowledge is mostly anecdotal, but my experience is much different than yours. 

I had an ‘08 Duramax. It cost me on average $1000 a month in repairs just to own it. Mostly electrical. My mechanic only did diesels (all types). He told me he made his entire living off Duramax electrical issues. Said they were very consistent- always issues.

i agree with you about a bulletproofed 6.0. Good truck. But Enyar is trying to buy an $8000 truck (in the North). That’s not the price point for a clean bullet proofed truck. 

As far as stop and go traffic and low mileage driving, completely anecdotal. My 7.3L hates  it.  I have driven that truck 560,000 miles, and the ONLY time I’ve ever had issues with it was when I let it sit, or sat in traffic. Perhaps my truck was the only one on the planet that acted that way, but it certainly did. 

At $8K with low annual usage needs, I think he needs a gas burner. Or a rental. Both will be cheaper than a diesel.

If you get a 6.0 get an 05+ that's stock and never been tuned. I had a very clean 2006 6.0 F250 that I bought from the original owners for $10k. They hauled hay with it up and down California since day one. It got worked. It was stock minus the bulletproof egr and oil cooler. I saw all the maintenance history on it. Most of its issues were under 50k miles. I daily drove it and towed with it. Always reliable. I really miss that truck (it was stolen).

Make sure you change the oil every 3-5k miles and use the right coolant. Do not buy a tuned one and do not buy one that doesn't have records. They are harder to work on because the huge repairs require cab off sometimes. Common issues are egr, oil cooler, ficm and hg for the people that tuned them. I wouldn't buy an early one though. A well taken cared of example will cost you though. I got lucky. 

I currently daily drive a 2wd 7.3 excursion that I bought for cheap. She's ugly but strong. It has 223k on it I've put 20k miles on it with about 5k of it towing in the last year lol. I've hauled my family and a car from California to Texas with no issues. Also towed from Texas to cali and back with no issues. 

It's reliable, loud, slow, strong and gets pretty decent gas mileage. The weak spots are the trans if you want to tune it. 

I think my 6.0 was better. It was faster, better mpgs, rode better, and equally reliable. 

You can most definitely find a good 4x4 7.3 f250 or f350 in your price range. I don't know where you're located but in the south west and Texas they're plenty. Don't be afraid of mileage these trucks go and go. 

My rust free v10 ex 4x4 was 5k with 180k on it just flushed the trans and added the dorman cooler. It has a few niggly issues like central locking and powered vent windows don't work but its solid an AC blows cold. Not sure about where you are but around here 12-13k is the going rate sometimes all the way up to 15+ for a 7.3. 87 octane or whatever the cheap stuff is 2.50 here while diesel is 3.09 so thats a 20% difference in fuel cost.

According to https://www.edmunds.com/calculators/gas-guzzler.html it would take 50 months of diesel ownership at 2k miles per month to make up the difference of 13 vs 20 mpg. (24k miles a year is more than most people do) don't get me wrong I love diesel my daily is a diesel and I have owned them for years but the cost argument rarely wins out.

I have now towed a few hours away a couple of times both my travel trailer and my 20ft enclosed with race car and stuff. I could do a tune and Y pipe for 500 and as I bought a 4x4 I could spend 1-2k regearing the truck but then it will happily tow over 10k a lot of guys even towing 40ft campers with them.

I am super impressed and for the money don't see how I could come close to the performance/price value of the V10 EX with the 6.0 or similarly priced suburbans. My solution is not the solution for everyone and I don't pretend to think so

IF I didn't already have a daily and wasn't concerned about turning radius I would happily daily it. I also find myself very glad I have the SUV vs truck bed for normal stuff because I leave tools/coolers and all kinds of other stuff locked in the back

In reply to Curtis :

The issues that people encounter with diesels aren't related to fuel type, or injection systems. The bad reputation comes from issues related to the emissions controls. Not sure what year your Duramaxes have been, but the other engines you mentioned are pre-emissions, and are a much simpler beast than an 08+ trucks with EGR, DPFs, and SCR/urea injection systems. If most or all of your experience comes from diesels that are 10+ years old, then your opinion makes sense, but it may not apply to more modern diesels.

These new trucks can absolutely struggle as daily drivers and mall crawlers. They make 900ft-lbs with a warranty. Thats not to putt around, they're made to perform their best while doing hard work. Everything about the design expects to be used under working conditions, so they quickly become less than optimal just hauling 200lbs of driver around on fairly short commutes. I can go into more detail if you'd like, but OP probably won't have a ton of these trucks available within his budget.

I was about to recommend a v10 ex or f250. They're bargains! I was looking for a v10 when I stumbled on my 7.3

In reply to Jaynen :

Your excursion looks just like mine. Except I took off the tan cladding.

Enyar said:

3 car house hold means the driveway is going to be a disaster and depreciation/maintenance and insurance adds up even more. I'm still running the numbers but I think truck as daily would be cheaper than an older truck+keeping the corolla. 

I understand storage issues, but how much depreciation can there be left on a 2005 Corolla?  Assuming it's reliable (sludge-era Toyota, so I dunno), it really doesn't seem like it'd cost a lot to keep that car as the daily and add a truck for towing.

I own a 2007 Duramax as a tow vehicle and IMHO daily driving it SUCKS.  It's way, way at the bottom of the list of vehicles I'd choose for driving to work and back.  I'd gladly pay the additional cost of keeping the Corolla around just to not have to deal with parking the truck everywhere.  

What about a Tundra/Sequoia? I'd love to stick with Toyota if possible.

Old ones will be really overworked on brakes, suspension, and power in that order towing ~10k. Newer ones with a 5.7L i don't know if you can get in your price range as i've honestly never window-shopped them.  

I daily drive my '04 Duramax.  I've put 85,000 km on in in 2.5 years.  Bought it with 201,000 km.  After looking after some deferred maintenance issues that were known when I bought it, it's been about perfect.

And towing my 5th wheel RV with my small flat deck behind that with the dirt bikes on it through the mountains is stupid easy.  This whole idea about diesels not being able to handle easy daily driving is rubbish and needs to die.

2001-early 2004 Duramax (LB7) - Awesome engine with a bit of a deserved reputation for injector issues.  And the injectors are hard to access, so lots of labour

Late 2004-early 2006 Duramax (LLY) - Awesome engine, easy to access injectors that fail much less frequently with a bit of a reputation for running hot when towing heavy.  Keep the cooling stack clean and they usually don't have much of an issue

Late 2006-2007 Duramax (LBZ) - Considered by many as the holy grail of Dmax's.  Also have the 6 speed Allison automatic which is nice, but my 5 speed is also awesome for towing.

2008-2010?? Duramax (LMM) - I believe these are essentially an LBZ but have some of the new emissions control stuff.  With deletes done, basically an LBZ

Based on personal experience with my Duramax, my dad's Duramax, a friends Duramax (and now his 6.0 Powerstroke) I'd take any Dmax over any 6.0 Ford any day.  The Cummins (5.9) is sweet, but good god those trucks feel like tractors.

These are all IMO/YMMV obviously.

How about a Nissan Titan? With the tow package they are rated to 9600 or so, and they seem to be super cheap compared to everything else, and they seem to rust far less than any of the others.  We have had threads on them here before and there are no major issues, and they seem readily available in your price range.  You can tell the tow package ones by looking for the two post big mirrors. 

I think the early Titans had differential cooling issues, but I'm sure there's an aftermarket solution for that by now.

In reply to Enyar : Come at it from a different approach. 

Move! Take the money you’ll spend on a truck and buy a house near the water.  Homes on the water appreciate at 2x+ times normal appreciation.  If the daily commute gets longer at least your not doing it in something that gets decent fuel mileage instead of under 10mpg  

In reply to frenchyd :

The buy-in on the water around here is ridiculous.  

frenchyd said:

In reply to Enyar : Come at it from a different approach. 

Move! Take the money you’ll spend on a truck and buy a house near the water.  Homes on the water appreciate at 2x+ times normal appreciation.  If the daily commute gets longer at least your not doing it in something that gets decent fuel mileage instead of under 10mpg  

My current house is less than 3 miles from the local boat ramp. Houses on the water are going to be 500k+ with obscene property taxes and flood insurance.

As for my location, I'm in Clearwater Fl so rust and hills are not a problem. Keep the discussion going, it's very informative. My first order of business is to get the boat/trailer weighed and see exactly what I'm working with. After more reading it seems like the Suburban 2500 or a Tundra would be a great fit, as long as it's safe. Otherwise I'm going to keep looking into these older diesels with emission deletes and as stock as possible. 

In reply to spitfirebill :I think that makes my point.  

My first home on the water I paid $27,800 for.  People told me I was crazy.  For that money I could own a new split level with a 2 car garage in a new housing development instead of a tiny one bedroom 80 year old house.  

You have to live someplace.  Certain properties will be desirable and command a premium even in a down market. Buying the worst house in the best neighborhood has always been a solid investment.  Then you can spend money fixing it up.  If you own the nicest house in the neighborhood and you guess the right trends you might average a return of 70% . That is for every $100 you spend you might get $70 back  when you sell. 

If you make the same investment on the worst house you can average 150% or many times more.  

That’s Flipping Houses 101 

I used to DD my tow pig, a 7.3 e350 for a while, pretty much cause I had to.  Then I picked up a c4 corvette with collector car insurance, and let's just say it was very affordable. I also found a lot of stuff I'm looking for on Sarasota and Fort Meyers CL. Maybe leave one vehicle at work and swap every so many days.

Enyar said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to Enyar : Come at it from a different approach. 

Move! Take the money you’ll spend on a truck and buy a house near the water.  Homes on the water appreciate at 2x+ times normal appreciation.  If the daily commute gets longer at least your not doing it in something that gets decent fuel mileage instead of under 10mpg  

My current house is less than 3 miles from the local boat ramp. Houses on the water are going to be 500k+ with obscene property taxes and flood insurance.

 

 

As for my location, I'm in Clearwater Fl so rust and hills are not a problem. Keep the discussion going, it's very informative. My first order of business is to get the boat/trailer weighed and see exactly what I'm working with. After more reading it seems like the Suburban 2500 or a Tundra would be a great fit, as long as it's safe. Otherwise I'm going to keep looking into these older diesels with emission deletes and as stock as possible. 

 

 

The Suburban/Yukon XL 2500 is common recommendation, and I would add mine to that.  I have an 06 with the 8.1 and 4.10 gears, and its rated to tow 12k lbs, with 3.73 they are rated at 10k.  I think the 6.0 Suburban 2500s were rated 7600 and 9600 for 4.10 and 3.73 ratios.  The 8.1 will use quite a bit of gas, and possibly a little bit of oil, but otherwise is solid.  If you prefer a bed, you could get an Avalanche 2500 with the 8.1 as well (not offered with 6.0), or they sold the Silverados/Sierras with the 8.1 as well (and it was backed by the Allison transmission in the trucks, but not the Avalanche or Suburban).  I don't think you are driving enough to offset the higher buy in for a diesel, and while I did love my Duramax, the 8.1 has tons of torque, and will easily tow your boat especially in the flat land you live in.  I would also go with GM over Ford or Dodge for daily driving due to the ride comfort.  The IFS might not be great for tractor pulls, but as a daily it is great.

In reply to Enyar :

I realize that what I’m suggesting seems impossible, when you put the whole package together it might not be. 

I don’t have flood insurance. I’m high enough above the water that it’s not required.  Question? Aren’t there properties on the water that are up on a bluff or hill enough to avoid the cost of flood insurance?  

Second taxes, the community I live in has a really high tax base so property taxes are actually lower. That is the mill rate is low.  The total dollar cost will give you pause but when you factor in the rate of appreciation it’s actually modest.  Are there communities like that in Florida? 

Income taxes,  because most of my life I’ve been house poor. Even though I earned a nice 6 figure income,  my income taxes were very low.  That helped me make those big payments.  

Finally, putting your house or it’s equivalent on the water might be too expensive but are there things you would trade for the better return on waterfront? The view, and the pleasure of living right on the water?  

Could you live with an outdated kitchen and bathrooms for example? Or one or two less bedrooms?  Houses can be updated at a late date, when your costs go down or income goes up.  

Doing a spread sheet might require a whole lot of assumptions and take a lot of time.  If it’s too much time I certainly understand,.  

Buying a depreciating vehicle instead of an appreciating house might be what you want to do.  That’s fine.  

Uh oh...

Tow vehicle recommendations are getting dangerously close to construction and Cinderella castles... 

camaroz1985 said:

Enyar said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to Enyar : Come at it from a different approach. 

Move! Take the money you’ll spend on a truck and buy a house near the water.  Homes on the water appreciate at 2x+ times normal appreciation.  If the daily commute gets longer at least your not doing it in something that gets decent fuel mileage instead of under 10mpg  

My current house is less than 3 miles from the local boat ramp. Houses on the water are going to be 500k+ with obscene property taxes and flood insurance.

 

 

As for my location, I'm in Clearwater Fl so rust and hills are not a problem. Keep the discussion going, it's very informative. My first order of business is to get the boat/trailer weighed and see exactly what I'm working with. After more reading it seems like the Suburban 2500 or a Tundra would be a great fit, as long as it's safe. Otherwise I'm going to keep looking into these older diesels with emission deletes and as stock as possible. 

 

 

The Suburban/Yukon XL 2500 is common recommendation, and I would add mine to that.  I have an 06 with the 8.1 and 4.10 gears, and its rated to tow 12k lbs, with 3.73 they are rated at 10k.  I think the 6.0 Suburban 2500s were rated 7600 and 9600 for 4.10 and 3.73 ratios.  The 8.1 will use quite a bit of gas, and possibly a little bit of oil, but otherwise is solid.  If you prefer a bed, you could get an Avalanche 2500 with the 8.1 as well (not offered with 6.0), or they sold the Silverados/Sierras with the 8.1 as well (and it was backed by the Allison transmission in the trucks, but not the Avalanche or Suburban).  I don't think you are driving enough to offset the higher buy in for a diesel, and while I did love my Duramax, the 8.1 has tons of torque, and will easily tow your boat especially in the flat land you live in.  I would also go with GM over Ford or Dodge for daily driving due to the ride comfort.  The IFS might not be great for tractor pulls, but as a daily it is great.

Thanks for the advice!

As for houses, I'm perfectly content where I am! 

A gas truck/SUV is starting to make more and more sense to me. Since the majority of my trips will be 2-10 miles to a local boat ramp on flat ground I don't think I need a 3/4 ton truck.  The reliability and value of the Tundra sounds really appealing to me and they seem a whole lot less brodozerd out than the f250 and 2500 equivalents. 

If fully loaded is too much work for the trips across the state (which will be 1-4 times a year) I could always rent a 3/4 ton if needed.