Woes of Paypal - Auto parts

I am sincerely frustrated and had no outlet but to vent to you weirdos. I sold some very good looking track wheels (Fikse FM10's) on a well know Pcar forum. Some slimeball decided two months after the purchase to claim one had a cracked spoke (no evidence provided) wanting $700 some dollars in cash. I immediately offered a refund of payment for return of product but cash was the only remedy. Not wanting to be scammed for $700 dollars, I decided not to part ways with HALF of the amount paid for the wheels but twice more (the last time even offering to cover all out of pocket expenses) offered a refund in full for return of my wheels. Of course, the buyer filed a chargeback with their credit card company claiming product was substantially not as sold and paypal immediately clawed the $1500 dollars back and was my intermediary with the credit card company. 

Since the claim wasn't through paypal, they could not arbitrate directly and of course the buyer's financial institution sided with the buyer even thought I provided detail on the ad and the high resolution photos of each wheel (front and back) provided to the buyer. I am not getting any response from the buyer and feel completely defrauded of both my wheels and $1500. Let this be a warning NEVER to sell anything valuable via paypal unless it is friends and family and never to buy anything through paypal unless its through a credit card. It was an out of state purchase, and I do not have any information for the buyer's financial institution so it looks like I will have no way to file an appeal directly. 

Let this be a very expensive lesson learned and any idea of ways to get this furthered would be happily accepted. Also, if there were any ways to provide this to a credit beurau or some/any form of (legal) retaliation in order to justify my loss would be great!

do you have a full name and street address for buyer?  does your employer provide free legal counsel?  i'd send that berkeleyer a letter mentioning something about small claims court in his home state.  but this might be totally misguided, as i'm not a lawyer and i have not recently stayed at a Holiday Inn Express.

I had a similar experience with a buyer using Paypal. Claimed item was damaged when received. Refund without return of item. No longer use Paypal.

Thought about that recourse. I have literally NEVER hired a lawyer so feel awkward to walk into a random legal office and telling them about a wheel sale. Anyone here in law school?!

You would think to receive all his monies, he would have to return the wheels.  

spitfirebill said:

You would think to receive all his monies, he would have to return the wheels.  

Exactly. Which is why I am so distraught that fraud has no means of recourse. 

In reply to Olemiss540 :

Oh yes it does, just not officially.

You have his address and the internet. Time to get weird. 

Pull out a few disposable email addresses and get to work. Furry orgy Friday, combination Klan rally and black panther meeting Saturday, free needle exchange Sunday. The glitterbomb website is gone, but you can still send boxes of elephant E36 M3 anonymously.

Won't get your money back, but should prevent idiocy against anyone from this shiny happy person in the future.

I'd post the story (with supporting evidence) up on said forum, and any other forums you can find with said individual.  If they have a buyer/seller feedback section, as many do, that would be appropriate. But if not, in there should be another area you could reasonably do so. Public shaming in their corner of the internet isn't probably all that likely to get your money or your wheels back, but it at least might help prevent somebody else from making the same mistake with them.

As far as actual legal recourse, I have no idea. If small claims court ends up being your only option, and I don't know that I would send the threatening letter if you aren't willing to travel there and follow through with it.

Given that this is theft of $1500, it's probably a felony. If you *mailed* the items to him, and he's stiffing you on the money, it's a FEDERAL CHARGE for mail fraid.

Read that again: Felony. Federal mail fraud.

I'd pursue this with a lawyer. The only reason this happened is because that guy thinks nobody's going to do anything about it. 

Paypal is horrible about this.  Its been like this for damn near as long as they've been around.

A friend of mine has been mad about their policies on returns/disputes for literally a decade.

If he's nearby I'm willing to knock on the door and say that I was sent to pick up the damaged wheels.

Stampie (FS) said:

If he's nearby I'm willing to knock on the door and say that I was sent to pick up the damaged wheels.

Ooh I like this! What city are the wheels in? 
 

PayPal's return policy is why I'm very hesitant to sell things on eBay these days. The buyer can ALWAYS get a refund, no matter what you do or say. 

Normally I am against internet thuggery, but back in the day of mailing people money orders for parts the recourse to this was to show up at the persons address and get your items back.  

From those way back in the day, anyone remember Manny Alves from the DSM and Supra forums.  Good-Guy-Bro showed up at his house, pulled the ill-gotten transmission from his car, and took it back or something along those lines.  

Stampie (FS) said:

If he's nearby I'm willing to knock on the door and say that I was sent to pick up the damaged wheels.

i like stampie with his current number of bullet holes. not sure i'll like new and improved stampie with added ventilation.

That sucks.  I've generally had very good luck selling parts on specific enthusiast boards, rennlist being one of them.

However I've been on the flip side of that and gotten parts that weren't what were represented, one set of 996 brake calipers that were actually 997 calipers and a set of euro gt3 seats that were replicas, not the real thing.

In both cases I was happy I'd used Paypal and was able to get my money back.

Brett_Murphy (Forum Patrón) said:

Given that this is theft of $1500, it's probably a felony. If you *mailed* the items to him, and he's stiffing you on the money, it's a FEDERAL CHARGE for mail fraid.

Read that again: Felony. Federal mail fraud.

I'd pursue this with a lawyer. The only reason this happened is because that guy thinks nobody's going to do anything about it. 

This. Back when I used to sell car parts 15 years ago, I got a guy arrested for mail fraud and recovered some of my money.

Brett_Murphy (Forum Patrón) said:

Given that this is theft of $1500, it's probably a felony. If you *mailed* the items to him, and he's stiffing you on the money, it's a FEDERAL CHARGE for mail fraid.

Read that again: Felony. Federal mail fraud.

I'd pursue this with a lawyer. The only reason this happened is because that guy thinks nobody's going to do anything about it. 

This sounds like a pretty good path to me. But do you have proof (pictures) that the wheels you sold were in undamaged condition?.Also, was the shippment insured?

Also, I may have missed it but this was not an eBay transaction since you said:

I sold some very good looking track wheels (Fikse FM10's) on a well know Pcar forum

Sue the guy in small claims court.  Ask for your money, court cost and any attorney fees you accrue.

Wow, this is amazing and cant believe this has gotten so much support. To answer some questions:

Buyer lives in Fair Haven, NJ and is the COO of "MotoVenture" that supposedly "restores and modifies vintage automobiles to meet the needs of our customers". He had the wheels shipped to what appears to be his brother's business (brother must have paid for the UPS label that way) which is a copier repair service in Kenilworth, NJ. 

Any NJ peeps ever heard of this "MotoVenture" outfit? Person (buyer) looks like he is 20 and fresh off a job at a car wash.  

You're making me scared about the big item I just sold via ebay/paypal

docwyte said:

That sucks.  I've generally had very good luck selling parts on specific enthusiast boards, rennlist being one of them.

However I've been on the flip side of that and gotten parts that weren't what were represented, one set of 996 brake calipers that were actually 997 calipers and a set of euro gt3 seats that were replicas, not the real thing.

In both cases I was happy I'd used Paypal and was able to get my money back.

I agree with you there are two sides to every story. The sad part of this is I am on the buying side of a couple of items from Rennlist as well. Its very strange that I have been in the BMW world for decade plus and nevery had ONE issue buying and selling parts (mainly through bimmerforums), but in 6 months being active on Rennlist have had 50% E36 M3 experience. To the point I have changed all of my mean/methods of used parts methods and have soured on the overall Rennlist community for the most part excepting small subsections and long term posters. 

Would you have been happy with a refund in exchange for the product return? Did you get your money back and then keep the calipers/seats? The items I sold were VERY specific and had detailed photos of the front and back of EACH WHEEL individually so their condition was as thoroughly explained as I could make it. If they were in worse shap than I expected, I would expect some hartburn but it could have been in shipping or could have been in the 2 months since I sent over the wheels. Didnt think anything besides a full refund was a smart idea given the buyer could have been conning me for more cash as it ended up he was that type of person in the end. 

Ad in question here: https://rennlist.com/forums/market/1187567/page2

Pictures of the wheels in question here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/6qsh6g0o8cmn1hw/AAANXo_iW_jIdw3lXYjWP65ha?dl=0

Tell me if I am being an idiot and I will drop everything.

93gsxturbo said:

Normally I am against internet thuggery, but back in the day of mailing people money orders for parts the recourse to this was to show up at the persons address and get your items back.  

From those way back in the day, anyone remember Manny Alves from the DSM and Supra forums.  Good-Guy-Bro showed up at his house, pulled the ill-gotten transmission from his car, and took it back or something along those lines.  

We're gonna need more on this story. I want every detail, since Good Guy Bro sounds like my kinda guy. 
 

side idea- give the address to all forum memebers. People can feel free to BOMBARD his mailing address with hand written letters of why he should stop defrauding people and give back the wheels. He can possibly get a restraining order against all of us. 

I was a credit card administrator for about 10 years.  In most cases when we had fraudulent use of a card we found a recent purchase through Paypal.  I would not recommend using Paypal for any purchases/.

Olemiss540 said:

Buyer lives in Fair Haven, NJ and is the COO of "MotoVenture" that supposedly "restores and modifies vintage automobiles to meet the needs of our customers". He had the wheels shipped to what appears to be his brother's business (brother must have paid for the UPS label that way) which is a copier repair service in Kenilworth, NJ. 

This was your WTF?? moment. Why would a guy in the car business have car parts shipped to what smells like a drop box location? And having the guy do a label takes you out of the loop.

Was the shippment insured?