WHY do people do crap like this?

My son Aaron found that Fiat in the junk yard.. I can vouch for its poor condition. That car owes Aaron, Andy and the rest of our team it's life. Andy still owns it, but only until he gives me a number for the rolling chassis. Yes, I am one of the people who love that car. Honestly, this whole thread is an age old argument and it will never be resolved. There are just as many people who will cut up a rare car for the pure shock of it as there are that would do it because it's the only real way to save it. It's just metal guys...

wheels777 wrote: We pulled a Fiat out of a junk yard from the row of cars to be crushed. The car did not have an E&T, the rear was not original, the car was starting to fold in half at the footwell because of rust. We called the President of the car club that supports these cars and he said make a race car out of it, it does not have value except as scrap and the removable top. We sold every possible part off to others with a 118G. And, turned it into this... The car was going to be crushed in days had it not been "trashed".

Which is EXACTLY WHY I refused to be baited by the questions about the Fiat. It WAS a pile of scrap. You made it into a car again. I have zero problem with that, never had, never will.

It's a completely different story from taking a slim and lovely Integra Type R and making a fat crossdresser out of it. The inherent value of what makes an ITR an ITR was utterly, totally, and completely irrelevant to the final product. So WHY START THERE?

That's my question. It doesn't matter what I think about the final product; I agree that as long as my name is not on the title, it's not my business. I'm just laboring to understand the thought process behind going out of your way to start with something that is so completely different from your desired final product? Especially when that something is rare and valuable as is?

I mean if you look at it, how many good MR2 Turbos were riced within an inch of their lives and CRX's as well. If you look forward now, they are approaching the collectible corner in the same way that tiger is.

This is the main reason I try and get the least valuable version of a car to mod.

But I know 2 of my cars which were rare both ended in the junkyard due to old age and 200K+ miles. 1989 Dodge Colt GT Turbo and a 1992 Integra GSR. Both with under 2000 or so made.

I look at it this way, It's your car and it's only metal. If someone wants to rebuild it what is the difference from something like this vs. a rusty hunk pulled from a field or a barn. Both will need extensive metal work to get it right. As long as the car is intact, it can live to see another day.

Duke wrote: **The inherent value of what makes an ITR an ITR was utterly, totally, and completely irrelevant to the final product.**

From your perspective, this is true. But it's those whose opinions run counter to our own, challenging our own ideas, that can often teach us the most. We will never be able to genuinely develop a greater understanding and awareness, if we can't be bothered to open our minds and experience the world from their point of view first.

Duke wrote:

wheels777 wrote: We pulled a Fiat out of a junk yard from the row of cars to be crushed. The car did not have an E&T, the rear was not original, the car was starting to fold in half at the footwell because of rust. We called the President of the car club that supports these cars and he said make a race car out of it, it does not have value except as scrap and the removable top. We sold every possible part off to others with a 118G. And, turned it into this... The car was going to be crushed in days had it not been "trashed".

Which is EXACTLY WHY I refused to be baited by the questions about the Fiat. It WAS a pile of scrap. You made it into a car again. I have zero problem with that, never had, never will.

But you assume the condition of the Tiger. And then rant over it. It could have been really rusty, too- since the rear of the car was tubbed.

Are you the car police or something? Do we need to ask you permission before starting a challenge car?

"The hard work is done"... "Should easily run 9's"

Someone is a little unfamiliar with reality.

A 289 Hipo (assuming it is one- VERY unlikely) would make about 260 HP. Perhaps you could tweak it to 300.

In a 2000 lb car, that is a 12 second car.

Plus, I don't think he will be making any 9 second runs with a 6 point cage with bubble gum welds on it.

But to the point... it's his car. I am all for him enjoying it (and I have been known to do some unholy things to cars too). If he'd like to chop it up, it just adds value to other collectable Tigers.

I find it amusing that he has "over $20K invested" in that non-running heap, and Andy built that gorgeous Fiat for 10% of that number!

In reply to SVreX:

That's why it's a non running heap, you can have all the money in the world, and your hot rod will still be a POS if you don't understand how to pick out all the parts to work together well.

I never even knew that these Fiats existed until Andy's Challenge car came along, and I drive past one every day on my way to work. I always thought it was an MGB. And I've owned MGBs! So for that reason alone, I am glad that this Fiat was saved.

They're just cars...

My SVX was saved from a crusher too. It was next in line.

I got a lot of grief from Subaru purists for stuff I did to that car.

Oh well.

I would ask them if they thought it would be better to crush it.

Car made 3 different national magazines, including a 12 page feature article, completely on a Challenge budget.

Many if them thought I ruined the car. I felt I gave it new life, and saved it from the crusher.

Different strokes.

OK, there's something subtle I must be failing to communicate here, because nobody seems to be quite grasping my point correctly. I give up. Have a nice day.

I understand what you are saying sir.

I agree with you also.

However, I also see why we shouldn't give a E36 M3 about what other people do with their own property.

Not nearly in the same league as you folks, but I feel just fine re-building this MGA into a drag/autocross car . . .

http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/restore/rt309.htm

They can't all be restored or correctly resurrected, some just end up being re-built into something else.

In reply to TeamEvil:

http://hudsonvalley.craigslist.org/cto/4753234430.html

Duke wrote: ...because nobody seems to be *quite* grasping my point correctly.

...Or vice versa.

Duke wrote: Assuming we're talking about the same car (and that my understanding is correct), that settles the Tiger question. What about my Type R example? An ITR was *never* just "an old furrin car" here. It's always been something special to drive, and always been known for what it is. So how do you justify *specifically picking one* to make something like this? Note the 5-lug hubs.

My first thought is it sounds like there's some unrequited love for an ITR driving this argument.

My second thought seeing the one in the photos is its not something I would drive but its the owners money, so he can do what he wants with it as long as it makes him happy.

As for the ITR being a special car, maybe so, but I must be old since really don't view it the same as if someone did that to a chrome bumper vette.

In reply to jstand:

I agree. Sucks for the ITR, who cares about a chrome bumpered Vette anyways

Driven5 wrote:

Duke wrote: **The inherent value of what makes an ITR an ITR was utterly, totally, and completely irrelevant to the final product.**

From your perspective, this is true. But it's those whose opinions run counter to our own, challenging our own ideas, that can often teach us the most. We will never be able to genuinely develop a greater understanding and awareness, if we can't be bothered to open our minds and experience the world from their point of view first.

That's some berkeleying deep enlightened E36 M3 man. I still agree 100% with Duke on this rare occasion.

It doesn't matter. It was probably done long ago when they weren't worth anything and if they become valuable enough someone will make it original, you always can.

Just look at the classic ferrari owners, they will build a car around half a dash and a Vin tag.

Guys ad is dumb but I don't care that it was chopped up because if it's got a title and a Vin tag it can be fixed.

I would have no problem modifying any car I owned.

Driven5 wrote:

Duke wrote: ...because nobody seems to be *quite* grasping my point correctly.

...Or vice versa.

No, I understand everybody else's point, and I even agree with it to large extent. If my name's not on the title it's not my car; it's theirs to do with as they please. As both a big-L and small-l libertarian, I'm all about individual property rights. That's why I say I am failing to make my point accurately.

In reply to Nick_Comstock:

Thanks, I guess.

TR8owner wrote: I owned a Tiger back in the day when it was considered cool to modify them, the more mods the better. They were a car that lended themselves very much to this. There is probably no car group that has gone from being fun beer drinkin' hot rod guys to hang out with than to being now totally anal than with the Tiger owners. In the old days a converted V8 Alpine was welcomed into the family but nowadays its mostly all about original radio knobs, etc. I miss the good old days but don't miss the Tiger. They really weren't that good of cars, especially in stock configuration.

Oh the irony of this discussion. A guy from Texas put a Ford V-8 in a perfectly fine British sports car. At the time they were introduced, in many people's opinion including mine, the outcome has never been nearly as good a car as the Alpine it started out being. I have driven several Tigers, some "stock Tigers", which I consider an oxymoron, and some hugely changed from off the shelf. I have never understood their popularity either way.

By Shelby's intent, a Tiger was a bastard when the first one was made and sold. After that, it's just a matter of who bastardizes it next. Drag Race, LeMons Race, do whatever with it, what difference does it make?

alfadriver wrote: Would you think the same thing had he done this to a very rare and attractive Fiat? Perhaps like this car?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think the Sunbeam Alpine is a much more attractive and driveable car than any Tiger I ever saw or drove. I feel they should be worth more as well.

In reply to Duke:

So your point is NOT about struggling to understand the reasons somebody would choose a particular uncommon car as the starting point for modifications that do not align well with what you personally believe makes said car desirable? Surely you can see how that might be confusing, since that was what your posts appeared, and were specifically stated, to be about.

By process of elimination then, your point must be that the ITR was hand crafted in the heavens as a divine gift to the baby Jesus himself. WWJD = What Would Jesus Drive? = ITR

Yesterday I went to a flea market in the morning, delivered a trans for a friend, then went to a junk yard in the middle of the day. I stopped by the home of a friend from High School on the way back. Doug has not been able to sell his 1955 Ford Victoria. Ultimately, a few weeks ago, he contacted a scrapper to come pick up the car from his driveway. The scrapper would only give him between $285 to $300, with $293 being the quoted amount.

The car is in poor condition, but has many parts including sheet metal from a parted donor. AND, it has a 390 C6 sitting in it. He said it is free to someone who will fix it up because he would prefer to lose a few dollars rather than see it crushed. The purists will scream while I laugh with the wheels in the air.

1 - any owner can do whatever he likes to his own car

2 - the rest of us get to complain and bitch about it if we want, but it doesn't affect the validity of 1 above.

I've seen some horrid miscegenations carried out in the name of creativity. I've seen a Fiat 1500 OSCA (rare DOHC engined car) with a 289 stuffed in it. I've seen a Maserati 3500 with the roof cut off (guy apparently wanted a convertible) the perfectly good original engine junked and a 327 stuffed in it. Hard not to comment when something like that crosses your path

I don't really care what anyone does to their own car. But I do have to question that persons decision making. I would feel the same way if that ITR was made into a drag car. If you are planning to build a drag car why in the world would you start with a car that has numerous parts and pieces that have been tweaked and tuned for handling. The same thing for a late second Gen WS6 T/A. The quicker ratio steering box, sway bars and four wheel disk brakes do nothing for you in a quarter mile, why would you start with that when a firebird would be lighter and cheaper and you're going to be replacing all that good stuff anyway. Those are both cars that were specifically designed and built with handling in mind. They are a rarity. Don't be a dumbass and use them as a base platform for a drag/show car build when there are millions of other examples of the same platforms that are better suited for that purpose.