ST/RT/R/Adventure/upright buyer's guide?

Also, for any that's newer than mid/late nineties, you'll want a GS911 tool or equivalent to service them properly if you do how servicing.

Docwemple said:

Best overall adventure bike,  R1150gs.  Sweet spot of build quality,  reliability, balance, reasonable to work on, ride quality, not too heavy and way more agile than it should be

I've owned both and while I certainly woudn't sneeze at a bumblebee 1150GS, I think the hexhead 1200GS is the slightly better bike - a bit less weight, and they fixed some of the issues that affected 1150s.

But I'd still take either

Jeez this is a learning curve.  I'm one of those guys who has to research the crap out of things, and the dizzying array of just BMW offerings is daunting, let alone the other manufacturers on the radar.

I wish there were a chart with all the BMWs (with pictures) down the left, and a list of options across the top like ABS, water/air cooled, forks or that fork/arm thing, power, etc.

Of course, power is fun, and more is better, but I'm also happy with "enough."

The high, 8-gallon fuel tank is a consideration on handling, but even when I was a crotch-rocket rider, I never cared as much about dragging a knee and scrubbing tread all the way to the sidewalls.  I appreciate good handling on a bike, but it's not my biggest consideration.  As long as it's not something that will make me fight to stay alive in every turn, I find that most bikes handle fine for me once I get the muscle memory of that particular bike.  The bottoms of my Nomad's footboards are all scraped up, mostly because I have become so used to riding it that I know its limits.

I've never had an ABS bike, so I'm looking forward to that.

In reply to BoxheadTim :

When new, the 1200 is better, but the build quality and parts quality isn't there. Not sure if it's because BMW went after light weight, or what, but they aren't ars rugged or reliable and certainly not as good if you go way off grid (where you're forced to diy).

You don't really notice the 8 gallons of fuel when riding as the GSAs are generally well balanced. You will suddenly notice them when you have to push the bike around and/or get it on/off the main stand.

Any "R" bike since the R1100 from the nineties will have the Telelever front end. It takes a bit of getting used to due to the lack of fork dive under braking, but IMHO people make a bigger deal out of this than it actually is. Handling is not a problem with these, at least not for normal use this side of a race track. They do add a different point of failure though, you need to check the coilover for the front suspension for leaks. Easy to check on a GS/A or a R, a bit more contortions needed on an RT but they're still relatively easy to check.

Re the ABS, IME very few of these bikes were sold without ABS especially when it comes to R1200s, so if you encounter one you need to check that it's actually a bike that came from the factory without ABS and not one that has had the ABS removed because the unit failed. They're not always removed by "the experts" if you get my drift. The ABS units are generally reliable unless someone decided they know better than BMW when it comes to brake fluid change intervals and stretched them out too far. The units are pretty expensive even rebuilt (something like $2k+ comes to mind, especially for the servo brake ones), and I wouldn't chance on a "good used" one. Top tip, especially on older bikes like the R1100/R1150s - the ABS units are pretty sensitive to battery voltage, so if the bike has stood for a while and wasn't on a battery tender, ABS fault lights might be a battery fault light. But it's an expensive call if you get it wrong.

The R1200 went to oil/water cooling in 2013, and for me the sweet spot are the bikes from August 2010 build date (according to the internet, that was when they finally got rid of the <expletive deleted> fuel strip, before the switchover to water cooling.

A few other random thoughts:

• Front tires on the Telelever bikes last about as long as the rear, sometimes shorter. They also tend to cup and have slightly strange wear in the center of the tire. That's usually a case of "they all do that", although it can also be a sign that one may want to think about replacing the front shock
• Buy on condition - the finish of the mid-ought BMW bikes isn't that great so expect some corrosion on painted metal surfaces, bolts etc. My GSA came out of PA and while it clearly had been looked after, I could tell. But it was mechanically in top shape.
• The R1200 rear drive has a bit of a reputation for self destruction if it wasn't shimmed right from the factory. It's a bit like a 996 IMS bearing in the sense that some exploded, and then the Internet came along. It can be a problem, but my understanding is that it's less of an issue than with the K1200LT where the problem was first noticed. The K1200LT is a much heavier bike and that seems to play a role.
• GS and GSA are probably amongst the most farkled bikes this side of H-D. I wouldn't pay extra for farkles unless they are really rare and 100% what I would buy anyway. And for me that's a pretty short list.
• As a good friend of mine said, one doesn't buy a BMW without luggage, because in most cases that's kinda the point of these bikes. I would go further and state that you want to buy them with all the cases you want. For example, I usually want a bike that also has a top case, and a surprising number of them don't have one. Doesn't matter if we're talking GS or RT here. Finding a factory top case isn't always that easy, and given that the bikes that came with cases from the dealer have the cases keyed to the bike, and that means you either have a separate set of keys for the case you just added if it came with any keys and locks at all, or you get to rekey the case.

Docwemple said:

In reply to BoxheadTim :

When new, the 1200 is better, but the build quality and parts quality isn't there. Not sure if it's because BMW went after light weight, or what, but they aren't ars rugged or reliable and certainly not as good if you go way off grid (where you're forced to diy).

That's an interesting point. I do believe that the overall build quality did decrease, but that started IMHO with the 1150s, and some of the finish issues that were very noticeable also show up in the 1100s. I've owned multiple 1150s (both GSA and RT) and a 1200, and while the 1200 definitely has even more technology attached to it, it's not like the 1150 is that much better. For example, I remember a trip to Switzerland with my 1150 GSA (still under warranty at the time) where I ended up at the dealer multiple times to get some issues addressed, to extent that the service writer asked me how much longer my vacation was going to be. On the flip side, I took my 1150 RT on the same trip multiple times without issues.

As to off-grid DIYability, I think they're both not that great unless you carry a computer around with your toolkit. Again, for that the 1200 might be slightly worse (more computers, first BMW motorcycle with a CAN bus), but for real off-grid stuff I'd rather go way back and take a properly built R100GS.

As mentioned I'd happily take either one, but I think at the age the 1150s are by now, age and parts availability would be a factor. Heck, my 1200 GSA got totalled partially because some of the damaged parts weren't available any longer.

BoxheadTim offers some really good advice on the BMWs.

I've been really happy with my early R1150GS, particularly on the bang for the buck metric. Keeps up just fine on and off pavement with the pricey 1200 and 1250s in the groups I ride with and has been relatively simple from a DIY perspective. I've worked on a few later models and they get a bit more complex with ABS and other systems that need software for diagnostics & repair. 

I would say these bikes are most appropriate to be thought of as touring bikes that can do occasional off pavement exploration (though I've probably spent about 40% of my time on gravel and dirt roads.) It can get pretty unwieldy for more technical stuff but the low end torque is nice for just chugging along. Regardless of any bike you purchase I'd set aside another grand for deferred maintenance and upgrades.

In reply to BoxheadTim :

Parts availability is remarkably good on almost all BMW motorcycles, no matter the year. It's right there with HD. Even if the dealers don't have them, you can get OE parts using manufacturer and part number, just like all German cars (with the exception of the crap support Adi seems to get). 

I'm on my second GS.  This one is the stripped down base model.  One before that was an Adventure that I added blingy Ohlins on both ends to.  Adventure = big tank and more weight.  Maybe a skid plate or two.  More wind protection because bigger tank.

I never had any real trouble with either of them.

If you're going purely street, as has been mentioned, a VFR is a great machine.  They're a tad heavy but nothing to be concerned with.  

I'd like to make an argument for a Yamaha Super Tenere 1200. It has exceedingly upright ergonomics (the tallest stock bars I've ever experienced) and the pillion space is downright commodious. It'll munch pavement miles like they're nothing, and if I have any complaint, it's that it'll work great off road till you start finding rocks, roots and the ground with the skid plate. Also it's worse to pick up than a GS, which only goes over about 45 degrees before the jugs hit. 
 

The early models (12-13) had timing chain tensioner issues but the later (14-current) tensioner is an easy swap. Also the '14 update has some other improvements, like heated grips and available electronic suspension. Mine has 70k with no evidence of a valve adjustment ever being done (despite all other records essentially from new). 

You said no gravel,not sure why no one has mentioned an FJR1300 and lots of talk of an GS series.

 Just sold mine in favor of a pair of Versys 650'sbecause of the rough roads now that I've moved to atlantic Canada.

 FJR's are upright,turbine smooth 150hp and reliable as a rock for hundreds of thousands of miles.

I will look into an FJR. I rode my cousin's GS a couple weeks ago.  I liked it, but I can definitely feel the weight up high.  Nothing I couldn't get used to, but not the dreamy ride I was kind of expecting.

I found the FJR way too heavy feeling for the size bike it is.

In reply to ddavidv :

I always thought it was pretty light on its feet for a big girl that can dance,nice to have the tank at waist height vs nipple height as well.

Look into the Moto Guzzi Stelvio as well.

I have one, love it, it had all the same features of the BMW 1150GS at almost half the cost.

You're weird enough to be a Guzzi owner.

Reviving this thread because I've been casually shopping for a GSA and telling myself that they prices will go down in the fall.  I started getting frustrated, so I began looking at K1200LTs.

They're cheap.  Like cheaper than the price I got selling my 99 Vulcan.

Given that most of my riding will be on pavement, shall we dwell a bit on K's?

In specific:  

This 2006 seems like a steal

This 2000 is just fkn cheap

This 1998 is a bit older, but very low miles.

And this 2002 already matches my autox helmet

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Sorry, didn't see this until now.

The K1200LT really is the unloved K-LT, unfortunately for some half-decent reasons. My BMW specialist in the UK loathed them because any minor work on them starts "have fun removing acres of bodywork". While BMWs generally have pretty long service intervals, you're still looking at doing that on an annual basis.

The other well known issue on these is that the rear drive setup on these is more fragile than on previous generations. Actually, it's probably not more fragile but Internet Rumor has it that BMW tried to optimize the production line be skipping checks if the drive was shimmed correctly, and they like to go kaboom if they aren't. However, it's a well known issue and people know how to fix it, so it's less of an issue compared to when they came out.

Compared to its predecessor - the K1100LT that I like a lot - these bikes are huge, but frankly, not so much compared a full size cruiser. They're also pretty much indexing on the "L" of the Luxury Touring part. IIRC you could get a fridge for the top box or something along those lines.

Like with any BMW, maintenance is key. I'd rather buy a higher mileage one with great service history than a low mileage one that only has had an oil change every decade if it needed it or not. They also got the servo ABS at some point in their lives, and like with most of the other newer BMWs, failure to change brake fluid much more often than people do will lead to expensive failures.

Out of the list you posted, the bikes I would look at first are the 06 and 98. The real cheap 2000 triggers my spidey sense and not in a good way, and the 2002 sounds like a good bike, but I think the other ones might be have a better bang/buck ratio.

K1200LTs are generally pretty plentiful since BMW built them for over a decade, and they're not really that sought after, so it's even more of a buyer's market than for most motorcycles.

Thanks again for the detailed response.  I was looking hard at the 2006 as well.  Pillion pad and armrests look like a nice thing, and it has the upped power from the previous models.  I think I'm going to reach out to some of them and take a couple rides to see how I like them.  My Vulcan (which sold today) was 800 lbs, but it was so low.  I'll have to take the K-LT to a parking lot and see how cantankerous it is in slow maneuvers.

It just seems like a whole lotta ride for not much cheddar.

Did you perk up for the 98 because of the upgraded brake lines?

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

Did you perk up for the 98 because of the upgraded brake lines?

It was more the aura of it looking reasonably well looked after. Depending on who you ask, the upgraded brakelines can be somewhere between "meh" and a detriment. Some people suggest that they're even a detriment with the at least the older ABS systems as they're "designed with rubber lines in mind". I'm not buying that part. But either way, I'd have a close look at the brakes.

With that bike (and frankly any Telelever-equipped BMW), I'd also a have a very close look at the front tire. Telelevers do weird things to the front tire, and this one looks like it may be either have dirt in the wrong places, or starting to show some of the Telelever-typical odd wear.

Oh, and whichever one you look at, make sure to take a look at not only the fork seals but also at the front coilover that's hidden up deep into the bodywork. These can leak like any shock absorber, but they're particularly fun to replace on the touring models.

Oh, and one other thing - the ABS light might not go out if the battery voltage is a tick low. I wouldn't gamble on that though because worst case it's the ABS unit itself, and that's multiple thousands to replace if you buy new, and refurb ones aren't that cheap either. Used ones may have their own faults, so I would always price a bike like that as if it needed major ABS repair and thank my lucky stars if it only needed a battery.

You're a wonderful human.

I spoke with the guy who is selling the 2006 and he was very forthcoming, including telling me that his price is negotiable and that no one else had shown any real interest in the couple months it's been listed.  He and his wife are moving and he had a collection of a dozen bikes that he decided to liquidate.

He even offered to take some time with me on another LT he had on the lift right now for some repairs to show me what's involved with getting to the maintenance items.  Nice guy.  

I also talked to my cousin (the one who now has 19 BMW bikes after some purchases this week) and he suggested that I consider this 2009 instead but he couldn't recall what it was about the 2009s that was better.  He was thinking that maybe they had solved the rear main leak issue, or the ABS servo troubles.  Any truth to that?

... and I think if I encounter a failed ABS unit, my cousin mentioned that the whole thing can be bypassed and then I just have plain hydraulic brakes.  That made me feel a bit better... if it's true.

I've probably put 300k miles on two wheels and never had ABS.  While it would be nice to retain it for that extra safety, I also don't look forward to a huge repair bill, even if I'm doing it myself.

I have to say I was skeptical about ABS on a bike but the system on my Stelvio is amazing and not intrusive at all.