Why nothing got done on the MG today.

Ordered new shoes, four new wheel cylinders, new hardware, new springs - basically everything that lives inside the drums. The car uses the same shoes front and rear, BTW. 12x2.5". I could have picked up just rebuild kits for the wheel cylinders  but there's no guarantee an old cylinder can be rebuilt. Almost none of it was in stock at our local NAPA but half of it came in this morning and the rest will be here on Saturday.

Total cost: $180 including a liter of DOT4. Most of that was the wheel cylinders, but at those prices I'm not going to screw around with brakes. That's basically the same cost as a set of front pads for the Targa Miata. We want to drive this thing to Christmas dinner (weather permitting) so there's my timeframe for the brake and shock job.

Was the dual stage master cylinder factory on these cars, or did someone do a retrofit sometime in the car's life?

I did a lot of retrofits to pre-68 cars, this is the first time I've seen a dual stage on a pre-68 car that looks factory.

All three of my '66s have had dual circuit brake systems like that, so I'll assume it's factory. Standard of the world, remember!

Haynes says that Cadillac got it in 1962.

I have nothing of value to add other than I really love this thread.  It's been blah couple of weeks, but this old Cadillac, and your adventures with it, have brought me some cheer!

This post to congratulate you on the awesome ride, and make sure this thread turns up in the "my comments" summary... 

It's actually much cooler than the only non-CTS-V Cadillac that tempts me, which is the Bauhaus She's In Parties video spec Sedan De Ville. Which I assume I would loathe actually driving. Not that that stopped me checking CL after finding this thread.

Ugh. Drums. Maybe I should have done a junkyard front disc conversion from a '70. This is my reference "before" picture so I can make sure I put it back together properly.

I only got through the fronts. Did one side, did the second much faster, then pulled the first side apart again because I doubted myself.

I screwed up a little bit on the parts order.  They only charged me for one set of shoes, so there's another $25 in parts :) I also only got two sets of retainer hardware, and they're sold by the wheel. That's not a big problem, I haven't come across a retainer that couldn't be reused. Everything looked pretty good inside the fronts. 

I should have considered this, but the rubber brake lines should probably be swapped out. Interestingly, Autozone has the fronts in stock here in town. $13 each. Man, I'm just spending money like it's going out of style.

Lots of meat left on the shoes but I don't feel bad about replacing these.

Also did the front shocks. Ridiculously quick and easy. They're cute little things, and the old ones were definitely past their sell-by date. They're also Monroes but they match the car better than the new ones :)

Tomorrow, I buy some brake lines and then tackle the rears.

If I made my living doing drum brake jobs, I would starve. I think I've got something like 9 hours into this so far. I am doing it by figuring out how things work, looking at what I'm taking apart and have a factory manual on hand. No YouTube here!

After spending most of the day watching my 6 year old nephew take part in a wrestling tournament (4 hours of sitting to watch about 90 seconds of action, it's the autocrossing of gym sports), I got one of the rear corners done. Phew.

And then I realized that the shoes were not the same. The primary shoe has less material. Have I mentioned that I don't do drums often? This meant I had to pull the drums off the two front wheels to check those, and as the odds would predict I had one of them wrong. It only took me 15 minutes to reassemble, so at least I'm getting better.  

Sigh.

So, right now we have three of four wheels with correctly installed shoes. Both front shocks are done, but it's going to be the work of moments to do the rears. I have hopefully figured enough out that the remaining rear will go quickly and I can go for a cruise.

Obligatory pics.

I changed out the front lines. I think this was money well spent.

The rear shoes (at least on one side) were much more worn than the fronts. I feel good about replacing these. I mean, we've established I am not a drum brake expert but I'm pretty sure the rivets aren't supposed to be part of the friction surface.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I like doing drum brakes.  Properly done you radius the shoes to the new radius of the drum. Back  in the day we had a machine that the asbestos was ground off with the dust flying everywhere.  The operator would calmly smoke his lucky strike non filter cigarette squinting through the smoke to get the shoe just right.  
 

Have you seen that Speedway now has a reproduction Buick aluminum drum  designed to fit on Early Ford hubs?  Only $300 each drum!!  Believe it or not that's a good deal. 

So, did the Cadillac make it to Christmas dinner?

No.

Mostly because I have put the Cadillac on a "dry use only" use restriction, and the weather looked like it could be frightful. But it wasn't really ready because I was still figuring out drum brakes. Manual adjustment is not just a pain in the butt, it's also necessary.

I got the rear brakes together without too much hassle. The last drum was a bit messy like it had leaked in the past - but not recently enough to drain half the master cylinder. As I was trying to figure this out, I noticed a new puddle under the car.

Weird. I decided it had to be the master cylinder, it had lost some internal seal that was pumping pressure into the reservoir instead of the system. I pulled the master off the green car since I'd replaced it back in 2002. That seemed to solve the problem, so I ordered a new master to install. Prices have gone up in the last 17 years, but it's still half the price of an NA Miata part. I decided to buy new instead of rebuilding because it's cheap insurance, and the part from the green car had also been sitting so I didn’t completely trust it.

My theory is that my bleeding put the master cylinder into a range of motion it hadn't seen in years and this damaged an internal seal that was already struggling. Naturally, I took the old one apart because it's fun. The seals looked good but the bore had some ugly looking debris inside.

So, the car now has new shoes, new front lines, new wheel cylinders, a lot of new retention hardware, new adjusters on the rear, a new master and fresh fluid. It's been a long slog to get to this point as I learn and test and learn some more. Also the front wheel bearings have been adjusted, all four shocks changed and I changed the radiator cap because it was opening at 0.01 psi. I’ve spent less than $400 on parts which is pretty affordable for the sheer amount of stuff I’ve refreshed.

And of course, I painted the air cleaner. What was that about gateway drugs?

In other work, I also decided to fix the front left turn indicator. It's not reassuring to have oncoming traffic unaware of your intention to cut across traffic. I'd already swapped out the bulb, but it still wasn't working. Time for more investigation.

It turns out that the light uses the body of the housing as a ground, which is bolted to an aluminum "grille" and etc etc. Basically, there was enough oxidation on various things to prevent the bulb from lighting off, at least during the short duration of a turn flash. Lots of cleaning and sanding and thread chasing and we now have a functioning front turn. But no parking lights. Should it have a parking light? It’s a dual filament bulb, so it would seem so...

While we're doing lights, I'd noticed the cornering light on that side also wasn't working.

Cornering lights? Yes! These things have a light on the side that lights up when the headlights are on and the turn indicator is triggered. They're really nice, they do a good job of lighting up the inside of a turn for you. More cars should have them. Again, the fasteners for the housing are the ground so I made sure everything was nice and clean. Even put one of the brackets in the bead blaster so it would be nice and clean.

They run a weird 1195 bulb that's got a standard bayonet mount but runs 38W. You can use an 1156 bulb in their place but it's less than 30W. Also, we have become used to bulbs that are very easy to change. To get this puppy out, I had to remove both the fender liner and the lower headlight and surround so I could access it from both ends and then disassemble the housing. The front turn indicator bulb involves four nuts - and removing the battery on the right side.

With that done, I got distracted and decided to see if the paint would respond to a wax. I hit a bit of the hood with carnuba.

That's all been waxed. There's some sort of discoloration on the paint, and it's definitely more satin than gloss. Perhaps someone with a buffer could bring it up, but I'd have to bring in someone who's better than I am for that, as I do not have a good history with buffers. The car's a good 10 footer for now.

The keys were a little naked. I had a little fun on eBay. 

The Roadside Service one is too new for this Cadillac, as 800 numbers didn't appear until 1967. Still, the logo is the correct era. On the backside, it has a serial number and a promise of free postage to a PO box in Lansing, MI. I'm not sure I want anyone to drop these keys into a mailbox. The 800 number was the roadside assistance number for Cadillac until just recently, now a Caddy dealership in California owns it. I suspect they would not come to help me.

The small one is obviously more ornate and makes no promises as to what will happen to lost keys. I amputated the quick-release keychain that was far too eager to release, and so I'll try it for a while. The bigger one is a better size, though. Oh, such decisions.

With the big car finally done with the brake job, I've moved it back into the parking space so I can get back to work on the MG. Remember the MG? It wants its engine back...

A couple more thoughts:

iirc if I want to replace the taillight bulbs I need to remove the rear bumper, and that thing weighs as much as a Kia. I think there’s at least one dead bulb in there. Looking forward to that...

The coolant temperature sitting at 1/4 is normal. The owner’s manual says so. It also says it might climb into the middle of the range while driving in hot weather, and if it gets to the top I should pull over. Engine cooling was very different in 1966. 

The fuel gauge has only just moved off F and I’ve got nearly 100 miles on the odometer. I am starting to doubt the accuracy of this particular gauge.

If the lettering is raised on the back of the big one you could probably polish it off :)

After a few days of snow that quarantined the Cadillac in the shop, I decided to take it for a bit of a drive in the cold sunshine. After looking at it up close for a while and seeing flaw after flaw, it's good to get that 10 foot view. Time for some gratuitous photos. 

I need to take this one again, the sun dropped down behind the cliffs on me. The house is 17 years newer than the Cadillac, but I think they work well together.

To double-check the fuel gauge, I stopped by the gas station. It's optimistic - the beast took just over 9 gallons with 3/4 indicated on the tank. Unlike them furrin cars, this thing has a tank that's pretty much a box so it should be pretty predictable. I'm going to try running it down to various levels and get a feel for how it behaves. And, uhh, it looks like we're running right about 10 mpg.

Also, I've found that the car will pee out a bunch of coolant when it gets warm. Not hot, just normal operating temp. I replaced the radiator cap but it continues to happen. It seems to stop once there's a bit of air in the radiator. The car has no overflow tank, of course, so it's quite obvious when it happens. I might add an overflow tank so it can suck coolant back in when it cools, but this seems odd.

If there's no overflow, you're supposed to leave a couple inches of airspace in the radiator.

When automakers started pushing the limits of cooling systems, the first thing they did was run an overflow tank so they could run the cooling system completely full.  (Actually the FIRST thing they did was shroud the fan,  but I digress)

It shouldn't be spitting out overflow in cool weather - has the radiator been cleaned?  I once bought a 1965 Pontiac Grand Prix with very low miles (it was an actual little old lady car, she drove it to church on Sundays) that was overheating when it shouldn't have been.  I had the radiator rodded out, and all was well after that no matter how hot it was outside.

Knurled. said:

If there's no overflow, you're supposed to leave a couple inches of airspace in the radiator.

 

When automakers started pushing the limits of cooling systems, the first thing they did was run an overflow tank so they could run the cooling system completely full.  (Actually the FIRST thing they did was shroud the fan,  but I digress)

I checked the owner's manual and it confirms this. There's supposed to be a sticker on the radiator showing the correct full level, but I think it's long gone. Looks like the car is finding this level on its own by ejecting fluid until it gets to a happy place. Fan is shrouded :)

Explains why my Mini is so hard to keep full as well. I learned something new today!

10 feet view is nice. Sometimes having the flaws, makes it fun. 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

was there at least a fire at Christmas dinner?

Knurled. said:

I did a lot of retrofits to pre-68 cars, this is the first time I've seen a dual stage on a pre-68 car that looks factory.

For the Mustang, '67 was the first year to have a dual master setup from the factory 

Mr_Asa said:

Knurled. said:

I did a lot of retrofits to pre-68 cars, this is the first time I've seen a dual stage on a pre-68 car that looks factory.

For the Mustang, '67 was the first year to have a dual master setup from the factory 

FMVSS 105 required dual-circuit braking systems effective Jan 1, 1968.  There was nothing restricting manufacturers from launching dual-circuit brakes earlier.

AngryCorvair said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

was there at least a fire at Christmas dinner?

Took me a while to parse this - we did not burn Christmas dinner. But did I fire up the Caddy? Alas, no. We were not the hosts, so I couldn't bring everyone into the shop and make a big V8 noise.

However, we did take the car to run errands last week. It made friends with Janel by blowing hot air on her, which is a trick the previous Cadillac never performed. I think someone also managed to scratch the door with a belt buckle or something, it's got a little scribble on the passenger door that wasn't there before. Sigh. At least it's not pristine paint. Lots of smiles and waves, though.

We think this is a big car. Well, sorta.

In reply to AngryCorvair :

That's what got us side-visible turn signals as well, right?

Keith Tanner said:

So, did the Cadillac make it to Christmas dinner?

No.

Mostly because I have put the Cadillac on a "dry use only" use restriction, and the weather looked like it could be frightful.

and then angrycorvair wrote:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

was there at least a fire at Christmas dinner?

i know there were a couple weeks between our posts, but i was trying to be subtle.  i hoped you'd say "yes, and it was delightful."

In reply to Mr_Asa :

Close!  Lighting was courtesy of FMVSS 108, which was also effective 1-1-1968 for passenger cars.   From NHTSA's website:

Standard No. 108 - Lamps, Reflective Devices, and Associated Equipment - Passenger Cars, Multipurpose Passenger Vehicles, Trucks, Buses, Trailers, (except pole trailers and trailer converter dollies), and Motorcycles (Effective 1-1-68 for vehicles 2,032 mrn (80 or more inches) in width and Effective 1-1-69 for all other vehicles)
This standard specifies requirements for original and replacement lamps, reflective devices, and associated equipment. Its purpose is to reduce traffic crashes and deaths and injuries resulting from traffic crashes, by providing adequate illumination of the roadway, and by enhancing the conspicuity of motor vehicles on the public roads so that their presence is perceived and their signals understood, both in daylight and in darkness or other conditions of reduced visibility

Generally speaking, the FMVSS 100-series speak to crash avoidance, the 200-series speak to crashworthiness, and the 300-series are post-crash standards

Got it :) At least someone picked up on my frightful weather joke, even if I apparently forgot about it.

I forgot to mention - I dropped the big guy off at the alignment shop over the Christmas break to get checked out and the steering wheel straightened. The sidewall bulge means my toe plates don't work and I wanted a pro to cast an eye over the front suspension. They reported that one front wheel bearing felt like it needed some lubrication (I had them off about 15 times during the drum brake debacle) so I'll pull them off again and give them a cleaning and re-greasing. The car came back with a straight wheel and no charge. The benefit of bringing in interesting cars on a regular basis, I guess.