Why aren't there more rwd cars?

ebonyandivory wrote:

AverageH wrote: Life is too short for under-steer. -Hamid

Quoted for hilarity!!!

aussiesmg wrote: BTW do they have the same geometry, if not it's all moot

if this is a required criteria for comparing car performance, I guess pretty much all car vs. car comparisons in any context can be ruled out....

congratulations, you have eliminated the need for automotive discussions on the internet

nicksta43 wrote: I have two decently large ice covered hills on the road that I live on. My wife ('12 Elantra on fresh all seasons) couldn't make it and parked in a neighbors drive at the bottom of the hill. I came right up and over it in a 2wd F150 with no weight in the back on ancient all seasons. I walked back down to get her car, backed it all the way to the beginning of the road to get a run and barely avoided the front end washing off the side of the road. I hate FWD with a passion.

Nick, I am a true RWD guy, but my 2011 Elantra with snows is a truck, it goes anywhere, in anything almost always at the speed limit. Those OEM tires suck big time, find a used set of snows and marvel at the car's true ability.

Remember I transport passengers in mine every day in all conditions.

(He says from Key West on vacation )

I am just saying that drive wheels have no effect on whether a car is fun to drive. There are terrible to drive RWD cars (Crown Vic comes to mind) and terrible FWD cars. There are fun to drive FWD cars (MK1 VWs and double wishbone Civics) and fun to drive RWD cars (Spitfire). Anyone who says that a FWD car can't be fun to drive is talking out there ass...

I will never feel comfortable with any FWD car in slippery conditions. True snow tires will make anything a tank but I cannot mentally get over the fact that when you do lose traction you also lose steering. That's why when the truck lost traction I added just a touch of counter steering and gently eased off the throttle, and it really was drama free. In th FWD death trap, not only did it lose traction earlier but as soon as it did the front end washed over and nearly went off the edge of the road due to the roads camber.

Where I felt completely in control of the truck, I felt totally out of control in the car. Maybe it's just that I feel more comfortable with over steer than under steer?

The combination of cheap, better interior packaging and numb driver better with understeer than oversteer are the reasons the mfgs prefer FWD. I am a RWD fanboi and always will be, I like having the steering and driving functions separate from each other. In snow (or what passes for snow down here) a decent 50/50 weight distribution makes this a moot point. My old Courier pickup was a feather in the rear and thus quite exciting in snow but the RWD Trooper doesn't seem to care. In fact, it's better in the snow than my last FWD daily (the GTi) was.

Now, having said that, the FWD LeMons cars I have driven were pretty decent but that's because they were set up to be loose like a RWD car. It's still possible to overload a front tire or two on the ultimate ragged edge by steering and accelerating at the same time, though and that's something I have never liked.

In reply to nicksta43: Be that as it may, your wife drives that car, get her some snows, seriously

Not for our one snow event a year. Her tires have less than 1000 miles on them. She could have made it with more momentum but was to timid. We'll just stay home today.

93EXCivic wrote: I am just saying that drive wheels have no effect on whether a car is fun to drive. There are terrible to drive RWD cars (Crown Vic comes to mind) and terrible FWD cars. There are fun to drive FWD cars (MK1 VWs and double wishbone Civics) and fun to drive RWD cars (Spitfire). Anyone who says that a FWD car can't be fun to drive is talking out there ass...

Should we start talking about how boring rwd dump trucks are too while we're at it? Sure, as I said before I have had some fun in fwd cars, but in the end they are not nearly as fun; They're annoying. Double wishbone econo-civic or not, the fronts are doing everything. The good ones are rwd emulators, so what's the point? Besides, didn't you create a post not too long ago complaining about how bored you were of your civic? Maybe it wasn't because it was fwd, but then again it could have been one of the reasons but you didn't know it . Seriously, it's great that people enjoy those things. That leaves more of the rwd and 4wd ones for me. I had my share and lack of fun. Fwd burnouts? How cool. 400hp to the front wheels? Needs to drive backwards to put the power to the ground. I just don't see the point from a performance standpoint.

-Hamid

In reply to turboswede:

Thanks. I didn't realize the forum automatically substituted some profanity.

In reply to AverageH:

No offense intended, but you are proving 93ex right by your last post. Not all FWD cars are fun, just like not all RWD cars are fun, which is also just like not all AWD cars are fun. All drive types have some type of FUN car existing within their respective ranks. Sometimes you can make a boring pedestrian car of whatever drive type fun as well.

In reply to Mr_Clutch42:

berkeley Bob Costas shiny happy person E36 M3

AverageH wrote: Sure, as I said before I have had some fun in fwd cars, but in the end they are not nearly as fun; They're annoying. Double wishbone econo-civic or not, the fronts are doing everything. The good ones are rwd emulators, so what's the point? Besides, didn't you create a post not too long ago complaining about how bored you were of your civic?

I was mostly ranting about it being old and broken. Anyway I still have it and I bought another, a '99 SI. I have a blast autocrossing the '84 Sciricco and my '93 Civic. Both of which are IMHO examples of when FWD is awesome. Plus read my earlier post, I drove my '93 Civic back to back with a '90 Miata and bought the Civic cause I thought the Civic was more fun.

Now for heavier cars with more power, RWD is the only way to go but lightweight low powered FWD cars can be a blast.

93EXCivic wrote: I am just saying that drive wheels have no effect on whether a car is fun to drive. There are terrible to drive RWD cars (Crown Vic comes to mind) and terrible FWD cars. There are fun to drive FWD cars (MK1 VWs and double wishbone Civics) and fun to drive RWD cars (Spitfire). Anyone who says that a FWD car can't be fun to drive is talking out there ass...

I would add Classic Saab 900s to that list.. especially the turbo ones. With their front double A arm front suspensions and equal length shafts, you can almost forget what end is driven.

I have been driving FWD cars primarily for many, many years and I have yet to under steer off the road in the worst weather. Have nearly lost it from over steer though.

In reply to iceracer:

And I've never driven one in adverse conditions that didn't try to understeer off the road. Hell I tried for over thirty minutes to get my mom's Riviera away from the curb on a heavily cambered road to no avail. Gave up, hoped in my Trans Am parked directly behind it on the street, and drove to school on three inches of fresh snow over a half inch layer of ice. Your point is?

Cost, packaging, and weight in that order, but that has all been said so here is a picture.

Adrian_Thompson wrote: In reply to OldGray320i: Try a good fwd car on an autocross course, track or twisting road. There is a lot of fun to be had trailbraking into a corner, feeling the car rotate at the apex then power out.it's a different sensation to RWD but can be just as satisfying. Different, but just as satisfying

This I would agree with to the point that I think RWD is a bit better to do such - first autocross ever was with the Focus; pretty competent, and with the right application of lift throttle I could get the rotation I wanted, and it was satisfying. But anytime I can get to the edge and maintain control that is so.

Where my problem was is that in mild understeer I have a tendancy to tap the brakes real good to plant the front and rotate the rear - but the FWD mass just completely overpowered grip and caused massive understeer.

I spent my formative years in a Datsun Z-car on Glendora Ridge Road, 26 miles of fairly tight twists and turns, fairly autocross like (and almost never another car on the road - but could be overly exciting when there was...), and there are many techniques that I learned to employ. Perhaps not all of them translate with FWD...

In reply to OldGray320i:

You can't drive them the same.....I think that is most peoples problem with this. For example, I learned autoxing with a fukus(the autotradgic DD I currently have again) and at first was the same way, then I learned smoothness along with a light stab of the brakes for tight corners.

Heck, I consider myself a rwd elitest yet own 3 fwd cars....they aren't that bad.

OldGray320i wrote: This I would agree with to the point that I think RWD is a bit better to do such

I don't see it as better, I see it as different. I like Pink Floyd, I like Opera, they are different not better or worse than each other.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson:

You are wrong, Pink Floyd is better than Opera.

I agree Pink Floyd is better than opera but there's room for both in this world.

OTOH, FWD should be banned.

I like Opera better than Pink Floyd

nicksta43 wrote: In reply to iceracer: And I've never driven one in adverse conditions that didn't try to understeer off the road. Hell I tried for over thirty minutes to get my mom's Riviera away from the curb on a heavily cambered road to no avail. Gave up, hoped in my Trans Am parked directly behind it on the street, and drove to school on three inches of fresh snow over a half inch layer of ice. Your point is?

Experience over many years as stated. One or two events don't count.

I didn't used to like Pink Floyd, but have learned to appreciate them more. Perhaps it will be the same with FWD.

I don't know about Opera, but I don't really like Oprah.

And I'll forever prefer RWD. You can't teach old habits new tricks to die hard dogs...

And I do like my new Focus even if it's a bit hard to maintain it.

nicksta43 wrote: I will never feel comfortable with any FWD car in slippery conditions. True snow tires will make anything a tank but I cannot mentally get over the fact that when you do lose traction you also lose steering. That's why when the truck lost traction I added just a touch of counter steering and gently eased off the throttle, and it really was drama free. In th FWD death trap, not only did it lose traction earlier but as soon as it did the front end washed over and nearly went off the edge of the road due to the roads camber. Where I felt completely in control of the truck, I felt totally out of control in the car. Maybe it's just that I feel more comfortable with over steer than under steer?

You sound just like I did 10 years ago.

I was wrong, too.