Engine Rebuild Questions

After too many months I finally have all the parts to get my 2000 buell blast back together. I had a machinist regrind the valves/seats, and rebore the cylinder +.010, and surface the head. Now I am finally ready to put the punky buellster back together and am having a bit of trouble understanding the manual.

-Are there any special tools needed to install the piston rings onto the piston? The oil rings seem very thin and flexible and I don't want to bend them.

-The manual talks about measuring the rings in the bore and I'm a bit confused as to what needs to be done. I think you are measuring the gap between the piston rings and the cylinder wall.

-The stock base gasket is a very thin piece of paper with a small rubber ring, would you trust it? The original one failed after 30 thousands miles so I think I'm going to use the aftermarket thick gaskets I got.

-Any special oil to use during the 200-300miles break in period? I am leaning toward using walmart 20w-50 and a good filter as that is the cheapest stuff available and I won't be using it long. I think a couple of 300 mile oil changes then I will switch to better oil once I know the bike is in good shape.

Any tips or suggestions are appreciated and I might post a few more questions.

benzbaron wrote: After too many months I finally have all the parts to get my 2000 buell blast back together. I had a machinist regrind the valves/seats, and rebore the cylinder +.010, and surface the head. Now I am finally ready to put the punky buellster back together and am having a bit of trouble understanding the manual. -Are there any special tools needed to install the piston rings onto the piston? The oil rings seem very thin and flexible and I don't want to bend them. -The manual talks about measuring the rings in the bore and I'm a bit confused as to what needs to be done. I think you are measuring the gap between the piston rings and the cylinder wall. -The stock base gasket is a very thin piece of paper with a small rubber ring, would you trust it? The original one failed after 30 thousands miles so I think I'm going to use the aftermarket thick gaskets I got. -Any special oil to use during the 200-300miles break in period? I am leaning toward using walmart 20w-50 and a good filter as that is the cheapest stuff available and I won't be using it long. I think a couple of 300 mile oil changes then I will switch to better oil once I know the bike is in good shape. Any tips or suggestions are appreciated and I might post a few more questions.

I'll preface by saying I'm not a Buell guy, however, here's the advice I can offer.

1- tools for rings. Follow the manufacturers instructions. I usually, you can "spiral" on the oil rings going down the piston one groove at a time. For the compression rings, I use a ring spreader, which is a small tool that opens the ring up enough to run down the piston to the groove.

2 - Ring Gap - The ring gap is gap between the ring ends when installed in the cylinder. You can measure the gap by putting the ring in the cylinder, using the piston to square it in the bore then measure the gap witha feeler gauge. You want that to be in spec. Too much gap, you'll hvae some blow by. Too little gap, the ends could butt together with heat which will cause some scoring on the cylinder walls, broken ring, etc. Bad stuff.

3- Base gasket - I'm not a Buell guy, but my thought there would be the thicker the gasket, the higher the cylinder sits, the lower the piston compression height ends up being. Someone else may have a better answer, but my answer would be that it depends on how thick the gasket is, how much (if any) was shaved from the head and if you want an increase or decrease in compression.

4- Oil - You'll probably get 20 different answers and likely, all of them will be right. On a fresh motor, I typically put the thinnest, cheapest stuff I can find for initial start up and drain it out after just a few minutes of run time. After that, I run whatever weight I intend on running in non synthetic in the motor for break in and change it after break in to a synthetic. From there, I call it good to go.

Pat's right on the money. I'll add:

When checking the ring gaps, if they are too large it generally won't cause a problem unless it's WAY too big. Rule of thumb is .004 for each inch of bore diameter, i.e. 3" bore = .012 ring gap. On that same bore, if the ring gap is, say, .020 it might not be perfect but it's not going to hurt anything on a non-race motor. Now if it's .060, I'd be concerned. That would tell me it's very possible the bore is too big (improper machining) and I'd look REAL carefully at the piston skirt to bore clearance.

That's a critical clearance, by the way. Too tight = seizure, particularly in air cooled engines, too loose = at least piston slap when the engine is cold and in extreme cases breaking the skirt of the piston! Check it by either measuring the bore diameter and the piston diameter, subtract piston diameter from bore diameter and there's your measurement, or use a selection of feeler gauges as a 'go/no go' type of thing. For instance, if the skirt clearance is spec'ed at .008, then you should be able to insert the piston in the bore with a .008 feeler gauge between the piston and bore but if you try it with a .010 you should not be able to fit the piston into the cylinder. If the .010 fits it's time to go talk to the machine shop.

If the ring gap is too tight, yes that is something that needs to be corrected. Going by our same example above, if the spec is .012 and the real gap is .006, as the rings heat up and expand the ends will butt together. As the ring continues to try to expand, it forces them way too tight against the cylinder wall. Result: seizure. If the gap is too tight, use a small file or a knife sharpening stone to trim the end of the ring.

If the oil control ring is the three piece design with an expander (very likely: one piece oil rings are nearly extinct), the rails (the thin ones) usually have a pretty large gap compared to the compression rings (the thick ones). When installing the expander (the wiggly spring lookin' ring), be VERY sure the ends of the expander butt up to each other and do not over lap. If they overlap, the engine will burn oil like nobody's business and can even seize since the rails don't fit properly in the ring groove.

One other thought about that thick base gasket: how much thicker is it? Reason I ask, if the head was resurfaced, say, .010 that's going to raise the compression. If the thick gasket is .010 thicker than stock it puts the compression back pretty close to stock. I'd also look into some Loctite red gasket sealer, I believe it's their no. 518. That stuff works wonders on thin paper gaskets and adds no thickness.

Thanks for the tips and suggestions, looks like I might end up needing to buy a ring expander and ring compressor to finish the job. I'll have to go through the manual a few times and confirm what you folks are saying. I'm pretty sure I am measuring the gap between the ends of the rings while installed on the piston in the cylinder bore, looks like I get to play around with my feeler gauges again.

Thanks for clarifying the instructions, I'll keep y'all posted as to what happen. Should have it back by next week sometime if the stars align.

Nope close but not quite. Ring gap is measure off the piston but you do use the piston to push the ring down the bore so its square in the bore.

Motorcycle rarely need a ring compressor the bottom of the Cly should have a huge chamfer on it it's job is to compress as you slide the cyl over the piston and rings.

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Always used 30W non-detergent oil for start up and cam run in @ spec rpm if new. AA, AZ, WM brands are ok for that. Change to quality mfg. recommended non-syn. after that, change at 25/ 200/ 500 miles... oil is cheap. OK to switch to synthetic after 1K.

Def run a magnetic drain plug. Cut oil filter open and check between the pleats at 200, lotsa bits in there. Again at 1K, should be very little bits.

OK measured the ring gap and all are within specs. The gaps are fine so now I think I"m going to install the rings onto the piston and start getting this pig back together.

The aftermarket base gasket is like the top gasket the shiny type with graphite or something in it, while the stock one is just like paper with a tiny rubber ring which goes around it, I should post a picture. I am leaning towards using the thick one as these base gaskets are failure prone and the old one did fail and spew oil down the front of the crank case. Also if the gasket does crap out you have to take everything all the way apart to replace it.

Thanks for the tips and suggestions, I do appreciate it!

My friend, who builds a TON of Harleys and vintage flat track BSA's and Triumph's, just uses a lightly tightened hose clamp to compress the rings to get them into the cylinder. He also uses a set of dowels, rotates the piston to BDC against the dowels, and then installs the cylinders unto the pistons.

One small tip: Do this in as clean an area as possible, and as cleanly as possible. Clean rags, too!!

I've always installed rings with my fingers, never broken one. The two wood dowels under the piston works great, too. When I put my XS650 back together, I stuck the pistons in the bores, then slid the piston pins in from the outside (I of course put the inside pin circlip in first) then lowered that over the studs. I was then able to align the rods with the piston pins and tap them into place, then used a clean rag under the piston just in case and installed the outside pin circlip. That saved all the aggravation of trying to fiddle with TWO sets of rings at the same time. Worked great!

By the way, you are best off putting the base gasket on the bottom of the cylinder during cylinder installation. If it's on top of the cases it's very easy to damage. Ask how I know. Gluing them on is not a good idea, particularly the shiny graphite type you mention. So I will put the hollow alignment dowels into the base of the cylinder, slide the base gasket over the dowels, then use a couple of old O rings over the dowels to hold the gasket in place. Once everything is aligned and the cylinder is ready to push all the way down, I use a pair of needle nose to pop the O rings so they'll come off.

Great suggestions!

I got the piston installed in the cylinder and am getting ready to install the piston/cylinder onto the con rod and onto the crank case. I did install one of the circlips onto the piston so I can just slip the pin in and install the other clip. The clips are a pain to install, one got away and flew across the room somewhere, lucky I got an extra set. I was able to use my hands to install the rings, kind of a pain but it worked.

The base gasket is actually metal silicone type and sounds better than stock so I will use it even if I do loose a bit of pop.

If everything goes right I will have the punky back together tomorrow and hopefully running to once again ruin the neighborghood. I just want to take it easy and not screw anything up, I'd hate to have to redo it again.

As for being clean it seems easier said than done, but I'm doing my best. The damn wind keeps blowing dirt everywhere. I even moved everything to a clean table with cloth on it so hopefully I'll cut down on contamination. I might runs some oil through the system first to chase any funky chunky bits out. The stock drain is weird so I don't think a magnetic plug will work as the bike uses a dry sump oil system and the drain plug is remote in the drain tube.

Thanks again and wish me luck!

One more question, when installing the piston/cylinder onto the con rod then into the cases do you just push down on the cylinder to seat it to the base gasket/case or do you need to turn the motor over on the drop stroke to pull the cylinder piston down? I think you just lube everything up then push down to seat the gasket, I don't think I need to turn the motor until I install the head/pushrods, but I don't know for sure.

Thanks for the help!

If it is like an evo sportster, then the filter is after the pump and before the motor, so it SHOULD trap the crud before the bearings. Of course, you don't want to push your luck. A shop vac helps a lot in these circumstances. I use Genuine Toyota filters from the Toyota dealer for a 22R motor, which are the same spec as HD filters and <$5. Also black.

The aftermarket base gasket should be OK. Sounds like the multi-part "cometic" type. They are popular.

You just push the cylinder down on the base and don't rotate the motor. If it moves, no big deal, you just don't have to turn it. Once the head is on and the head bolts are torqued down to spec, whatever that is on that motor (some inch pounds plus 1/4 turn?) then you can rotate the motor wherever you want and install the push rods. If you're using the original solids push rods, you have to put them in when the rocker stuff goes on, if it's like a sportster/evo, which I think it is. I like to put the push rods in with the rockers in place and bolt that section down as one unit, instead of putting it in first, putting the push rods in and fighting the rocker shaft.

OK, I got the piston, cylinder, tappets, and pushrod cover installed and I think tomorrow I'm going to button this mess up. It is raining here so I don't think I'd want to ride on a fresh motor with new tires on the wet pavement, if I do it right I'll have plenty of time to crash after getting the bike broken in.

Note that the manual gives conflicting installation instructions for the cylinder head, in one part it says to install the head first than install the tappets and pushrod cover, well I hate to say but that is impossible to put the pushrod cover on with the head installed, ask me how I know. Luckily the head gasket still looks good so hopefully it will hold pressure after my abuse.

The upgraded base gaskets are different enough that I decided to use the paper gasket with spray copper seal stuff on it. The circlip is a pain to install but I got it in after about 15min of fighting.

Thanks for the tip about a 22re gasket for harleys, I know my bike uses the same gasket as a corolla but I'll have to see if a toyota filter will work. The toyota 22re uses the same filter as a 2005 ford focus so it would be nice if every car and bike used the same filter.

Not gasket, oil filter. A 22R/22RE oil filter is the same as a Harley filter as used on Evo's, Evo Sportsters and maybe late-late shovelhead FLT's. The same filter also works on my Esprit Turbo. Corollas (A block Corollas, anyway) take a different filter, same as S blocks (5SFE, etc.) It's smaller in diameter and length.

Uh, too late now, but it is better to use the "upgraded" base gasket and not the simple paper gasket. The problem is that the cylinders "walk" a little bit, and that destroys the paper gaskets. The upgraded ones can handle it. Whatever. Now you know how to do it, so next time it will be a lot easier. It may be another 10 or 20K miles before you will need to do it again.

The reason you see those shiny graphite gaskets is that the graphite lubricates the gasket so as the two parts move against each other due to the expansion difference between the dissimilar metals (aluminum case and iron cylinder) it allows them to 'slide' across the gasket rather than catching it and rolling it up. Like Doc says, too late now.

I got a bit confused too much thought about gaskets verses oil filters and missed a bit of editing.

Yeah if the punky makes it another 20k I'll be stoked. What really kills the gaskets is not warming the bikes up enough before riding them. The bottom gasket was fine until I started burning oil at an alarming rate and wasn't diligent about warming the bike. I used to warm it until I could see smoke in the alley. The issue with the upgrade gasket I didn't like was having to cut some away to clearance the pushrod cover gasket. If I have to pull it apart again I'll be a bit disappointed but now surprised, I've followed the manual pretty decently. If all goes well the bike will go back on the road tomorrow.

Not to hijack, but when I assemble an engine I use white lithium grease/assy lube. Is that wrong? If it sits on a stand for a while I see the oil running off.

Thanks, Dan

914Driver wrote: Not to hijack, but when I assemble an engine I use white lithium grease/assy lube. Is that wrong? If it sits on a stand for a while I see the oil running off. Thanks, Dan

I use assembly lube. Thinner than grease, thicker than oil.

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Depends for me on how long i expect it to sit. I rather use oil for most of it but if i know its going to sit i'll use the white Lubra-plate assembly grease. on things like rods and bushings, but not on the piston light wipe of oil only if it sits i'll squirt in the plug hole and trn it over a bit.

I'm with Dave, real assembly lube. Over the years I've grown to like the 81950 Permatex red stuff. It's thick and sticky, so it doesn't drip off of bearings etc if youhave to wait a week or two due to ??

It is alive and ruining the neighborhood once again.

Might have a small leak in the carb boots but everything is running pretty well. Weird to get back on the punky again after 6 months. Started right up on the second crank so that was good.

One of the pushrod cover o-rings got hungup in the head but isn't leaking yet. I guess it got misaligned on install but hopefully it will hold, I don't really want to rtv it up unless I have to.

The throttle return cable unraveled so I am running without it now until I can fix it with bicycle brake line.

I used some thick assembly paste which must be pretty old, but I only used it on tappets and rockers because I don't want too much junk in the oil.

Thanks you guys for all the help and I'll keep y'all posted. More riding less talking!

Anyone else use vaseline or can reccomend not using it in thefuture? Have 60k on a set of dohc heads from a v6 that seams fine and the "stick" of the vaseline sure helped with valve keepers.

bluej wrote: Anyone else use vaseline or can reccomend not using it in thefuture? Have 60k on a set of dohc heads from a v6 that seams fine and the "stick" of the vaseline sure helped with valve keepers.

I have used grease to help with the keepers in the past, but a good valve spring tool solved that issue.