So, GRM project car comparison showdown idea:
Caddy Catera vs Lincoln LS
So, GRM project car comparison showdown idea:
Caddy Catera vs Lincoln LS
NickD said:QuasiMofo (John Brown) said:GM had an excellent opportunity during the bailout to completely revamp their company.
But they fumbled that job.
"Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory" should be GM's slogan.
Quoted for truth.
Also see '88 Fiero.
Indy - Guy said:NickD said:QuasiMofo (John Brown) said:GM had an excellent opportunity during the bailout to completely revamp their company.
But they fumbled that job.
"Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory" should be GM's slogan.
Quoted for truth.
Also see '88 Fiero.
Saturn
Wasn't it a German Opel sedan? How could they screw that up?
More horsepower and a manual transmission with the Cadillac emblem should have put them in BMW/Audi territory.
BlueInGreen - Jon said:So, GRM project car comparison showdown idea:
Caddy Catera vs Lincoln LS
Should the showdown involve the ease of swapping in an LS, or maybe a Coyote for the Lincoln?
ShawnG said:Remember the Allante?
The new Allanté?
No, not really
The first time I saw a GTO it was driving through a parking lot a couple rows over & I was really confused why a Catera was making that engine rumble.
Being that it shared guts with the Commodore, shouldn't an LS swap be relatively straightforward?
NickD said:People did like the later Cateras, quite well, especially with the supercharged LSA. What am I talking about? Well, the Catera was replaced with the CTS, and the name CTS stood for Catera Touring Sedan.
Could just as easily stand for Cimmaron Touring Sedan. 
In fact, that's how I'm reading it from now on.
Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) said:The first time I saw a GTO it was driving through a parking lot a couple rows over & I was really confused why a Catera was making that engine rumble.
I really liked the bland styling of the GTO, it was a contrast to all the weird ribs and cladding Pontiac was known for during that period, bonus points for the 2004 model without the hood scoops that the later ones got.
QuasiMofo (John Brown) said:GM had an excellent opportunity during the bailout to completely revamp their company.
If they had stopped the brand and model dilution and focused on what was working they could have:
Create Passenger Vehicle, Truck and Service Vehicle, Luxury Vehicle and Performance Vehicle divisions.
Passenger Vehicles are Chevrolet, Buick. Chevrolet is a no frills high economy FWD and AWD model in sedan and long roof hatch (wagon) Gas, diesel and hybrid electric available. Buick is a high content larger sedan and tall long roof hatch (similar in size and execution to the original Cadillac SRX but more Buick) Gas, Diesel, Hybrid and Plug In Electric versions of them available.
T/SV makes GMC trucks like the Sierra, Canyon, WT, truck based SUV and G type van and Chevrolet based mini van with FWD and AWD variants. Gas, Diesel, Hybrid drivetrains.
Luxury Vehicles are the Cadillac sedan, luxury variations of the Truck based SUV and the Buick SUV with Gas, Diesel, Hybrid and PIE.
Performance gets Corvette, a small coupe and a larger high volume pony sized car. Gas, Hybrid and PIE makes economies of scale work.
All models available at every dealer.
But they fumbled that job.
I always thought they should have just made GM Dealers and been done. Have GM Silverado, GM Express Van, GM Corvette, GM Escalade, etc. Stop the same car/different badge stupidity. 1 truck, not a Silverado AND a Sierra, etc.
Appleseed said:Being that it shared guts with the Commodore, shouldn't an LS swap be relatively straightforward?
Apparently it's harder than I would have expected.
Steve_Jones said:QuasiMofo (John Brown) said:GM had an excellent opportunity during the bailout to completely revamp their company.
If they had stopped the brand and model dilution and focused on what was working they could have:
Create Passenger Vehicle, Truck and Service Vehicle, Luxury Vehicle and Performance Vehicle divisions.
Passenger Vehicles are Chevrolet, Buick. Chevrolet is a no frills high economy FWD and AWD model in sedan and long roof hatch (wagon) Gas, diesel and hybrid electric available. Buick is a high content larger sedan and tall long roof hatch (similar in size and execution to the original Cadillac SRX but more Buick) Gas, Diesel, Hybrid and Plug In Electric versions of them available.
T/SV makes GMC trucks like the Sierra, Canyon, WT, truck based SUV and G type van and Chevrolet based mini van with FWD and AWD variants. Gas, Diesel, Hybrid drivetrains.
Luxury Vehicles are the Cadillac sedan, luxury variations of the Truck based SUV and the Buick SUV with Gas, Diesel, Hybrid and PIE.
Performance gets Corvette, a small coupe and a larger high volume pony sized car. Gas, Hybrid and PIE makes economies of scale work.
All models available at every dealer.
But they fumbled that job.
I always thought they should have just made GM Desoers and been done. Have GM Silverado, GM Express Van, GM Corvette, GM Escalade, etc. Stop the same car/different badge stupidity. 1 truck, not a Silverado AND a Sierra, etc.
From what I recall, as strange as this sounds, I think there was data out there suggesting that GMC and Chevy truck buyers were actually different and they wouldn't buy either or.
In reply to aw614 :
That's very true, GMC truck buyers are crazy loyal to GMC, not Chevy. That being said, if it's your only option, you'll buy it.
There's really only one answer: the engine.
In 1997, General Motors released an advanced V8 that made huge strides in power and durability, and made all-aluminum versions of it available in Camaros and Corvettes.
In 1996, General Motors introduced a car with great fanfare that was supposed to bring BMW and Mercedes customers back into the Cadillac fold.
In 1997, 1998, 1999, etc, General Motors did NOT switch that car to the new advanced V8 despite GM Australia having already done the development work to install the old V8 in that car.
In 2003, Car and Driver tested a V8 Holden Commodore. They said it was every bit as good as the BMW E39 M5. That had the old engine!
By 1999, Catera engines were failing in service at a terrible rate. GM thought so little of Cadillac's reputation that they didn't immediately start a crash program to switch production to the LS.
In 2004, the Pontiac GTO was introduced, essentially a Catera coupe with a 5.7 liter LS. So GM thought the Cadillac Catera was so bad that after major improvements it was only fit to sell as a Pontiac!
How much would Cadillac have gained by having the 1998 Catera be powered by a 5.7 liter LS1? Why wasn't the 1996 Catera powered by a 5.7 liter LT1? It was clearly good enough for a Fleetwood, why wasn't it good enough for the bottom of the line?
Incredibly, they had made the exact same mistake with the Cimarron in 1982. If the 2.8 liter V6 had been standard it wouldn't have been a punchline, and only a few years later it was optional on even a Chevrolet Cavalier.
It's a testiment to how insular GM was that there wasn't a single senior executive at Cadillac who was at all serious about driver satisfaction for at least twenty years.
In reply to chaparral :
Longer than that even.
You're forgetting the unreliable tech they dumped on buyers before all that.
The GM Diesel was available, the V8-6-4 engine and the HT4100.
aw614 said:Steve_Jones said:QuasiMofo (John Brown) said:GM had an excellent opportunity during the bailout to completely revamp their company.
If they had stopped the brand and model dilution and focused on what was working they could have:
Create Passenger Vehicle, Truck and Service Vehicle, Luxury Vehicle and Performance Vehicle divisions.
Passenger Vehicles are Chevrolet, Buick. Chevrolet is a no frills high economy FWD and AWD model in sedan and long roof hatch (wagon) Gas, diesel and hybrid electric available. Buick is a high content larger sedan and tall long roof hatch (similar in size and execution to the original Cadillac SRX but more Buick) Gas, Diesel, Hybrid and Plug In Electric versions of them available.
T/SV makes GMC trucks like the Sierra, Canyon, WT, truck based SUV and G type van and Chevrolet based mini van with FWD and AWD variants. Gas, Diesel, Hybrid drivetrains.
Luxury Vehicles are the Cadillac sedan, luxury variations of the Truck based SUV and the Buick SUV with Gas, Diesel, Hybrid and PIE.
Performance gets Corvette, a small coupe and a larger high volume pony sized car. Gas, Hybrid and PIE makes economies of scale work.
All models available at every dealer.
But they fumbled that job.
I always thought they should have just made GM Desoers and been done. Have GM Silverado, GM Express Van, GM Corvette, GM Escalade, etc. Stop the same car/different badge stupidity. 1 truck, not a Silverado AND a Sierra, etc.
From what I recall, as strange as this sounds, I think there was data out there suggesting that GMC and Chevy truck buyers were actually different and they wouldn't buy either or.
GMCs are some weird blend of Real Work Truck™ like in the olden days when they had GMC specific, truck duty specific engines (the gigantic V6s engineered with truck specific details, the two stroke Diesels, etc) but also they are the luxury option compared to a Chevy.
I have known people who drove GMCs who wouldn't be caught dead owning a Chevy truck.
In reply to chaparral :
GM did not introduce an advanced V8 in 1997. They introduced the LS1, which was two valves per cylinder, had pushrods and cam in block, had no variable cam timing to speak of, it made power through displacement instead of turbocharging, etc.
It worked for its application but it was decidedly not an advanced engine.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
He probably meant more advanced than first gen small block.
In reply to Appleseed :
From a mechanical perspective, the LS was a V8 version of the Series II 3800. Same upgraded sealing, same upgraded oil pump, similar intake manifold architecture, non siamesed ports, both made roughly the same power per liter...
I wonder how good one would have been in a Catera. It's certainly a lot more rev happy than an LS.
QuasiMofo (John Brown) said:GM had an excellent opportunity during the bailout to completely revamp their company.
If they had stopped the brand and model dilution and focused on what was working they could have:
Create Passenger Vehicle, Truck and Service Vehicle, Luxury Vehicle and Performance Vehicle divisions.
Passenger Vehicles are Chevrolet, Buick. Chevrolet is a no frills high economy FWD and AWD model in sedan and long roof hatch (wagon) Gas, diesel and hybrid electric available. Buick is a high content larger sedan and tall long roof hatch (similar in size and execution to the original Cadillac SRX but more Buick) Gas, Diesel, Hybrid and Plug In Electric versions of them available.
T/SV makes GMC trucks like the Sierra, Canyon, WT, truck based SUV and G type van and Chevrolet based mini van with FWD and AWD variants. Gas, Diesel, Hybrid drivetrains.
Luxury Vehicles are the Cadillac sedan, luxury variations of the Truck based SUV and the Buick SUV with Gas, Diesel, Hybrid and PIE.
Performance gets Corvette, a small coupe and a larger high volume pony sized car. Gas, Hybrid and PIE makes economies of scale work.
All models available at every dealer.
But they fumbled that job.
I Definitely agree with this. GM had so much overlap for so many years that they self cannabalized. Sometimes I like to daydream "what if I was in charge". I think I'd do something like:
Chevy--passenger cars. Sedans, hatches, wagon. Nothing fancy but could get different trim model up to say "mid" and maybe a sporty handling package.
GMC--trucks. Kind of like what dodge side with Ram.
Cadillac--luxury sedans. Big engines. RWD. Leather. Active suspension-The ultimate highway cruiser. This would be the Lexus to Chevrolet's Toyota but with significantly fewer options. Maybe make only the CTS and the DTS To compete with the Lexus GS/LS. Also, get rid if the north star and just use LSx architecture.
Corvette: now is a brand, not a car. This is your muscle/sports car segment. You could get the Stingray, a renamed Camaro, renamed G8/Chevy SS. In my version "Corvette" also has a skunkworks-like division that gets to try new concepts and experiment.
I can't be the only one who has looked...
... wondering if there is a cheap back door to a "roll your own" Chevy SS/GTO?
I think most people saw the Catera for what it was, an overweight and under-powered car marketed as "sporty", which doesn't make it so.
So, could a Catera be the new Biturbo to bring to the Challenge?
I have a friend that was the PR guy for the NA Touring Car Series. He had a Catera to drive when they were using them as the pace car or something(switched from Audi the year before). He was telling me about the rim design they went with was to cover the ugly calipers even though it had pretty good sized rotors.
GM took the chassis from Europe and added about 400lbs of "Cadillac" to it.
I've only ever driven one of these, and it was a last model year Catera Sport. I remember the interior being marginally better than GM fare at the time, but not what I would call luxury. I was working on european cars at the time, and any comparable BMW or Mercedes was massively better in terms of material quality and touch points. It didn't drive badly, but it didn't strike me as a sports sedan, or a luxury sedan. I remember thinking that it was what the Malibu at the time should have been - which is exactly how I think it was generally sold in Europe.
The one I drove looked just like this:
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