In reply to red_stapler :
Nope, hard and fast rule. buying a used one creates a buyer for a new one! Sticking to my guns on this. (they royally screwed up with me)
In reply to red_stapler :
Nope, hard and fast rule. buying a used one creates a buyer for a new one! Sticking to my guns on this. (they royally screwed up with me)
In reply to alfadriver :
We are on the same page, I'm only there for fun. The $5.00 plaque you get for winning a time trial is pretty meaningless to me in the grand scheme. I will admit though, that part of the fun for me is to review laptimes and see how much I've improved... I want something cheaper to fix than the aston(literally almost anything), with paddle shifters, decent power, good track manners and reliability when pushed - so I can have the most fun!
I asked e92 vs. 4c because those are the 2 that seemed to fit me best, although very differently
In reply to pizzaman1 :
That's encouraging, and it's definitely beautiful!
cbaclawski said:In reply to Dave M :
1, I said the top guys - I'll never be one of them!
2. I probably won't fit - I'm about 280lbs(6'2"), pretty big addition to a 1400 lb car percentage wise too.
3. I like to run 200tw street tires - I doubt those miata's are quite as fast without the slicks.
4. I like to be different!
5. I'm not very smart.
:) :)
So, I'm a tall guy with a very tall torso, and there are few sports cars I can safely fit in with a helmet. BMW, Porsche, 'Merica - not too much from Asia. A Miata for me requires lowering the floor. So I'd go sit in the 4C with your helmet before buying!
Also, I like the Exige suggestion. Or, swap out the C4 ZR1 for a C6 ZO6? [EDIT: nevermind the C6 ZO6, I forgot about your transmission requirement].
In reply to Dave M :
I actually did sit in a 4c with helmet in the stock seats and fit fine. I'd probably put aftermarket seats in that would sit even lower so I can put in a 6pt harness. IMO- The ZR1 has more personality than the z06, and from what I've read they are pretty equal on track(esp. with the engine mods mine has). Also, I can't get a price for the ZR1 high enough to make it worth selling(I put it in a tire wall last time out - failed master cylinder). It's fixed, but... also It's got about 10k worth of track equipment already on it, which I would never recoup.
Long-time E92 M3 HPDE-er here. I also have a "light" track car (BMW 79 3-series coupe) and a "medium" (BMW 94 3-series coupe with a V8 swap). I like having a few different track cars because they offer somewhat different experiences. It sounds to me like an M3 might be a good addition to your line-up.
My M3 is always genuine fun and giggles at track days, rewards good vision technique, and will even cool me off between sessions better than a CoolShirt. For me the down-sides are cost of tires and brake pads, which it eats, the body weight, and the prospect of repair bills. If I want to run at the front, I can do okay with it; mostly it comes down to whether somebody has better tires, or a 911 or C6. With a full interior, it seems to be about the same category as C5s and Caymans where I run. As for the cost of totaling it, that would be high, but at HPDE that's a low-probability event, and the likely exposure is to body shop bills, which I can stomach.
The Alfa strikes me as distinctive, though, and that can be a big side order of fun right there. My E21 and E36 are both one-of-a-kind at the places I run, and there's something I like about that angle too.
In reply to JBasham :
Yeah, my only real concern is the weight, but then again it's only a couple hundred more lb's than a brand new m2 comp. If my e46 is any indication, just swapping the front seats is worth almost 150 lbs right there (i swear my e46 power seats were over 80 lbs each!). I don't plan on stripping it, but maybe removing the back seats to offset the weight of a 1/2 cage would be doable. I've also read that they are pretty difficult to remove much weight from even if you do go full "race car" on it, but that it's pretty easy to get another 50hp out of the motor with just a new intake and tune...
I have no plans on true wheel to wheel racing in any car, so while always a possibility, I agree that a full on total is somewhat unlikely. (and i've had my share of off track excursions...)
An e46 M3 would be on my list, but the well maintained ones are now semi collectible, and cost just as much as a e92 with similar care...
Another benefit to multiple track cars - each one gets less use and you don't have to replace tires as often!
I'd be afraid of the reliability of the Alfa, especially used in a track environment. I'm not a fan of the V8 M3's, the motor has no torque, absolutely sucks down fuel and is really heavy. Your consumable costs will be high and you get to try and keep the thing cool on track, plus rod bearings. They sound amazing with an exhaust tho.
That's one of the cars that needs a decent amount of prep to not blow thru things, so bigger radiator and oil cooler, big brake kit, camber plates/coilovers, wheels/tires. That's thousands on top of the purchase price and you haven't done safety yet like rollbar, seats, harnesses yet. You can easily spend $10k + to get it setup for the track.
You already own the E46 330, just develop that a little more and drive it.
Doc, I have a handful of friends who have been tracking the E92 M3 hard here in hot-n-humid Virginia, year after year, without any cooling problems or extra equipment. Both manual and DCT.
My man Ahmad had one for a while with a tune and an exhaust. His Summit Main time was down to 1:20/lap and going lower when he finally decided that was too much without a cage. That ain't bad for a street coupe: Summit Main SCCA Lap Records
Try that at 6000 feet above sea level and an ambient temp of close to 100F. Then let me know how it does. The only car I've ever run up here that I haven't had to do serious modification to get to run normal water temps is my current Porsche 996 Turbo.
Everything else needed the largest radiator/oil cooler I could stuff in there to keep temps below volcanic levels.
Am I weird for thinking a 4c is too special to track?
Are you really chasing speed, or adrenaline? If the latter, a turnkey Exocet might be an answer:
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/exocets-done-three-different-ways/
I know this might sound crazy, but what about using a track car for the track?
A used Radical seems like it would be more than competitive with your current options in terms of price and it would undoubtedly be quicker and better behaved on track.
A Palatov D4 would probably be a bit of a budget stretch, but I think they're worth considering. https://www.palatov.com/cars/d4/
I don't know if you're into oddball stuff, but this Renault is wonderful: http://race-cars.com/carsales/other/1481230203/1481230203ss.htm
Ariel atom or......
zzw30 mr2 with a 2gr v6 swap an ultra capable, unique, reliable track and street weapon with 15k left over. 345hp engine stock, 2200lbs(ish) without any weight reduction.
white_fly said:I know this might sound crazy, but what about using a track car for the track?
A used Radical seems like it would be more than competitive with your current options in terms of price and it would undoubtedly be quicker and better behaved on track.
A Palatov D4 would probably be a bit of a budget stretch, but I think they're worth considering. https://www.palatov.com/cars/d4/
These "sports racer" type cars are too much for this skill level, they drive more like an F1 car than a production sports car. Also I don't think someone who doesn't like H-pattern manuals would like a sequential manual, especially if it doesn't have flat shift & auto rev match.
docwyte said:I'd be afraid of the reliability of the Alfa, especially used in a track environment. I'm not a fan of the V8 M3's, the motor has no torque, absolutely sucks down fuel and is really heavy. Your consumable costs will be high and you get to try and keep the thing cool on track, plus rod bearings. They sound amazing with an exhaust tho.
That's one of the cars that needs a decent amount of prep to not blow thru things, so bigger radiator and oil cooler, big brake kit, camber plates/coilovers, wheels/tires. That's thousands on top of the purchase price and you haven't done safety yet like rollbar, seats, harnesses yet. You can easily spend $10k + to get it setup for the track.
You already own the E46 330, just develop that a little more and drive it.
Sorry I can't figure out how to multiquote on this forum...
I love the e46, I just wish it had a spec e46 3.46 LSD on it, then it'd be about perfect. I'm a bmw guy at heart and that's why i'm drawn to the e92. They seem cheap right now for what you get, but you're probably right about 10k to get track ready,,, which pots it in about the same range as the 4c...
pres589 (djronnebaum) said:Am I weird for thinking a 4c is too special to track?
That's what it's made for!!!
GameboyRMH said:white_fly said:I know this might sound crazy, but what about using a track car for the track?
A used Radical seems like it would be more than competitive with your current options in terms of price and it would undoubtedly be quicker and better behaved on track.
A Palatov D4 would probably be a bit of a budget stretch, but I think they're worth considering. https://www.palatov.com/cars/d4/
These "sports racer" type cars are too much for this skill level, they drive more like an F1 car than a production sports car. Also I don't think someone who doesn't like H-pattern manuals would like a sequential manual, especially if it doesn't have flat shift & auto rev match.
You are probably right about skill level. I've never driven a car with a true sequential manual, but I hear they are pretty sweet. Also It's not that I don't like the H pattern manual, I just have several already, and would like something with paddles besides the Aston. It just makes everything so easy, but as I stated earlier in this thread, That car is stupid expensive to fix and tracking it is a special occasion... (I cracked the front splitter -like a tiny crack- they quoted me $9800 to replace it!...(for the record I'm not THAT dumb, a new clear wrap on it and a strategically placed racing strip on the splitter only and all is well))
Thanks to all for the suggestions, but I don't want a non "street car" i.e radical/exocet/atom. Don't know why, but that seems like cheating, lol. (though the NASA Elan NP01 kinda turns me on - probably just cause it looks so sweet)
I'll probably do a BMWCCA race school this year, a bunch of track days (this weekend was cancelled due to low registration, so I'm depressed about that) and at least one SCCA or NASA time trial.
I'm trying to be somewhat responsible. I have a 3 pedal e31 850i that never gets driven I'm going to sell before buying anything. Hopefully it'll be close to an even swap, so I don't need to make up my mind immediately. That said, if something too good to pass up came along... you know the rest.
This is a fun conversation, thanks again!
Lastly, though I want a track/trackable car, I'm not opposed to being able to occasionally drive on the street in relative comfort. (the e46 has no front windows, no ac, no heat, no radio, etc...) not really something to drive to work on a friday, not to mention it's "technically" not street legal anymore...
In reply to cbaclawski :
Then call diffsonline and order up a rear diff and call it a day!
docwyte said:Try that at 6000 feet above sea level and an ambient temp of close to 100F. Then let me know how it does. The only car I've ever run up here that I haven't had to do serious modification to get to run normal water temps is my current Porsche 996 Turbo.
Everything else needed the largest radiator/oil cooler I could stuff in there to keep temps below volcanic levels.
Fair 'nuff. I know nothing of racing in the square states.
cbaclawski said:In reply to alfadriver :
I want something cheaper to fix than the aston(literally almost anything), with paddle shifters, decent power, good track manners and reliability when pushed - so I can have the most fun!
Sounds like you really need an R35 Skyline GT-R in your life.
docwyte said:In reply to cbaclawski :
Then call diffsonline and order up a rear diff and call it a day!
I will probably end up doing that some day, but oddly the 3k it would cost to do that on a car that's probably worth 8k on a good day just doesn't sit well with me(it might be worth $8.2k with the diff installed). I'm hoping to find a used one cheap someday I guess. I'd rather spend 10x as much and go slower ;)
LanEvo said:cbaclawski said:In reply to alfadriver :
I want something cheaper to fix than the aston(literally almost anything), with paddle shifters, decent power, good track manners and reliability when pushed - so I can have the most fun!
Sounds like you really need an R35 Skyline GT-R in your life.
Very tempting, and I've considered it, but it's just so heavy, and really seems to be holding it's value(i.e. still to expensive)
cbaclawski said:docwyte said:In reply to cbaclawski :
Then call diffsonline and order up a rear diff and call it a day!
I will probably end up doing that some day, but oddly the 3k it would cost to do that on a car that's probably worth 8k on a good day just doesn't sit well with me(it might be worth $8.2k with the diff installed). I'm hoping to find a used one cheap someday I guess. I'd rather spend 10x as much and go slower ;)
In addition to adding a diff, you could swap in an S55 from the same generation M3. Granted doing so would be spending even more money on a car it sounds like you want to move on from, but you’d end up with a damn quick car!
Watch this for inspiration! M3 hill climb
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