What would you rather have for the track, e92 m3 DCT or alfa 4c?

I've been waiting for the new Supra to come out before getting serious about buying a new track car, just in case it arrived at 3100 lbs and at least the 384 hp(like the z4) for under 40k.  Since it's out and I'm a bit underwhelmed (m2 competition seems like a better value to me if I was to go new)

Figure the M3 or 4c would receive the same-ish mods:

 e92- CAI, tune, 18x10 wheels/tires square, Seats, harness bar/half cage for time trials (of course brake pads/fluids/tires)

4c - tune(heard you can get up to 300hp pretty easily) tires/seats/harness bar/half cage for time trials (of course brake pads/fluids/tires)

e92 would probably be a bit cheaper and have more HP and a true dual clutch, but much heavier.

What would you rather have for yourself? 

what would you recommend for an intermediate driver(on a good day) who already has an e46(non-m, 330i but pretty modified)/rx8/c4 zr1/v12 vantage s for track duty.  (The e46 is my favorite, but wish i could keep up with some of the faster cars on track day)  I'm not particularly competitive, just want to have fun...  

I know i'm in the minority, but paddle shift is a must.  I have a few true manual's already, and the paddles are just so much easier...

Don't buy anything for the track you wouldn't feel comfortible walking away from. There is a reason you'll see so many "beater" miata and e36 m3 at your average track day. 

Both the cars you mention are great cars, but I would imagine upkeep, wear and tear, and consumables would be horrendous. 

I track my Exige full time last 6.5 years. I love it. I love the suspension, the direct true driving feel, how it dances in the track, the visceral nature of the car compared to my sedate Elise and the lightness . 

Having said that I miss torque. Personally I wouldn’t buy either of the choices you provided, but if forced to pick one to track I would go with M3

My first reaction was 4C because it's super cool. However, how do you secure a cage in a carbon monocoque chassis? 

How do you maintain the bolted carbon tub on a 4C in a track environment. It has issues with street use.

Honestly and I mean this if you need a dual clutch get a cheap used cayman with a PDK and beat the E36 M3 out of it for years. 

NordicSaab said:

Don't buy anything for the track you wouldn't feel comfortible walking away from. There is a reason you'll see so many "beater" miata and e36 m3 at your average track day. 

 

Both the cars you mention are great cars, but I would imagine upkeep, wear and tear, and consumables would be horrendous. 

Agreed, I assume the 4c would be better on consumables due to weight.  That's part of the reason I like multiple cars, when I break on(not if) I'm still able to have fun,  As long as I am able to "walk away" I consider it a win!

mr2s2000elise said:

I track my Exige full time last 6.5 years. I love it. I love the suspension, the direct true driving feel, how it dances in the track, the visceral nature of the car compared to my sedate Elise and the lightness . 

 

Having said that I miss torque. Personally I wouldn’t buy either of the choices you provided, but if forced to pick one to track I would go with M3

I'm a big guy, I doubt I'd fin in a Lotus!  I've sat in a 4c with the stock seats, and I fit fin with a helmet.  If I could find a lotus locally I could try out I might add that to the list.  Thanks for the reply, out of curiosity, what would you buy? (you said you wouldn't pick either)

wearymicrobe said:

How do you maintain the bolted carbon tub on a 4C in a track environment. It has issues with street use.

 

Honestly and I mean this if you need a dual clutch get a cheap used cayman with a PDK and beat the E36 M3 out of it for years. 

I assume it's bolted in with steel sandwiching the carbon?  No idea really, good question...

I had a bad experience with Audi Financial a few years back(they are totally unethical and anti customer), and will never own another car produced by any brand in the VW family.  It's a shame cause I really liked the car, but it's a non starter.  I still send them a pic every time i buy a new car.  Otherwise the Cayman would certainly be on the list.  My e46 330i as it's modded(zhp engine,catless headers/tune/stripped/camber plates/springs,/sways/shocks, etc) is pretty even with a similarly prepped e36 m3.  (ran a session with a similarly skilled driver in a fairly well prepped e36 m3 and it was a dead heat)

In reply to cbaclawski :

Ariel Atom is me next track vehicle choice once Exige turns 10 years old. 

In reply to cbaclawski :

Let's see...hummmm   hard one here...i vote for Alfa Romeo 4c

I have a soft spot for the e92 m3. Consumables are not cheap though.

NordicSaab said:

Don't buy anything for the track you wouldn't feel comfortible walking away from. There is a reason you'll see so many "beater" miata and e36 m3 at your average track day.

This, with cherries on top.

I "built" an NA Miata for last year's Miatas at Laguna Seca instead of taking the ND. Someone in an ND just like mine spun out in front of me and hit a wall. Easily could've been me.

Of the three, I'd go with the Alfa.  

Half because I'm not enamored with BMW's at all.  

The other half is that, from a standpoint of a car on a track, the Alfa is pretty darned set up well out of the box- mid engine, light, CF chassis, independent all around, etc.  

That ignores both the cost and any CF issues, and some of that has to do with emotion, too.

If I were going back to the track, though, I would not choose any of them, depending on what I'm doing.  I've done enough track time to understand that "speed" is very relative.  And do I want to put a HUGE investment into something I just play with a few times a year or not?  If I was going racing for real, a huge amount of work needs to be done to research what I'm going to do and where I'm going to race- as if you are going to spend the money, you'd better plan on winning to the best of your budget.

But track days?  The amazing cars that people take out for raw speed are not for me.  I'm going for the fun, not the stop watch.  So even tracking my GTV over a Miata, when I'm 100% sure I'm going slower, was a decision I made because of the fun taking that car around the track.  Still, I would take a Miata all day before any of the 3 selected.  

Between those two I'd pick the Alfa, because it would be more fun to drive, although both have high running costs and are putting a lot of money at risk. A used C6/C7 would be at least as fast, cheaper up front, and less expensive to run. If the costs don't scare you though, you should also consider a Lotus Evora, they have a spacious interior by Lotus standards and are available with a paddle-shiftable auto.

cbaclawski said:

 

I've been waiting for the new Supra to come out before getting serious about buying a new track car, just in case it arrived at 3100 lbs and at least the 384 hp(like the z4) for under 40k.  Since it's out and I'm a bit underwhelmed (m2 competition seems like a better value to me if I was to go new)

Figure the M3 or 4c would receive the same-ish mods:

 e92- CAI, tune, 18x10 wheels/tires square, Seats, harness bar/half cage for time trials (of course brake pads/fluids/tires)

4c - tune(heard you can get up to 300hp pretty easily) tires/seats/harness bar/half cage for time trials (of course brake pads/fluids/tires)

e92 would probably be a bit cheaper and have more HP and a true dual clutch, but much heavier.

What would you rather have for yourself? 

what would you recommend for an intermediate driver(on a good day) who already has an e46(non-m, 330i but pretty modified)/rx8/c4 zr1/v12 vantage s for track duty.  (The e46 is my favorite, but wish i could keep up with some of the faster cars on track day)  I'm not particularly competitive, just want to have fun...  

I know i'm in the minority, but paddle shift is a must.  I have a few true manual's already, and the paddles are just so much easier...

What would I rather have for myself between the M3 or 4C? If money is no object (it can't be, if you've got 4 other track cars)? The 4C, that is a seriously cool and weird and special and crazy car. I will echo those above who question whether you can get a cage mounted in a carbon tub, but for track days you'll be allowed to run without it.

You ask a second question, what would we recommend for an "intermediate driver(on a good day)" who wishes they could keep up with faster cars on the track (but can't with a V12 Vantage S)? More practice! At the risk of being blunt, the limiter is probably you, not the car. I'd take your 330i and flog the crap out of it on the track until when you get in your $100,000 V12 monster sports car you can go faster than the supercharged Miatas who are currently "beating" you (in un-timed HPDE?)!

As a slow but maybe intermediate driver myself, I second that. A fast car gets you down the straight faster, but often you end up with the half-a-hamster-powered Miata on your back bumper in the next corner.

The 4C would be a hoot---- until it caught fire.    The 4C I drove had the build quality of a 1970's kit car.  Seriously-- wires hanging under the dash, a top latch that broke off in my hand, a stereo that looked like an off the shelf Pep Boy's model.......

I enjoyed my time in the 4C, as it's fast, fun, nervous and it sounds cool.   I kept waiting for it to go poof though.   To me an Alfa 4C is the best reason to buy a used Elise.   They offer similar fun, but the Lotus has proven to be reliable.  

Tell us more about your V12 Aston Martin track car

Thanks for all the replies, I'll try to address in one post here:

Dave M - boxheadtim "At the risk of being blunt, the limiter is probably you, not the car."  There is no doubt there is truth here, I am not, and will never be, a world class driver, though for the record nobody passes me when i'm in the Aston!  I've been tracking for about 3yrs(~50 track days/schools) and constantly trying to improve, coaching/data/etc.  I have a lot left to learn, but I'm really not terrible... (I've passed my share of 911's and M cars in my 330i - but can't keep up with the top guys in spec miata's)

Fitzauto - Me too, I'm a BMW guy at heart... plus i love the e46 for what it is...

GameboyRMH:  the C5 z06 seems to be the speed for $$ king, but I already have a c4 zr1 with the lingenfelter performance package, so it's too similar to what i already have...

Alfadriver:  I'm a track enthusiast and a general car enthusiast.  So I totally get what you are saying about having fun driving a slower car at the limit.  If I could only have one, I'd probably just stick to the E46 or the RX8 and be done with it.  As a general car enthusiast, i like driving as many different cars as possible, and what's the point of sitting at stoplights in them, If I can't track it, i might as well buy a crossover and ride in comfort!

Alfaromeoguy:  Based on your username, I'm taking your recommendation with a grain of salt ;)

Joe Gearin:  This scares me!

Thanks again,

Curt

In reply to STM317 :

Bone stock - but stupid fast.  Don't want to mess with it too much, and it's really expensive to fix.  It's a 1-2 day per year event to take it on track...

In reply to cbaclawski :

If you can't beat em', why not join em'? You can get a spec Miata over in the cars for sale forum for a lot less than a 4C.

My neighbor has a 4C and he loves track days , very few mods he spent about 3 grand in upgrades, he’s fast and and has a blast , has had zero mechanical issues for almost 3 years . The beautiful thing about tracking a 4C is that you’ll stand out no matter how fast or how slow you are , it’s a strikingly beautiful car , just make sure it’s red .

Is there a loophole in your “no VAG products” clause that would allow you to buy a Cayman from before 2012?

A friend has an ‘11 PDK they’re looking to sell cheap, and it would be a great track rat.

In reply to cbaclawski :

To be clear, I'm not really talking slow, I'm talking fun.  The driving interaction is different enough to make one car more enjoyable to drive than another.   Perhaps a Corvette is more your enjoyment.  For me, a Miata is slightly faster than my Alfa, but I found the Alfa more enjoyable to drive, especially quickly.  And for sure, if I were an Aston Martin person, while a DB7 would be cheaper than a DB9, I would choose the DB9 all day, since the chassis is light years better.  Both of which have the Ford developed V12.  And I have a very personal connection to the DB7....  

And comparing that with the cost investment, and then factoring in how often I would then use it.

A friend of mine first started tracking a Ferrari, but then moved to an Elise as it was better in whole picture.  (he could afford that kind of car if someone or he crashed).  

If all you are doing is tracking it, you need to figure "fun" into the equation.

In reply to Dave M :

1, I said the top guys - I'll never be one of them!

2. I probably won't fit - I'm about 280lbs(6'2"), pretty big addition to a 1400 lb car percentage wise too. 

3. I like to run 200tw street tires - I doubt those miata's are quite as fast without the slicks.

4. I like to be different!

5. I'm not very smart.

:) :)