Why is drifting more popular than autocross?

Duke said:

alfadriver said:

If we had 30 people show up at an autocross, we'd get tons of seat time, too.  Just that it would not be run until you are exhausted or broken.  Just 15 at a time....

I put, usually, 70-75 drivers through one of our autocross events.  At 60-70, I can offer 7 runs in a typical day.  If I get 75 or more drivers, I have to cut it back to 6 runs.  So, doing simple math implies that 35 autocross drivers should get 14 runs in the same amount of time, but that just doesn't happen, as we all know well.  If I had 35 drivers I could probably give them 8 or 9 runs in a day.  So, rounding off, lets say that's 10 minutes of actual on-course seat time.

Drifting on the same size lot, our drivers probably get 20 or 30 runs per session, with morning and afternoon sessions and a course redesign at the lunch break.  On-course seat time at one of our drift events is measured in hours, with the same theoretical 35 drivers.

I agree that drifting doesn't appeal to me personally, either as a driver or spectator.  I also think burnouts are stupid.  But if I don't have the patience to deal with a rule book, don't have the desire to compete against a stopwatch, don't care about tearing my E36 M3 up, and just want to wail around, it's easy for me to see why drifting is popular.  Plus, it's immediately and directly interesting to your average drive-by spectator.

Those are the numbers I would estimate, too.  And after 15 runs, I really would be exhausted.  Or more correctly, I have been exhausted after 15 runs.

For those of you who pay $50 for 3-4 runs, you need to get out more.  Last event I ran may have been a while ago, but ordinary people would show up and for $25, you would get 4-6 runs depending on the turn out.  $20 if you were a member of a local car club, and $15 if you were an AROC member.  And the last usually got you free fun runs.

BUT, that's not actually why I'm posting- Duke, you have now twice posted 70 autocrossers to 30 drifters (It took me a sec to see that).  Last math class I took, I could swear 70>30.  Which is to say, to participants, autocrossing is still more popular.  Is there a national drifting even that brings together ~1000 drivers for most of a week?

So lets not jump the gun on which is more popular.

In reply to alfadriver :

We're serving an area that is in the middle of a wasteland (by East Coast standards), and we are the first club to offer drift events within a >2-hour drive from our location.  2017 was our first full season.  I expect our 2018 turnout will only increase.  We have lost 4-5 regular autocrossers to The Dark Side already, if not more.  Including at least 1 guy who used to bring his W2W race car out to autocross, just to get creamed because of his  Solo II classing.  With drift, he can just unwind and practice his car control and recovery, instead of losing his class.

Incidentally, $50 for 4 runs is a pretty standard SCCA rate for autocross at any major or semi-major region these days.  And many smaller clubs, such as local PCA or BMWCCA chapters, are losing venues left and right.  BMC is a small, regional club and we offer autocrosses at $40/$45 per day, with typically 6 runs (7 if we're lucky).

On the original topic, which I tried to touch on, but probably failed:

I agree that the reason AX videos don't get watched and drift videos do is largely generational.  This is a generation of younger enthusiasts who grew up online and watching Intitial D, among other titles.  Many of them were car enthusiasts first, who had real automotive experience before they found the drift scene.  But many, many of them are younger folks making the transition from manga and video games to the real, hands-on automotive world.  So, yeah, video of a guy changing out his steeering knuckles for some coolio high-angle overnight parts from Japan is interesting to them.  They're soaking up new knowledge like sponges, when many (if not most) autocrossers already have this stuff in our repertoire.

alfadriver said:

Duke said:

alfadriver said:

If we had 30 people show up at an autocross, we'd get tons of seat time, too.  Just that it would not be run until you are exhausted or broken.  Just 15 at a time....

I put, usually, 70-75 drivers through one of our autocross events.  At 60-70, I can offer 7 runs in a typical day.  If I get 75 or more drivers, I have to cut it back to 6 runs.  So, doing simple math implies that 35 autocross drivers should get 14 runs in the same amount of time, but that just doesn't happen, as we all know well.  If I had 35 drivers I could probably give them 8 or 9 runs in a day.  So, rounding off, lets say that's 10 minutes of actual on-course seat time.

Drifting on the same size lot, our drivers probably get 20 or 30 runs per session, with morning and afternoon sessions and a course redesign at the lunch break.  On-course seat time at one of our drift events is measured in hours, with the same theoretical 35 drivers.

I agree that drifting doesn't appeal to me personally, either as a driver or spectator.  I also think burnouts are stupid.  But if I don't have the patience to deal with a rule book, don't have the desire to compete against a stopwatch, don't care about tearing my E36 M3 up, and just want to wail around, it's easy for me to see why drifting is popular.  Plus, it's immediately and directly interesting to your average drive-by spectator.

Those are the numbers I would estimate, too.  And after 15 runs, I really would be exhausted.  Or more correctly, I have been exhausted after 15 runs.

For those of you who pay $50 for 3-4 runs, you need to get out more.  Last event I ran may have been a while ago, but ordinary people would show up and for $25, you would get 4-6 runs depending on the turn out.  $20 if you were a member of a local car club, and $15 if you were an AROC member.  And the last usually got you free fun runs.

BUT, that's not actually why I'm posting- Duke, you have now twice posted 70 autocrossers to 30 drifters (It took me a sec to see that).  Last math class I took, I could swear 70>30.  Which is to say, to participants, autocrossing is still more popular.  Is there a national drifting even that brings together ~1000 drivers for most of a week?

So lets not jump the gun on which is more popular.

1000 drivers a week? how about multiple times a year? check youtube for "gridlife"

Also, it may not be that folks want to charge $50 for an event but that's the reality. I'm fairly active in our local autocross community and we have a non affiliated group that charge $20 for club members typically 5-6 runs and if you sign up for things like tech or timing you get to run for free.

On the flip side to that? I'm the regional chair for our local SCCA chapter and honestly, we're pretty shoe horned.

Right off the top the SCCA charges us:

$6.50 per driver for sanction fees,
$6.50 per driver for insurance
heaven help us if you aren't a SCCA member? it's $10 per driver for that, We the club eat half of the weekend member fee for our non members because the whole point is to bring new people in right?
Trophies are around $5 each as well and we give out 1 for every 4 cars so that's another $1.25 per person.

So now the SCCA is already up to about $25 per person before we even do things like pay for the parking lot (anywhere from $1000-2500 around us) which makes it pretty impossible to charge $20 per entrant.  
And the whole reason I volunteered as the SCCA chair? our local non affiliated club cannot get the insurance coverage required to run some of the most awesome places in our area like the Grattan Road course autocross or MI Adventure which is a monster 100k+ square foot parking lot. These venues simply wouldn't even be an option without the national umbrella that the SCCA provides.

Lastly, I started doing this stuff back around 2007, the local club was still $20 and the SCCA was still around $50 back then, it hasn't changed in now 11 years? compared with the cost of inflation for everything else. I'd say both are still a bargin.

In reply to Duke :

It will be interesting to see how drifting popularity among participants changes over time.  I still think that the idea of drifting being more popular than autocrossing does not agree with the participant numbers, and it won't for some time.  Heck, even the number of tv shows that have drifting has fallen off, even on the obscure sports channels.  They still show multiple road racing series, though.

alfadriver said:

In reply to Duke :

It will be interesting to see how drifting popularity among participants changes over time.  I still think that the idea of drifting being more popular than autocrossing does not agree with the participant numbers, and it won't for some time.  Heck, even the number of tv shows that have drifting has fallen off, even on the obscure sports channels.  They still show multiple road racing series, though.

 

And to back that up, I googled drifting in south east michigan- the first link was this https://mdudrift.com/

Who announced that they are ceasing operation 2 months ago due to low participation.

alfadriver said:

alfadriver said:

In reply to Duke :

It will be interesting to see how drifting popularity among participants changes over time.  I still think that the idea of drifting being more popular than autocrossing does not agree with the participant numbers, and it won't for some time.  Heck, even the number of tv shows that have drifting has fallen off, even on the obscure sports channels.  They still show multiple road racing series, though.

 

And to back that up, I googled drifting in south east michigan- the first link was this https://mdudrift.com/

Who announced that they are ceasing operation 2 months ago due to low participation.

Okay, a small sample in an area that isn't exactly the hotbed of drifting. Our SCCA chapter had 100 car attendance at every event less than 10 years ago. Now we are lucky if we get 40. Two years ago our chapter was only $0.50 in the black. Does that mean that autocross as a whole is dying?

In reply to NickD :

Could be, but drifting died before autocross.  The DCSCC still sanctions events between MSCC, CCM, and AROC in Metro Detroit.  So that at least tells me that the appeal of autocrossing HERE is much higher than drifting.  

And I would not call that a small sample size- they seem to cover a pretty wide area, where there are a lot of different driving choices in the mid-west.

All I'm trying to point out that the data shows that autocrossing is still more popular than drifting.  Which has been brought up a few times as examples in this thread, as well.  And as a TV spectator sport, road racing still way out numbers drifting shows.

So I'm trying to find any evidence that demonstrates the original theory.

Locally, autocross is far more popular from a participant point of view but I get a sense from the local car scene that drift is more well known and gets the admiration from the youth.  There is a whole culture of drift which includes styling cues of the cars (tow hooks, zip tied fenders, etc), lifestyle choices of the people (vaping), clothing styles, hair styles and even the kind of entertainment people are into. Autocross has no such culture and you would be hard pressed to identify an autocrosser by anything other than a sticker on the car or a t-shirt from a big event.

# of people who care about autocross / # of people who participate in autocross = approximately 1.0

# of people who care about drifting / # of people who participate in drifting = a lot

# of people who are about drifting / # of people who care about autocross = a lot (by my estimate)

In reply to loosecannon :

And we get back to the central point of the thread!

Seems like to get a ton of views, you need some enthusiasm from folks who aren't participants, or even in-person spectators. You need some drift buzz to rub off on you.

Apart from a few suggestions to try to get the video named or otherwise associated such that it'll wind up in the "suggested links" of a person watching drift videos... I know it's a long way from the purpose of the build, but have you considered the earnest and full-depth way to get drift eyeballs: take the MGB drifting?

Perhaps you are the bridge from drift to autocross.

Why is Drifting more popular that auto cross???

I will just leave this here.

I will concede that at a pro level, Formula Drift participation is at an all-time low, with them failing to make a full 32 car field the entire '17 season. BUT, viewership/attendance is at a high. And while the number of drivers is down, the quality of drivers is through the roof, with guys like James Deane and Piotr Wiecek making the trip from Europe to see how they stack up against the Americans. I remember going to FD NJ in 2012 and having 54 cars qualifying for a 32 car field. This year there was 28. But in 2012, of those 54, only about 20 of them could complete the course without major errors and only 5 or 6 of them were really in contention for an event win or a championship. Of the 28 this year, almost all of them could have won an event and the Top 10 was in constant flux.

I would say that a big part of FD's participation issue is less the sport of drifting's fault, as well, and more the fault of FD as a sanctioning body. FD is notorious for not paying large purses to drivers, with many saying that an event win barely breaks even with the cost of running that event. They are also infamously nebulous on their judging calls, which is often perceived as favoritism towards certain drivers (*cough* Chris Forsberg *cough*). It could very well be favoritism, but if it isn't, they need to make clear why they came to the ruling decision they did so that they don't piss of fans and drivers (Forrest Wang, incredibly talented driver, quit for this very reason)

And the evolution of the pro drift car also hurt the sport. One car in particular is really responsible for this: Daigo Saito's Bridges Racing/Achilles Radial Toyota Soarer

In the 2012 season, when this car arrived, the average FD Pro car still had a radiator in the front, anywhere from 600-800hp, plenty of OEM sheetmetal and full trunk floors and sheetmetal structure ahead of the shock towers, 55 degrees of steering angle, OEM differentials and transmission, and could go for multiple matchups on tires. Then Daigo Saito arrived with this nuclear bomb of a car, with a 1200hp 2JZ, G-Force 4-speed dog box and quick-change rear end, rear mount radiator, tube structures in the front and rear, tons of angle. And it changed the sport almost overnight.

He laid waste to the competition because the car was such overkill. With so much more power and grip and less weight than the competition, in the lead run he could just power away from the competition and run and hide. In the chase position, he outpowered everyone so he could just mat it and run up on their door. And the car, between the power and aero chewed through tires and had to have new ones every two runs or they would come apart.

Come the '13 season and now, to compete, everyone had to have 4-digit power, and 75 degrees of steering angle, and completely gutted with fiberglass or carbon bodywork. And now, with tire consumption through the roof, you had to have a major tire sponsor or you would bankrupt yourself to compete. And suddenly all the privateers got squeezed out of existence, because they couldn't afford to build a car to the new standard and they couldn't afford to buy tires at the rate they would burn through them. 

The solution is that FD should put a limit on tire usage, make it so that they can only use so many tires per event. That would force guys to back down on the power and aero. Maybe require the usage of more OEM components. But the problem is then the cars would be slower and have less angle and make less smoke and be generally less interesting to the average viewer. 

In reply to Ransom :

I'll give you some insider info. I am going to take the Pink Panther as far as I can, hopefully 1st or 2nd in EMod then I want to sell it and start a Datsun 510 build that will be even better documented than the MGB. I want to build it to SM or XP rules, keep it street legal and build with a nod to drifting with things like a hydro brake, big wing and flashy graphics. As far as my YouTube followers will know, it's going to be a drift car and I will drift it but I also want to go to SCCA Solo Nationals with it because I love that event. Just imagine a widebody 510 with a built SR20DET.

NickD said:

 They are also infamously nebulous on their judging calls, which is often perceived as favoritism towards certain drivers (*cough* Chris Forsberg *cough*). It could very well be favoritism, but if it isn't, they need to make clear why they came to the ruling decision they did so that they don't piss of fans and drivers (Forrest Wang, incredibly talented driver, quit for this very reason)

 

Participates in figure skating, get's mad when judging doesn't go there way. This one of the reasons I have basically no interest in the "sport." 

loosecannon said:

In reply to Ransom :

I'll give you some insider info. I am going to take the Pink Panther as far as I can, hopefully 1st or 2nd in EMod then I want to sell it and start a Datsun 510 build that will be even better documented than the MGB. I want to build it to SM or XP rules, keep it street legal and build with a nod to drifting with things like a hydro brake, big wing and flashy graphics. As far as my YouTube followers will know, it's going to be a drift car and I will drift it but I also want to go to SCCA Solo Nationals with it because I love that event. Just imagine a widebody 510 with a built SR20DET.

Seems like way too much effort just to run up a score on the YouTube interface. Accept that popular and good are usually not the same thing, and just do what you like.

You'll never beat the Kardashians.

loosecannon said:

Locally, autocross is far more popular from a participant point of view but I get a sense from the local car scene that drift is more well known and gets the admiration from the youth.  There is a whole culture of drift which includes styling cues of the cars (tow hooks, zip tied fenders, etc), lifestyle choices of the people (vaping), clothing styles, hair styles and even the kind of entertainment people are into. Autocross has no such culture and you would be hard pressed to identify an autocrosser by anything other than a sticker on the car or a t-shirt from a big event.

All that tells me is that marketers are trying to see an opportunity where there may not be one.  All of that life style stuff and they are losing participants.  

Whereas autocross has no real "life style" movement around it- just a bunch of people who are obsessed with it.  And some places are gaining participation.  

Kind of points out that having a "movement" or "life style" isn't actually needed if it's fun to do by most. 

Still, none of that points to any data that shows that drifting is more popular than autocrossing.  It's popular in it's own way, and that's just fine for the participants.

this whole thread can be summed up in one phrase

"HEY YOU KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN!"

let the kids have their fun, different strokes for different folks.

NickD said:

I will concede that at a pro level, Formula Drift participation is at an all-time low, with them failing to make a full 32 car field the entire '17 season. BUT, viewership/attendance is at a high. And while the number of drivers is down, the quality of drivers is through the roof, with guys like James Deane and Piotr Wiecek making the trip from Europe to see how they stack up against the Americans. I remember going to FD NJ in 2012 and having 54 cars qualifying for a 32 car field. This year there was 28. But in 2012, of those 54, only about 20 of them could complete the course without major errors and only 5 or 6 of them were really in contention for an event win or a championship. Of the 28 this year, almost all of them could have won an event and the Top 10 was in constant flux.

I would say that a big part of FD's participation issue is less the sport of drifting's fault, as well, and more the fault of FD as a sanctioning body. FD is notorious for not paying large purses to drivers, with many saying that an event win barely breaks even with the cost of running that event. They are also infamously nebulous on their judging calls, which is often perceived as favoritism towards certain drivers (*cough* Chris Forsberg *cough*). It could very well be favoritism, but if it isn't, they need to make clear why they came to the ruling decision they did so that they don't piss of fans and drivers (Forrest Wang, incredibly talented driver, quit for this very reason)

And the evolution of the pro drift car also hurt the sport. One car in particular is really responsible for this: Daigo Saito's Bridges Racing/Achilles Radial Toyota Soarer

 

In the 2012 season, when this car arrived, the average FD Pro car still had a radiator in the front, anywhere from 600-800hp, plenty of OEM sheetmetal and full trunk floors and sheetmetal structure ahead of the shock towers, 55 degrees of steering angle, OEM differentials and transmission, and could go for multiple matchups on tires. Then Daigo Saito arrived with this nuclear bomb of a car, with a 1200hp 2JZ, G-Force 4-speed dog box and quick-change rear end, rear mount radiator, tube structures in the front and rear, tons of angle. And it changed the sport almost overnight.

He laid waste to the competition because the car was such overkill. With so much more power and grip and less weight than the competition, in the lead run he could just power away from the competition and run and hide. In the chase position, he outpowered everyone so he could just mat it and run up on their door. And the car, between the power and aero chewed through tires and had to have new ones every two runs or they would come apart.

Come the '13 season and now, to compete, everyone had to have 4-digit power, and 75 degrees of steering angle, and completely gutted with fiberglass or carbon bodywork. And now, with tire consumption through the roof, you had to have a major tire sponsor or you would bankrupt yourself to compete. And suddenly all the privateers got squeezed out of existence, because they couldn't afford to build a car to the new standard and they couldn't afford to buy tires at the rate they would burn through them. 

 

The solution is that FD should put a limit on tire usage, make it so that they can only use so many tires per event. That would force guys to back down on the power and aero. Maybe require the usage of more OEM components. But the problem is then the cars would be slower and have less angle and make less smoke and be generally less interesting to the average viewer. 

Absolutely! Man, you nailed it on the head here. I would like to see them Do classes. Make an unlimited class, and then make a class with no engine swaps across brand, 300hp limited, and factory suspension pickup points. Oh, and no tube frames, AT ALL! I would love to watch that!

Trackmouse said:

NickD said:

I will concede that at a pro level, Formula Drift participation is at an all-time low, with them failing to make a full 32 car field the entire '17 season. BUT, viewership/attendance is at a high. And while the number of drivers is down, the quality of drivers is through the roof, with guys like James Deane and Piotr Wiecek making the trip from Europe to see how they stack up against the Americans. I remember going to FD NJ in 2012 and having 54 cars qualifying for a 32 car field. This year there was 28. But in 2012, of those 54, only about 20 of them could complete the course without major errors and only 5 or 6 of them were really in contention for an event win or a championship. Of the 28 this year, almost all of them could have won an event and the Top 10 was in constant flux.

I would say that a big part of FD's participation issue is less the sport of drifting's fault, as well, and more the fault of FD as a sanctioning body. FD is notorious for not paying large purses to drivers, with many saying that an event win barely breaks even with the cost of running that event. They are also infamously nebulous on their judging calls, which is often perceived as favoritism towards certain drivers (*cough* Chris Forsberg *cough*). It could very well be favoritism, but if it isn't, they need to make clear why they came to the ruling decision they did so that they don't piss of fans and drivers (Forrest Wang, incredibly talented driver, quit for this very reason)

And the evolution of the pro drift car also hurt the sport. One car in particular is really responsible for this: Daigo Saito's Bridges Racing/Achilles Radial Toyota Soarer

 

In the 2012 season, when this car arrived, the average FD Pro car still had a radiator in the front, anywhere from 600-800hp, plenty of OEM sheetmetal and full trunk floors and sheetmetal structure ahead of the shock towers, 55 degrees of steering angle, OEM differentials and transmission, and could go for multiple matchups on tires. Then Daigo Saito arrived with this nuclear bomb of a car, with a 1200hp 2JZ, G-Force 4-speed dog box and quick-change rear end, rear mount radiator, tube structures in the front and rear, tons of angle. And it changed the sport almost overnight.

He laid waste to the competition because the car was such overkill. With so much more power and grip and less weight than the competition, in the lead run he could just power away from the competition and run and hide. In the chase position, he outpowered everyone so he could just mat it and run up on their door. And the car, between the power and aero chewed through tires and had to have new ones every two runs or they would come apart.

Come the '13 season and now, to compete, everyone had to have 4-digit power, and 75 degrees of steering angle, and completely gutted with fiberglass or carbon bodywork. And now, with tire consumption through the roof, you had to have a major tire sponsor or you would bankrupt yourself to compete. And suddenly all the privateers got squeezed out of existence, because they couldn't afford to build a car to the new standard and they couldn't afford to buy tires at the rate they would burn through them. 

 

The solution is that FD should put a limit on tire usage, make it so that they can only use so many tires per event. That would force guys to back down on the power and aero. Maybe require the usage of more OEM components. But the problem is then the cars would be slower and have less angle and make less smoke and be generally less interesting to the average viewer. 

Absolutely! Man, you nailed it on the head here. I would like to see them break up the classes. Make an unlimited class, and then make a class with no engine swaps across brand, 300hp limited, and factory suspension pickup points. Oh, and no tube frames, AT ALL! I would love to watch that!

and this is how SCCA style classing begins.  Eventually, unless checked, the classing will get to SCCA levels of insanity.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

dont misunderstand my motivation. I have built the most fun to drive car ever IMO and I only get at most 1.5 hours of seat time each year. I want a competitive autocross car that is also street legal so I can go to car shows and track days in it and sort out bugs before Nationals. If it just happens to be decent at drifting and I can appeal to that crowd enough to pay for more parts from YouTube money or sponsorship,  it’s a bonus. I’ve always loved 510’s and wished I had gone down that path with this build

GameboyRMH said:

loosecannon said:

In reply to Ransom :

I'll give you some insider info. I am going to take the Pink Panther as far as I can, hopefully 1st or 2nd in EMod then I want to sell it and start a Datsun 510 build that will be even better documented than the MGB. I want to build it to SM or XP rules, keep it street legal and build with a nod to drifting with things like a hydro brake, big wing and flashy graphics. As far as my YouTube followers will know, it's going to be a drift car and I will drift it but I also want to go to SCCA Solo Nationals with it because I love that event. Just imagine a widebody 510 with a built SR20DET.

Seems like way too much effort just to run up a score on the YouTube interface. Accept that popular and good are usually not the same thing, and just do what you like.

You'll never beat the Kardashians.

This is so tempting to respond to......but I wont.......you never know where ECM is lurking

LooseC.....How much? $50K?

I always thought vaping was a berkeley-boy thing not drifting lol

In reply to Stefan :

I think the answer lies in scca rally cross. 9 classes, that's it. 

Hack, for drift they could get away with 6, no need for a front wheel drive class that I'm aware. (Although I would never say no to a lunch tray under the rear wheels class)

Stock, prepared, modified, rear and all wheel. Stock is obvious, prepared is still car like but with lighter materials or better motors/tires maybe even so street legal, and modified is essentially open, needs to be towed in. 

Boom done. Room for everyone from first timers to champions, without the requisite 6 months of sorting through bizarre and seemingly ever changing class options like auto x has. 

759NRNG said:

GameboyRMH said:

Seems like way too much effort just to run up a score on the YouTube interface. Accept that popular and good are usually not the same thing, and just do what you like.

You'll never beat the Kardashians.

This is so tempting to respond to......but I wont.......you never know where ECM is lurking

Feel free to PM me