Slow bike fast head vs heart ZX4rr / ZX6R / R7

Rambling a bit here. 

On break right now and have a bunch of time. Went to look at bikes as the Ducati is still down and been test riding a bunch of stuff. Lots of Italian exotica, finally got to ride a MV SuperVeloce, got to ride a V4S Streetfighter and a RSV4. Long term I will get the 959 back and nothing here quite scratches much of an itch or is objectively better then the 959 Panigale. The SuperVeloce is gorgeous and it makes me turn my head back every time I get off one but it is not objectively a better bike then the 959 and it sounds anemic without a decat or a full arrow setup. ~30K all in for a bike that is a little fragile and hard to service is hard to swallow. 

I sold my WR250X which frankly was my favorite bike I have owned dollar for dollar. I have borrowed a friend RC390 and been having a absolute hoot on it here and there. But it had to go back home. I can get one as cheap as 4500$ locally with low miles  but they are a reliability nightmare, the 2022 is better and I can get one around 6.5K OTD. Been wishing I had it this week to just go up into the hills and play around, get some lunch and basically just bum around like a kit. 

Heart

So in my travels one of my dealer friends has a ZX4RR that was reserved for a client who could not afford the loan (How?) and I can get the bike at MSRP + 350$ in setup. I have been saying for a while that the second that a small bore properly spec'd bike came out in the states I would buy it and this clicks all of the boxes. I never buy new but for something like this I just keep coming back to the bike because I said I would if it came out. I cannot test ride though and I would need to derestrict the bike for around 250$ right out of the gate. With minimal down its like a 100$ a month payment and that is literally nothing to me but it does take a space in the garage that could be filled with something else. 

Head. 

Dealer has a 2022 R7 with 1000 miles for 8500 in blue used that would do everything the ZX4RR will do, its a it better for daily riding, I fit a little better its cheaper, its faster stock / stock and having ridden it its fits me and it makes sense. Tons of modifications out there as well you can do.  They also have a ZX6R 2023 around 12K. 

Anybody go down in size and really enjoy the experience. I have in the car world and really enjoyed it. 

I'm lucky enough to have several bikes in the garage, usually for commuting and whatnot I take either the KTM 990 or a very modified Honda CX500 that is probably in the same power range as what you're talking about, maybe 35 horsepower. Unless I'm jumping on the highway, I almost always take the CX. 9500 rpm in 4th is right around 82 mph, you get to use all the gears and all the revs without getting too crazy and the V twin sounds great opened up, and with the frame and suspension mods it turns and stops great too. I don't know a lot about the mini sport bikes, but I've always wanted a Honda VTR250 Interceptor - character of the engine matters a lot to me. I've had some fun on the little Ninjas but the parallel twin/360 degree crank sound just doesn't tickle my soul the same way as a V or a 270 degree parallel twin.

I love the 990 and will always have one, but little bikes are hard to beat for just ripping around.

ooooh I did a quick google and the ZX4RR is a 4 cylinder. Do it. That sounds like an absolute riot to me, assuming you can get it to fit you comfortably.

I must have missed it.  What's wrong with the 959?

I vote Kawi w/ECU derestrict.  15k+rpm will be a riot.  Graves was seeing 77 at the wheels with a slip on and tuning IIRC.  It's not the 400 of my dreams ( like an RVF400F from back in the day) but still seems super cool.  I'm looking forward to seeing them at the track.

To answer you other question, I've done exactly that.  I restarted my MC riding on a Ducati 848 (140hp/420lb).  I followed it up with a Husqvarna 701 Vitpilen (75/375) , then an Aprilia RS250 (65?/335), and finally a Bimota db4 (75ish/390).  The Ducati is 95% track bike now.  I threw Ohlins front/rear and a different tripletree at it, and called it good.  I've ridden it once on the street this year, ignoring cruises around the neighborhood before track days. Realistically, I'd probably do better with a slower track bike but it's what I have and I'm having fun.  It's amazing, particularly with the Ohlins upgrades, but it's just total overkill on the street and it's a slow bike by modern standards.

The smaller bikes are just so much more usable on the street.  The little 250cc 2-stroke Aprilia is hysterical.  Wail through 4 gears, tucked behind the bubble like your Max Biaggi, and you haven't cracked 100mph.  My Ducati goes 75 in first gear.  

I should acknowledge that I don't make motorcycle purchases with my head.  They serve no practical purpose to me - they're just for fun.  "Interesting to look at with a beer in my hand" ranks high on my rating system along with "sounds cool".  The parallel twins, even the 270 degree ones, just sound off to me.

I don't understand why you would take a loan on it - the cost of interest isn't going to move the needle one way or another but you're still paying $$$ for an additional headache.

I'm in love with the 2012 WR250R I just picked up. My previous bike was a 2007 Triumph Tiger 1050. It was a comfy ride and I still love that 3 cylinder, but 115hp and a lot of torque meant I could crack it open for a gear.. maybe gear and a half and then it was time to settle back down to normal speeds. 

I'm excited to be able to go off-road again and not worry about all the other motorists. When I feel like just ripping around on road this is light and powerful enough for plenty of entertainment.

mfennell said:

I must have missed it.  What's wrong with the 959?

 

I don't understand why you would take a loan on it - the cost of interest isn't going to move the needle one way or another but you're still paying $$$ for an additional headache.

959 was in for Desmo service and they broke a tap off inside of the head trying to fix something where they made a mistake. Supposed to be a 1 day service turned into a 30 day issue and its still not fixed. Plus it happened right before my two weeks off where I wanted to ride which is a bit E36 M3ty. 

Was not going to carry a loan but I got a discounted rate at 4% for 36 months and they get a kickback if I hold it for 6 months so that is what I normally do and then just pay outright. 

Looked at the ZX4RR today and I really like it, some weird stuff like the tail is welded in place and its a bit heavier then I thought on the spec sheet but it is really light under the legs. My sales guy is pulling the numbers together on the ZX right now an putting it all on paper so they actually stick to their word and may pull the trigger today. 

The only thing I don't like is the green paint. But easy enough to have it wrapped in the future. 

In reply to wearymicrobe :

As good as the Yamaha engine sounds, I'm willing to bet the ZX4RR is more fun to ride.

wearymicrobe said:

Was not going to carry a loan but I got a discounted rate at 4% for 36 months and they get a kickback if I hold it for 6 months so that is what I normally do and then just pay outright. 

That makes more sense and I've done it with a car purchase.  Make a huge first payment and you don't pay much interest.

It's unfortunate that it's built to a price (steel frame, welded subframe, etc) but noone is going to buy an $11k 400.  Someone in a YouTube comment made a particularly astute observation - the displacement of a bike is just a measure of how much empty space is in the cylinders - everything else is largely the same.  There's almost no cost differential between the 400 and 636 engines so they have to make it up with features.  Additionally, the 4 is an upsized version of the ZX25-RR, which is absolutely built to a price for Asian markets.

Still, one of the most interesting new bikes (to me) in a while.  Randomly, I love the MotoGuzzi V100 Mandello too.

Bummer about the 959.  

That's why I am on the fence it's not really over the top special. 16k and absolute top shelf stuff like the old sp rc30 I could justify that but they are never doing that again in my life I think  

The exotic bike dealer I am friends with has a Moto2 Daytona 765 that he just took in around 12k in price with 2k miles that he thinks I would love a lot more then the zx4rr. I got plenty of bike but I am bored and wanted something really crazy on the revs. 

Quite a while ago, I went from a 2000 VFR800 down to a 1993 Bandit 400. Being inseam challenged, the Bandit was a better fit for me. It was also more fun to ride because it was just easier to toss around and I could use more of the throttle without being as worried about tickets. As a result I rode it more, was more comfortable and just had more fun on it.

Much like small cars I love small bikes.

I love my Beta 520 enduro but I know I will eventually go back to a 200 or 125 two stroke.

The tiny kawi 4cyl makes me think of a 1.6 NA Miata. Wrap out 3 gears heading for a corner, nail the heel toe, get it a bit out of shape through the corner and "rocket" out of the corner and you never broke the speed limit. You feel like a hero and the cops don't bug you. 

wearymicrobe said:

The exotic bike dealer I am friends with has a Moto2 Daytona 765 that he just took in around 12k in price with 2k miles that he thinks I would love a lot more then the zx4rr. I got plenty of bike but I am bored and wanted something really crazy on the revs. 

Wow, the market does not like that bike much at all.  MSRP was $17,500.  Full Ohlins (TTX rear!) is pretty appealing.  

I still think the Kawi is more interesting in the sense that there's just nothing else like it right now.  It would be a lot of fun.

OTOH, it's not interesting enough for me to write a check either, so there's that.  I recently bid on a not-quite-running Bimota V-Due (500cc two-stroke science project) so my decision making skills are suspect.

A Daytona 765 would be quite a weapon. Love that 3 cylinder.

mfennell said:

wearymicrobe said:

The exotic bike dealer I am friends with has a Moto2 Daytona 765 that he just took in around 12k in price with 2k miles that he thinks I would love a lot more then the zx4rr. I got plenty of bike but I am bored and wanted something really crazy on the revs. 

Wow, the market does not like that bike much at all.  MSRP was $17,500.  Full Ohlins (TTX rear!) is pretty appealing.  

I still think the Kawi is more interesting in the sense that there's just nothing else like it right now.  It would be a lot of fun.

OTOH, it's not interesting enough for me to write a check either, so there's that.  I recently bid on a not-quite-running Bimota V-Due (500cc two-stroke science project) so my decision making skills are suspect.

I am surprised just how many of them are out there and at really decent pricing. They are a very good package of parts for not a lot of cash right now. There are some eccentricities with the ABS not being able to be defeated and a lot of people do not like the look of the older bodywork but I really like the bike as a idea, I think its best to just think of them as the ultimate Daytona and not a Moto2 replica which is what people expect. 

Got some time to decide, sitting in Cabo right now on a beach for a few days as I had to burn some vacation. Surf is pretty garbage where we are but going to go out on some UTV racing course hopefully tomorrow or Wednesday. 

Had them inspect the moto2 for me and give me a honest appraisal for what it needs to be perfect. They are pulling the purchase up for the zx4rr as well. I think they said 11,210$ otd on the zx4rr tax and tags included if I take it this weekend and do the finance deal. 

Not much to add except that the ZX4RR has been sorely tempting me, and I certainly miss my old Bandit GSF400 from time to time! Going to have to get my JDM GSXR250 project running someday soon...tons of revs and momentum riding is really fun.

I currently own a Bandit, and like several of you, I swore if they ever brought small-bore bikes like it back to the US, I was going to buy one new.  Watching the Fortnine review made me want to do so even more.  I also saw one up close and personal at CTMP last weekend.  Looks great.

If you like the RC390, and you like parallel twin noises (even 180* motors?) and want cheap and cheerful, then maybe a ninja 400 would fit the bill? It's a bit faster than a RC390, though it's not as cool...

Small bikes can be super fun. I figure ~50 WHP is the least you can get away with, and still be able to do 70 some MPH uphill into a headwind... 

Because slowing down when you're trying to keep up with the flow of traffic, and you're pinned isn't fun.

And getting on a fun twisty road, and sitting there at full throttle on the uphill, and never having to let off or lean the bike very far to get around the corners is also not fun.

Buying a new bike is stupid and I refuse to deal with another dealership locally. Something like 2500$ in fees when it should have been around 800$, then tax and tags on top of that on a 9500$ bike. Every single dealer on every single bike seems to be thinking they are sitting on a gold mine. Hell dealing with Harley on my Icon was so easy I just got lured into thinking it would be easy. That was a seriously limited bike as well. 

Just going to bo back to looking at used RC390's hopefully with a suspension upgrades and a exhaust already done. I looked at a 2022 leftover RC390 new at 5100 and it was almost 8100 after all the fees and taxes as well. 

4.5K buys me a good used one with the mods I want and almost no miles. 

Damn, $2500 is insane. From when I ordered my BMW:

"Our dealer fee is only $350, tag and title is $180, sales tax is 7%. "

Got my quote from a second dealer. 3120$ in fees before taxes and tags. That's a hard no. 
 

iconic has a nc30 that is in decent shape that would be very cool but is a bit of a project. I also looked at a Cbr600rr that was teack/street prepped today that with a tiny bit of trickery will make about 75hp and still rev like crazy with a bit of restriction and would have substantially better suspension then the zx4rr. Also dirt cheap to buy and insure. 

My feelers found this and I am on the way out to look at it. R7 with just about every ohlins suspension part you can throw at the bike along with yoshimira rear linkages and has the street bodywork still. Been down once very lightly but I can trade the race bodywork for street and have one hell of a modified bike that makes about 70hp to the wheel and has absolutely top shelf suspension and its not Italian so easy to work on and repair.  

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/290467376732604/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3Aeb9f4438-4b4e-4c0f-aaf6-cbfd03546f66

wearymicrobe said:

Got my quote from a second dealer. 3120$ in fees before taxes and tags. That's a hard no. 
 

iconic has a nc30 that is in decent shape that would be very cool but is a bit of a project. I also looked at a Cbr600rr that was teack/street prepped today that with a tiny bit of trickery will make about 75hp and still rev like crazy with a bit of restriction and would have substantially better suspension then the zx4rr. Also dirt cheap to buy and insure. 

I've stared at that NC30 Iconic is selling more than once.

Similar experience with dealers out here (NJ) too.  Maybe not quite as bad but a $5400 Husky is  $7800 OTD. 

My theory, besides them just being greedy jerks, is that there are a bunch of big dealerships built when bikes sales were 30-40% higher.  They have a zillion mouths to feed and margins are not that great on bikes so they grind every dollar out of every transaction.  

My local Husky dealer is ONE GUY plus a part time mechanic.  None of those shenanigans because he doesn't have time.  He wants you to buy a bike and go home.  My co-worker is buying a new (first) bike from him and is perfectly happy.  MSRP+direct shipping cost+DMV+taxes and he's even delivering it all registered and ready to go.

Jeeze, that sucks about the fees. I was looking forward to reading about your ZX4RR ownership too. 77 hp and all the RPMs seems so rad. 

Kinda funny that my modded 400 (DRZ) makes 40 hp if I'm lucky.