In reply to Flynlow (FS) :
I agree completely.
Im just troubled by the subtext of this thread which seems to imply that a company is not being fair if they don't "at least keep up with inflation".
The company is not the Big Bad Wolf.
In reply to Flynlow (FS) :
I agree completely.
Im just troubled by the subtext of this thread which seems to imply that a company is not being fair if they don't "at least keep up with inflation".
The company is not the Big Bad Wolf.
I was once told something interesting by my boss...
It was my first job with this company. It was a difficult complicated expensive commercial remodel. $1.5 million. Every single day there were changes and unanticipated expenses, and I knew they weren't being tracked well (and therefore not being billed). I said to the owner "I'm concerned. I don't know how you are gonna make money on this job"
He looked at me quizzically, laughed, then said, "You're not in the profit column. You're in the marketing column. We don't make money on remodels like this. We do these jobs for our good customers so that we can land the more lucrative ones from them later".
That blew my mind. I realized not only that he viewed me as an expense, but that he was willing to invest in a $1.5 million job that he didn't expect to make money on in the HOPE that he would land future work.
I recognized this was a man who played the long game. He built his company on relationships that he was willing to invest both time and money in.
That's why I still work for him. And that's why I have been instrumental in landing 15 other projects with that same original customer.
And that's why he pays me well. Does the pay keep up with inflation? Don't know, don't care.
SV reX said:The inflation rate in 2022 was 8%. If salaries were pegged to inflation (to be "fair") and the inflation rate were to drop to 2% in 2023, we'd bitch about that. THAT'S not fair!! Last year they gave me 8%!
I'm actually of the opinion that the companies that do exactly this and are transparent about it, along with linking bonuses directly to company profits do the absolute best at retaining employees.
Can pull actual numbers tomorrow but off the top of my head annual cost of living year to year increase averaged 2.25% and promotions got ya 10-15% over the past 10 years.
A raise? Is?
I am in commission sales - want more money? Go sell more.
Datsun310Guy said:A raise? Is?
I am in commission sales - want more money? Go sell more.
If you earn a % of sales, then you automatically get a raise as prices increase.
Beer Baron said:Datsun310Guy said:A raise? Is?
I am in commission sales - want more money? Go sell more.
If you earn a % of sales, then you automatically get a raise as prices increase.
I've always earned a percent of profit so I'm motivated to sell as profitably as I can. I set my own prices so I do have some control on my money.
First salary was x. 29 years later, 7.8x.
Like others my best gains over 30 years came by jumping jobs. Highly recommended.
2017 to 2020 - maybe 4% a year plus 8% stock increase (RSUs)
2020-2022 - 45% cash increase and 20% stock increase
2022+ - -35% cash and +65% stock increase
Tech sector is all over the place but Covid drove big bumps across the board for everyone in tech that job switched.
I have a question regarding raises. Say you are hired to do a job and it pays $40/hour. that is the going rate for the job. A couple of years go by and the going rate for that same job is still $40/hour. Why should that person get a raise If the work product is the same etc. Should they get a raise just for time served? At some point the powers that be will just higher two or three JR people for the same money. or higher someone else that is willing to work for that money.
This kind of happened to my dad at the end of his career. He was making about 200K a year and was very good at what he did but as they explained to him they could higher three JR engineers at 50-60K a year and get more volume of work done and be spending less. He was not happy about it but he understood. As he put it he was let go because he priced himself out of a job.
I am not saying that raises are not deserved but the concept of getting yearly raises for no improvement in performance and no increase in the market price for the job does not make scene to me either. Up until recently, inflation has been a non factor but that has obviously changed and I think companies absolutely have to be cognizant of that.
I have been working for myself for a very long time so if I want a raise I have to work harder and smarter and not just ask a boss for a raise. I am sure I am out of touch with the vast majority of the workforce.
OHSCrifle said:First salary was x. 29 years later, 7.8x.
Like others my best gains over 30 years came by jumping jobs. Highly recommended.
Same. I'd be making much much less had I stayed at my first job out of college.
Scotty Con Queso said:OHSCrifle said:First salary was x. 29 years later, 7.8x.
Like others my best gains over 30 years came by jumping jobs. Highly recommended.
Same. I'd be making much much less had I stayed at my first job out of college.
My 29 year timeline seems pretty good but the end is amplified by a very low starting salary.
My current company tends to "slow play" salary increases and title advancement - especially if you don't ask. Introverts are punished.. effectively.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:2023 -- no bump, LMC filed CH 11 bankruptcy, i got a layoff notice effective Nov 10 2023
I'm sorry to hear this. Any solid plans for what's next?
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:1991 entered job market with BS in Mechanical Engineering. Fed job, started as GS-5 Engineer (because <3.0 GPA)
Wow, things have changed, I don't know that you can hire anyone with an engineering degree for less than a GS-9 anymore. A 7 maybe, but highly unlikely. (That might be intern pay) Either that or the GS levels have shifted since then. My office doesn't hire many entry level people though.
So for GS work, we have regular pay raises, we have merit (step) increases, and we have grade (GS) increases. A position can have a range.
The GS pay scale tables are public, (just Google it) and have locality adjustments, so pretty much nobody is on the base GS scale, for instance, in the DC area the locality adjustments is about 32.5%. The steps come with time and good performance evaluations, first few are yearly, then they move down in frequency. Grade increases (if your PD has the promotion potential) take good performance and additional responsibilities. If your position runs out of promotion potential, all you can get are steps, if you want a grade increase, go apply and compete for another position.
as far as base raises, I feel like we struggle to keep up with inflation. It's certainly not directly linked and varies greatly by presidential administration. https://www.federalpay.org/gs/raises
I've done pretty well, went from contractor to fed in 2017 and managed 4 grade increases in that time. Hoping to get 5.2% next year along with earning my usual step increase. We will see what the administration and Congress work out. We are still catching up from some past years I think.
In the balance, industry pays better, but it's much more stable working for the man.
Angry, you looking? PM me if you are, my office has some remote eligible positions up or coming up that you might be interested in.
Datsun310Guy said:Beer Baron said:Datsun310Guy said:A raise? Is?
I am in commission sales - want more money? Go sell more.
If you earn a % of sales, then you automatically get a raise as prices increase.
I've always earned a percent of profit so I'm motivated to sell as profitably as I can. I set my own prices so I do have some control on my money.
My point remains. You do not need to renegotiate for a cost-of-living increase to keep up with inflation, because the cost of goods will increase with inflation. So you will earn more selling the same number of units.
Yes, if you want the equivalent of a promotion-raise, you need to sell more. Work better, smarter, more efficiently to get more value out of your time. This is why people in non-commission positions want raises above inflation. They also (presumably) have learned to work better, smarter, more efficiently and bring greater value to their company.
dean1484 said:I have a question regarding raises. Say you are hired to do a job and it pays $40/hour. that is the going rate for the job. A couple of years go by and the going rate for that same job is still $40/hour. Why should that person get a raise If the work product is the same etc. Should they get a raise just for time served? At some point the powers that be will just higher two or three JR people for the same money. or higher someone else that is willing to work for that money.
Because the company is not selling the product for the same amount they used to. They are selling it for more because of inflation. Or they sell for the same amount, but with a larger profit margin due to efficiency increases and paying off initial costs of R&D, tooling, etc.
As you've worked longer, you have developed valuable operational knowledge of the business and practices making you more valuable. Hiring and training you was risky and costly, and now you have paid off that initial investment and your labor is effectively more profitable the same as the equipment that has been paid off.
Knowledgeable, experienced workers are who you need in order to train the new incoming workers.
Usually one good worker in a critical position can get more done than two mediocre workers. Two people can't type on one computer faster than one. Only so many mechanics can work on one engine simultaneously.
Giving raises to reward long-term workers improves morale, increases retention, and cuts down on the MASSIVE cost and inefficiency of staff churn. New workers see that doing good work for this company and building the systemic experience of the people training them will be rewarded. This incentivizes an employee to stay with the company rather than jump ship to shop around for a better offer.
dean1484 said:I have been working for myself for a very long time so if I want a raise I have to work harder and smarter and not just ask a boss for a raise. I am sure I am out of touch with the vast majority of the workforce.
So a lot of the opinions in this thread are the bosses (aka the company) is holding back money from the workers that they deserve and this is a counterpoint. The issue I have with this particular counterpoint is it assumes only bosses or entrepreneurs are working harder or smarter. IMO many of the workers are doing the exact same thing and those productivity gains often seem to go without much in the way of compensation. I think it is very regular that the employees who many bosses seem to think are knuckle dragging dolts are the ones that are driving incremental improvements in the business, not the manager or CEO.
On the other hand the owner assumes the risk and should be compensated as such. Notice I said the owner, not the upper manager of mega corp who assumes no risk at all.
NY Nick said:dean1484 said:I have been working for myself for a very long time so if I want a raise I have to work harder and smarter and not just ask a boss for a raise. I am sure I am out of touch with the vast majority of the workforce.
So a lot of the opinions in this thread are the bosses (aka the company) is holding back money from the workers that they deserve and this is a counterpoint. The issue I have with this particular counterpoint is it assumes only bosses or entrepreneurs are working harder or smarter. IMO many of the workers are doing the exact same thing and those productivity gains often seem to go without much in the way of compensation. I think it is very regular that the employees who many bosses seem to think are knuckle dragging dolts are the ones that are driving incremental improvements in the business, not the manager or CEO.
On the other hand the owner assumes the risk and should be compensated as such. Notice I said the owner, not the upper manager of mega corp who assumes no risk at all.
Lately I feel like all of the lower level "productivity gains" are just offsetting policies sent down from corporate! Often it is a struggle even to keep pace with the efficiency of the previous year.
Beer Baron said:dean1484 said:I have a question regarding raises. Say you are hired to do a job and it pays $40/hour. that is the going rate for the job. A couple of years go by and the going rate for that same job is still $40/hour. Why should that person get a raise If the work product is the same etc. Should they get a raise just for time served? At some point the powers that be will just higher two or three JR people for the same money. or higher someone else that is willing to work for that money.
Because the company is not selling the product for the same amount they used to. They are selling it for more because of inflation. Or they sell for the same amount, but with a larger profit margin due to efficiency increases and paying off initial costs of R&D, tooling, etc.
As you've worked longer, you have developed valuable operational knowledge of the business and practices making you more valuable. Hiring and training you was risky and costly, and now you have paid off that initial investment and your labor is effectively more profitable the same as the equipment that has been paid off.
Knowledgeable, experienced workers are who you need in order to train the new incoming workers.
Usually one good worker in a critical position can get more done than two mediocre workers. Two people can't type on one computer faster than one. Only so many mechanics can work on one engine simultaneously.
Giving raises to reward long-term workers improves morale, increases retention, and cuts down on the MASSIVE cost and inefficiency of staff churn. New workers see that doing good work for this company and building the systemic experience of the people training them will be rewarded. This incentivizes an employee to stay with the company rather than jump ship to shop around for a better offer.
I think all of those are good points. But I understand Dean's argument that at some point the cost of experience staff is too high to justify retaining them. If you started at the beginning of time and you now make $200k producing some widget, the company can get someone else experienced (the next guy in line usually) to do that for significantly less $ with no loss in quality, value etc.
We've all been at a company that had someone hanging around thats been there for 30 years who really isn't any better at their job than the guy who has been there 10 years.
In reply to Beer Baron :
If a company is selling their product for more because inflation has pushed the price up, don't forget that all their costs and expenses have also risen.
And the nature of supply and demand suggests that there are likely downward pressures on their sales as their prices rise.
So, they have higher costs in creating their product, higher prices to market, and lower demand for their product.
It's a difficult balance to navigate.
In reply to SV reX :
In some industries and cases you are correct in other industries the base cost is set by taking costs and applying a margin %. If the cost to produce goes up, the margin is applied to the new cost to produce and +=+ you end up with greater profit (same margin). Again this isn't all industries some pricing is based on what people will pay and in that case the seller is more likely to have to drop margin to stay competitive.
SV reX said:
The company is not the Big Bad Wolf.
But that's the new in thing. Companies are all bad. Rich people are all bad. Capitalism is the root of all evil etc etc. The real estate thread is very clear on where people are leaning right now.
EDITED on a desktop to make it cleaner.
In reply to bobzilla :
It bothers me that you snipped the quote and left my name attached to it, because it changes the context of that comment considerably...IE SV reX's first line was "I agree completely". May not have been deliberate on your part, but just as an FYI.
I am in no way a "Companies are all bad, Rich people are all bad, Capitalism is the root of all evil" person, and I avoided the real estate thread. I said, "Most full time jobs should pay a living wage", and I stand by that. I imagine over a beer SV reX and I (and most in this thread) would align on 95% of our views.
Mine is a little weird as I took a step back to actually be at home and have some roots post covid and I was in sales for a lot of it.
2011-16: Pretty flat. (Sales for 11-14) I did get significant stock options 2014-16 that actually went well.
2016-2018: 10% a year for those year
Back to sales:
2018: 60% pay increase (Promotion-Global Role)
2019: 25% Pay increase (Promotion to Global leadership role)
2020: 2% pay but got a nice stock bonus
2021: Team closed a $1B+ deal and got 50% more with commissions
2022: Stepped back to Program management and TTC was 15% above 2017 level
2023: Took on a global product leadership role again and 15% raise. So more inline with 2018 pay.
So yeah. All over the map. Happy for the change in the last 2 years. I stepped back because of choice. I could easily be at the 2019-2020 pay rate. I get calls all of the time. This is not counting any of my consulting or side work I've done.
bobzilla said:But that's the new in thing. Companies are all bad. Rich people are all bad. Capitalism is the root of all evil etc etc. The real estate thread is very clear on where people are leaning right now.
I don't know if it's entirely "new"... just different. In some ways, we've entered a new "gilded age" cycle of haves and have-nots. How long will it last? How will it change? Who knows... as someone once said, "history doesn't really repeat, but it often rhymes..."
OHSCrifle said:AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:2023 -- no bump, LMC filed CH 11 bankruptcy, i got a layoff notice effective Nov 10 2023
I'm sorry to hear this. Any solid plans for what's next?
thanks man, i appreciate the concern. i have put my resume out to 27 specific postings. 8 robo-rejections, 1 tech interview rejection, 17 no response yet. that adds up to 26.
number 27 has an interesting story which is still unfolding. i will share the story next week in a separate thread.
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