While Joseph Lucas may have invented darkness, it took Robert Bosch to perfect it.
While Joseph Lucas may have invented darkness, it took Robert Bosch to perfect it.
pres589 wrote:klopperoo wrote: ...Americans are regarded worldwide as bad engineers, cars especially, hence nobody imported them...How does this relate to the concept of English being 'the language of engineering' and all of the students that come to this country to learn engineering and other scientific fields from our universities?
Unabashed American here... Does klopperoo need a list of world-changing examples of American engineering?
There's enough examples in WW2 alone to make his original statement specious at best.
APOLLO 11 bitches! July 16, 1969 (No offense intended by the b-word btw)
I just had a three paragraph list of exceptional American engineering and my fingers got cramped from going back and forth from all the Top Ten lists. From top engineering schools to inventions and inventors. Even I was amazed at how many things we Amercans have accomplished! Seriously, I was.
The real take home message here is that I NEVER said the Brits weren't exceptional engineers. I believe they were and are. As were MANY civilizations throughout history, China and Rome to name two.
It was YOU who called out America as poor engineers "Americans are regarded worldwide as bad engineers, cars especially" you said but you really don't have much of an argument (don't let te facts get in the way)
What was your point anyway? Did your feelings get hurt from all the Lucas jokes? I always thought of America and Britain as brothers and two great world powers.
But if it makes you feel better; ok you're right, Americans made a bunch of worthless junk.
Oppenheimer, Fermi, and and Teller are laughing at you klopperoo.
In reply to Appleseed:
I have a man-crush on Nikola Tesla!
klopperoo wrote: In which country did the industrial revolution start? That would be England, they have invented more things than almost all other countries put together...
Sounds like there is some sort of Fox news equivalent in the UK 
Well, since Britain did start it, but that means they also had more time. It is widely silly and naive to call the US second rate though.
Is it still appropriate to call a British Troll a Troll? Or would they be an Ogre or something?
aircooled wrote: Well, since Britain did start it, but that means they also had more time. It is widely silly and naive to call the US second rate though.
Oddly enough, they were still a bit pissy about that whole "deciding to leave the Kingdom" thing and refused to allow any of the technology to go across the Atlantic, so we had to do things our own way.
It was one of the factors in the American Civil War, really... industrialization in the North screwed up the textile trade between There and Here as well as threatening the plantation system in the South. The way it had been working before industrialization was, the cotton was grown in the South, where it was sent to England to be turned into textiles. In return, they sent us poor people from Ireland. After we industrialized, we just did our own textiles by having our Irish work the machinery that we built, driving down the prices of products and making cotton extremely cheap. (note: this is not 100% historically accurate)
As far as cars go, I find it kinda funny that people still think American cars are huge. American cars are not huge. They are the same German and Italian cars sold in the UK, rebadged as American makes. That is why people don't buy cars in the US anymore, they buy trucks.
The wife had me watching Downton Abbey a few weeks ago. I had to laugh when the servants were unhappy at the arrival of a new fangled refrigerator. They didn't feel it could be trusted.
Last I knew, Henry Ford was an American. I think you've seen lots of his cars on British streets.
pres589 wrote: Last I knew, Henry Ford was an American. I think you've seen lots of his cars on British streets.
Ahhhh haaa! But his dad was originally from England!! ( mother was a worthless Belgian ).
Checkmate you silly American! Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!
(I find the idea of a British nationalistic troll quite amusing)
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In reply to DamionLiu:
Well said sir, well said. It's wierd, it's like you're in my head with that post!
You managed to put into words what I've been thinking my entire adult life.
When Mike said that it made my ex- and I laugh hysterically... especially since I was elbow deep in "de-Lucas'ing" her Spitfire with an US made aftermarket harness. If I ever meet Mike in person, words will be exchanged...
Besides, neither American nor British cars have anything on German cars when it comes to dodgey electrics. "We are German, everything we design is perfect. Safety factor? Vhat is das?"
Lucas engineers don't die. They cross the Channel to work for Bosch.
Resident Brit Dork here. I have the advantage of two passports so I can choose both sides of the argument.
In (small) defense of the troll tool, and in addition to these:
klopperoo wrote: I would love a list of American engineering bssed in ww2, prob wouldnt be that long, the greatest would be radar (British) or solving the enigma code (British) the tank (British) reply to ebonyandivory:
There is a very good argument to be made that the first practical atomic bomb was designed by two German refugees in Britain. When war broke out the whole thing was sent to America to prevent it being lost to the Nazi’s if we were invaded. Also all our early rocket technology came from Nazi’s we spirited over here at the end of the war. Let’s not forget Alan Turing and the computer.
But forget all that, I’m proud of both my countries.
I see it like this. The history and geography of Britain has provided a perfect melting pot of invention and innovation that led Britain to be at the front of the industrial revolution and (relative to our population size) still on the leading edge of many technologies. The problem with Britain is twofold. We were the front line defense of the two world wars (WWI started 7/28/14, not 4/6/17 and WWII started 9/1/39 not 12/7/41) We had to borrow massive, I mean really massive amounts of money from the U.S. to pay for the war effort. The final instalment of £59.5 million GBP was made to the US in September 2010. Yes it took 92 years to pay back the US for WWI. Our WWII debt was finally paid off a bit earlier in 2006. Those two wars pretty much bankrupted Britain and it’s never fully recovered. The reparations that Germany had to pay from WWI were a large part of what allowed Hitler to gain control and move the world into WWII. After WWII the Russians took what gold the Germans had, but they then didn’t pay any reparations (Although they were in even worse shape than the UK). The thing is Germany could then rebuild from there. The UK has basically spent ever since then clearing up the debt we spent keeping the world free. Heck, food rationing didn’t end until July 1954
Now, post war over here we were in a much better place. In the 50’s the US represented over 50% of the world’s net worth. The money was flowing like cheap beer that allowed the infrastructure to be built that could sustain the amazing level of innovation and invention that has been in place ever since. That and the GI bill where returning veterans could get a free education that paid massive returns for the Government with a highly educated workforce to drive those innovations. The US was now in the technological lead that it still hasn’t lost.
American cars are just different from European ones. Not better, not worse, just different. Roads here tend to be longer, straighter, wider than in the rest of the world. Resources have been available and fuel dirt cheap so we’ve tended to produce fast cars in a straight line. Our motorsport has tended to favor higher speeds and longer straights (Drag racing and ovals are predominant) so again we’ve excelled in that direction. In Europe the roads are narrower, resources more scarce and fuel 3-5 times more expensive. Also vehicle purchase taxes are way way way lower over here. The tax on a new car in post war Britain was 50% until the mid-60’s. So that meant Europe tended to smaller, more nimble cars. Not better or worse, again just different.
US and European car manufacturers designed cars to the unique situations in their countries. Over here there were no limits or punitive taxes on engine size or fuel consumption so engines developed into big lazy V8’s. In Europe gas was expensive, tax was high and resources scares so they developed smaller more efficient engines. It doesn’t make one philosophy better or worse, just different. Today fuel economy and emissions are far more important, but outside of competition with prescribed rules capacity doesn’t matter. I bet if you were to put a new LSx and a Porsche engine in a wooden crate and just wrote the weight, hp and emissions on the outside 9 out of 10 Europeans would pick the Chevy engine as the Porsche in the mistaken belief that the bigger box had to be the ‘low tech’ Yank boat anchor. Technology is a marvelous thing.
I love Corvettes, I love Mustangs, I love Porsche’s, I’m a car geek not a flag waiving prick.
Did any of that make any sense, off to find coffee!
gee... no derogatory remarks about the Japanese yet.... come on people... your not trying 
Is there really anything actually wrong with Lucas electrics? I've been forming the opinion for years that most of the issues in the US with respect to Lucas issues is dodgy repairs and years of neglect and that in and of themselves there is really not much of an issue. It is just an easy thing to repeat with the catchy prince of darkness slogan.
That being said, I replaced my aging Lucas alternator with its equally aged external voltage regulator for a nice rebuilt delco alternator that has more than double the available output. I also added a real fuse box to rectify that in the original design a good chunk of the hot wires int the car were not fused in anyway other than they would turn off the circuit only after something burned and caused an open circuit.
In reply to T.J.:
IMHO, the main issue with the electrical system on classic LBC's is a general lack of relays to isolate higher loads from control switches. For example, the entire current for the headlights and running lights is routed through the main light switch.
I'm not sure if this is a Lucas issue or a general British car design philosophy.
klopperoo wrote: In which country did the industrial revolution start? That would be england, they have invented more things than almost all other countries put together, England is the capital of world technology, F1 is based in the uk which is the pinnacle of engineering technology, no other motorsport comes close to the expertise of british insight and technology capabilities that F1 projects. America has given very little to advances in respect to technology in this modern world reply to ebonyandivory:
Well, keeping us in the modern world, I have yet to see any significant technology come from England. At least in my arena. Which happens to be automotive.
Each time we've contracted out engineering to an English firm, we had to re-do it, and eventually the work was brought in house. That would be Cosworth, Lotus, and Proton. Terrible work they gave us.
Even now, our advanced and research parts of the firm are here in the US and Germany, not in England. Interesting how that worked out. England was the ones who pushed us to choose a global company's ECU, and then pushed to have that same company do all of the work around the ECU. The first part somehow managed to stick, the second part got a few months into a program until it was forced to stop. Still can't figure why our English team thought that was supposed to be better....
Last time I checked, there were no Engish firms making mass volumes of cars. The closest one could pretend would be Ford of England, since it's been around and different for some time. Otherwise, all of the major factories are from Japan, Korea, and the remaining English companues are owned by everyone else. Heck, even a significant part of Aston Martin is made in Germany.
Things may have been different in WWII. Although it helps if you bury your head in the North African sand. But now, yea, that doesn't really fly with real data. F1 is entertainment, so, yea, England has made huge strides in technolgy to entertain people. Big deal. Sell some cars. F1 hasn't been significant for quite a few decades WRT real world cars.
In reply to T.J.:
In addition to what Ian points out- I suspect that brit cars share one major headache as italians do, and americans do- rust. It's amazing what rust does to electrical systems, preventing them to work. And it does not take much rust to have problems- just enough to mess with the right grounds.
(rust likes bear metal, ironically, so does electrical grounds)
alfadriver wrote: Well, keeping us in the modern world, I have yet to see any significant technology come from England. At least in my arena. Which happens to be automotive.
Seat belts
traffic lights
Most of the F1 teams (Red Bull, Mercedes, McLaren, Force India, Lotus, Caterham, Williams and Marussia) Only Toro Rosso and Ferrari are else where and Ferrari used be there.
Land speed record since 1983
When Indycars were still an open format most chassis came from there.
It was Unions and the LAbor government that killed the British auto industry, not the lack of engineering talent.
Adrian_Thompson wrote:alfadriver wrote: Well, keeping us in the modern world, I have yet to see any significant technology come from England. At least in my arena. Which happens to be automotive.Seat belts traffic lights Most of the F1 teams (Red Bull, Mercedes, McLaren, Force India, Lotus, Caterham, Williams and Marussia) Only Toro Rosso and Ferrari are else where and Ferrari used be there. Land speed record since 1983 When Indycars were still an open format most chassis came from there. It was Unions and the LAbor government that killed the British auto industry, not the lack of engineering talent.
IMHO, modern race cars do not count- outside of bragging rights and entertaiment, they add nothing to real world use.
As for the traffic light, I had read it was originally in New England somewhere- but it's not really modern. Which english airplane first had a seat belt? that's where it came from. not a car.
As for what killed the english auto industry- one can call it a fight between unions and management. But unions and managemnt make cars in the UK- just with Ford, Nissan, Honda, and Toyota badges on them. So that doesn't fly that well.
Engineering wise, I really got a bad taste for English engineering firms when I had the pleasure to work with them. IMHO, it's sourced in the very classed structure of engineering status that's the real problem. But outside of the sphere of engineering for entertainment, cost be damned, yea.. well.... I'll say no more.
alfadriver wrote: Which english airplane first had a seat belt?
Which brings to mind, who engineered the first flying machine?
RealMiniDriver wrote:alfadriver wrote: Which english airplane first had a seat belt?Which brings to mind, who engineered the first flying machine?
A Russian, apparently. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozhaysky's_airplane
alfadriver wrote: IMHO, modern race cars do not count- outside of bragging rights and entertaiment, they add nothing to real world use.
Nothing to the real world? I think 25,000 Engineering jobs (Engineers, not all the other related jobs). 4,500 plus companies and $10USD BILLION turnover is some serious real world impact to the British economy.
Adrian_Thompson wrote:alfadriver wrote: IMHO, modern race cars do not count- outside of bragging rights and entertaiment, they add nothing to real world use.Nothing to the real world? I think 25,000 Engineering jobs (Engineers, not all the other related jobs). 4,500 plus companies and $10USD BILLION turnover is some serious real world impact to the British economy.
For racing? Ok, that is significant. But if that is just F1, then I seriously question the allocation of talent all for entertainment. Just sayin.
Put that amount of effort to design and build Rovers in the UK, then the movement of the entire plant to China may not have happened. And it would provide transportation to hundreds of thousands of customers, and all the add ons to society from there. But I digress.
My point still stands- adding technology to consumer vehicles hasn't happened from the UK for quite some time. Especially in the realm of technology I work in.
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