4 teens die, who is really to blame?

rotard wrote: Sorry, but I agree that you need to take a look at what you're saying.

Indeed. I'm not saying you are "bad" or "horrible", but maybe what they need is a bit more space for them to do things themselves. When I was 16, I was driving to races across western Canada by myself at two in the morning (and thinking what terrible drivers there are on these roads)! Limiting drivers licenses also fosters the dependency on parents longer, which if you have read any societal commentary mag lately (Macleans or Times for instance) you would see that it is becoming a much greater trend for kids to stay with their parents longer after the age of 18. I don't know what I'd be doing now if I didn't have a drivers license at 16, I live in the middle of the prairies in a town of 65k people, not much to do in the grand scheme of awesomeness!

Such tragedies have been occurring since young men started to drive. It is just society thinks that we can solve every problem by some enactment of the Legislature. Having handled multiple youth car wrecks with deaths, the stupidity of the drivers and passengers is just amazing. I dont know if it is just a lack of personal responsibility or having played computer games with no regard for damages or injury, the youth have no perspective on reality. Education will help but dont expect the tragedies to stop.

Let everyone work their way down to a car. After my Grandfather took me out in his twin stick, manual steer Mack everything else was easy.

In reply to rotard:

I don't know what you mean by that, but regardless, my response is you do what you want with your kids, and I'll do what I think is right with mine, okay?

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: In reply to carguy123: Using myself as an example... I had an 11 sec Camaro I built with my fathers help when I was 17 and I drove it to school every day. I put myself thru college driving a newspaper delivery van hundreds of miles a night. I had more experience driving a vehicle on my 21st birthday than some people have in their whole lives. I did some stupid things. I did some smart things. I wish I had access to some car control clinics but... I made due in snowy parking lots. Experience does not come from age - it comes from doing.

Responsibity and maturity come with age. And you are one person, not a statistic. You are not a large enough sample size to represent the whole.

porksboy wrote: I too am in vavour of a tiered license system that includes restrictive power of vehicle.

the enormous unintentional consequence i see arising from a policy like that is that now the whole anti-fun appliance car lobby now has a hook into keeping people from ever getting 'evil' higher level licenses. similar to how hand gun permits are here in MA, basically up to the feelings of your local sheriff. there are towns that havent given out permits for years.

HiTempguy wrote:

rotard wrote: Sorry, but I agree that you need to take a look at what you're saying.

Indeed. I'm not saying you are "bad" or "horrible", but maybe what they need is a bit more space for them to do things themselves. When I was 16, I was driving to races across western Canada by myself at two in the morning (and thinking what terrible drivers there are on these roads)! Limiting drivers licenses also fosters the dependency on parents longer, which if you have read any societal commentary mag lately (Macleans or Times for instance) you would see that it is becoming a much greater trend for kids to stay with their parents longer after the age of 18. I don't know what I'd be doing now if I didn't have a drivers license at 16, I live in the middle of the prairies in a town of 65k people, not much to do in the grand scheme of awesomeness!

If you are talking to me, you are way off base. Did you read my posts? My kids have been driving for many years. They've had the training, and the freedom. They just aren't ready yet. I would be an irresponsible parent to let them drive before I feel that they can do it with the skill and safety necessary. Why do you think there are so many traffic deaths amoung teenagers? coincidence? I don't get you guys. Anyway, all you that seem to know my kids better than me can go screw yourselves. And why do you think kids are staying with thier parents longer? It's the nanny state they've been raised in, and it's not the same as what I'm doing with my kids. They take advanced courses because they are smart and I encourage them to. They will not be returning to my house after college, unless it's just so they can look for a job. There's no nanny state in my house, but am I supposed to let them go on the streets when I think they aren't ready? Do you have kids? If I'm rambling, it's because I'm flabbergasted that any of you would assume you know me or my kids, or that in a thread about teenage deaths, that you would actually encourage letting kids drive when they aren't ready.

bravenrace wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Experience does not come from age - it comes from doing.

Responsibity and maturity come with age. And you are one person, not a statistic. You are not a large enough sample size to represent the whole.

I was responding to the notion that you can paint who is an who isn't an experienced driver by how old they are. Experience behind the wheel cannot be gotten any other way than driving but you can get a lot of drive time in before you can drive legally. Maturity is subjective and there are many adults that lack enough of it to make the statement that it comes with age. It is also due to life experience. Some kids have had to be responsible for an awful lot early on. I'd toss the keys to my 911 to our kid's babysitter in a heartbeat - I wouldn't even tell her brothers where I keep them.

Regardless - I wouldn't presume to tell anyone how to raise their kids or when to give them the keys.

It's too bad these kids died, but this sort of thing has been going on forever...some young kids get in accidents and die. It's not a new phenomenon, it happened when I was that age in the 1970s, it happened when my dad was that age in the 1920s.

It may be happening more often now than it used to, but I think we just hear about it more often because of the electronic media that exists today. As far as that goes, I don't know about other states but the death rate from car accidents in 2010 here in Minnesota was the lowest it's been since 1944.

First wreck at 16 - taught me rain and bad tires make for bad situations

Second wreck at 20 - taught me snow is slippery and if a snow covered parking lot has a telephone pole...we should stay as far away from it as possible.

Third wreck at 23 - slow down and never expect the other guy to acknowledge your existence (he pulled out in front of me who was going 60mph).

However, driving stupid and wreckless also probably saved my life in wreck #3. I made a few instinctive decisions that kept me from t-boning the dude in the minivan and instead took his entire front end off. Had I not thought in that split second "go around him" and just held the brake, I would've probably killed both of us.

So yea, if anything, I'd want my kids to experience a wreck (in a controlled environment like racing) so that way they realize that a car might be a cage but that doesn't mean your isolated from injury. This doesn't mean I want them to get injured in a wreck, but just to see how thin sheet metal is.

This thread has taken an interesting turn. Some of you who are going on about "maturity" might want to reread your posts. Sheesh.

1988RedT2 wrote: This thread has taken an interesting turn. Some of you who are going on about "maturity" might want to reread your posts. Sheesh.

I spent hours over the weekend murdering virtual ww-II nazi zombies, doing figure-8s in a parking lot with a 7000lb diesel truck and cackling at inappropriate jokes over 3 fingers of scotch (not all at the same time but think that might be awesome too - but didn't see any zombies or scotch in the parking lot).

I didn't mean to imply that I have any level of demonstrable maturity myself only that there are people far younger that do.

How many of you that are parents have done a walk-around of a totaled car with your kids? I ask because my grandfather towed for many years and we would see the cars at the garage. Twisted metal up close and in person does make an impression. I'm not saying that your kids need to see the vehicle that their classmates died in (Or maybe they do ?) A 2011 update of "Blood on the Highway" from Drivers Ed....

Oh, one other thing, what do you do when this is a result of overdriving the condition of the vehicles tires ?

ddavidv wrote: "When are we going to stop letting children who can pass a parallel parking test drive?"

I've been saying the same thing for a while
if only we had the kind of driving education kids get in finland.
It's far too easy to pass a driving test here, and it shows by the amount of morons that are out there that can't drive for anything.

DukeOfUndersteer wrote: I agree! Plus, when are parents gonna stop buying brand new hot rods for 16 year olds? See it all the time: E60 M5 (the famous "how can i do 160 on the M5 forums), Shelby GT500s, C5/C6 Corvettes.... Its like handing them a loaded gun and saying "Go Play."

I couldn't agree w/ this more, but it always spawns the "I had a 400hp xxxxx when I was in high school" responses. I say--way more ability to F oneself up with 400hp than there is w/ 100hp. Granted, they F'ed themselves up pretty well with 120hp.

So much moralizing comes with these situations--"they were saints/they were athletes/they were athletic saints" They were also too dim to know their limits. It'll never change. The more we see of the trophy generation growing up, the more we're going to see more of these stories.

In reply to gamby:

Well, that pretty much sums it up.

Guys, guys, we talked about this last week. Freedom kills kids.

experience comes from EXPERIENCES.
that is all.

Osterkraut wrote: Guys, guys, we talked about this last week. Freedom kills kids.

I propose an immediate ban on freedom. Wait... DOH! Too late.

corytate wrote: experience comes from EXPERIENCES. that is all.

...which take time...

These days the need to drive is too great.

Even with the ridiculous non-tests we have now people fail often, and you even hear stories of people who fail many many times in a row.

I think what we basically say as a society is that the driving test needs to be easy enough for anyone to pass so we don't take away anyones "right" to drive.

Kinda sad we put convenience over safety, then blame others for the lack of safety.

RedS13Coupe wrote: These days the need to drive is too great. Even with the ridiculous non-tests we have now people fail often, and you even hear stories of people who fail many many times in a row. I think what we basically say as a society is that the driving test needs to be easy enough for anyone to pass so we don't take away anyones "right" to drive. Kinda sad we put convenience over safety, then blame others for the lack of safety.

Bingo ! it's considered a "right" to drive... where it once was a privilege !

Chebbie_SB wrote:

RedS13Coupe wrote: These days the need to drive is too great. Even with the ridiculous non-tests we have now people fail often, and you even hear stories of people who fail many many times in a row. I think what we basically say as a society is that the driving test needs to be easy enough for anyone to pass so we don't take away anyones "right" to drive. Kinda sad we put convenience over safety, then blame others for the lack of safety.

Bingo ! it's considered a "right" to drive... where it once was a privilege !

In my house it still is.

RedS13Coupe wrote: These days the need to drive is too great. Even with the ridiculous non-tests we have now people fail often, and you even hear stories of people who fail many many times in a row. I think what we basically say as a society is that the driving test needs to be easy enough for anyone to pass so we don't take away anyones "right" to drive. Kinda sad we put convenience over safety, then blame others for the lack of safety.

Bingo ! it's considered a "right" to drive... where it once was a privilege !

Chebbie_SB wrote:

RedS13Coupe wrote: These days the need to drive is too great. Even with the ridiculous non-tests we have now people fail often, and you even hear stories of people who fail many many times in a row. I think what we basically say as a society is that the driving test needs to be easy enough for anyone to pass so we don't take away anyones "right" to drive. Kinda sad we put convenience over safety, then blame others for the lack of safety.

Bingo ! it's considered a "right" to drive... where it once was a privilege !

In my house it still is.