All Cars Are Terrible

alfadriver wrote: Sounds to me that you need to make your own resto-mod car. Find the ideal looking car, and go from there. The one thing I would suggest, though- instead of specific tech level requirements- I'd go more for the results. In the era you like- there were many live axle cars that handled and rode better than their IRS competitors. So instead of the IRS in the Mercedes, it's the ride and handling you like. Is there a Mercedes car that you like the looks of?

You make many valid observations. A resto-mod was what I was alluding to towards the end of my initial screed. Basically, if I could take a W123 and install something around 200 HP and wrap a neat, mid-sized retro coat around the whole thing, I'd be set.

Agreed, I ought to be more qualitative about my desires. Although, in fairness, IRS is nearly always the route to the handling/ ride I appreciate. What cars were you referring to, specifically? I mean, sure, a '69 Imperial rides nicer than a '69 Mercedes, but it's going to be wholly impractical for at least two other reasons.

I should also add air conditioning to my list. Which is a ding against the Jag. The engine compartment's rather narrow, too, making retrofitting some A/C a real PITA.

As for Mercs I like the styling of...yes, but then you start getting back into the swing-axle/ funky half-axle stuff that Merc was doing in the 60's. And I don't think they're good-enough looking to be worth trying to fit something different.

In reply to Bobzilla:

I actually kinda like the Forte5. The 201 Hp 6 speed manual is a cool option. It's unfortunate that it sends all that zoom to the wrong end of the car.

In fairness, I have driven FWD cars that I found enjoyable. It's just that they were tiny track toys that had too many other compromises to be The Answer.

volvoclearinghouse wrote: RWD, manual transmission, 4 wheel independent suspension, Excellent brakes, enough power to feel "peppy", good enough fuel economy that I can afford to drive it, comfortable seats, excellent visibility, simple enough to be reliable and easy/ enjoyable to work on, and attractive styling. I'd say those are the big hitters on my "want list". Name me a car that hits them all. I dare you. Hint: anything made after around 1972 is probably going to miss in the styling department.

All i can think of in your list of requirements is bmw's and corvettes. I dont know how you feel about either of those. It is tough because so many of the things are subjective. What you consider peppy, good seating, good visibility and easy to work on may be completely different from me to you.

But if you want those things and 60s styling, i guess see what body will fit on a C5 chassis.

In reply to volvoclearinghouse:

The one stick axle example I like is the 105/115 Alfa. They ride great, stock.

As for the jag- it can be improved on. But it won't be carbed anymore. I bet that it has the same compromise as the same period Alfa- just RPM advance for the spark. With proper control, you can up the compression, put in better spark, etc- all to raise the fuel efficiency of the engine.

In reply to volvoclearinghouse:

Mine was the first gen with the NA big block. I liked that more than the turbo cars.

In reply to alfadriver:

The Jag has a mechanical advance for RPM-based spark advance, but also has a vacuum advance for cruising. And, admittedly, I've driven it only about 80 miles since I've gotten it- most of which I've spent being intoxicated by the sweet inline 6 noises and torque, rather than driving responsibly.

I mean, it's a 3.8 litre carbureted inline six, with a manual transmission and overdrive, in a 3000 pound car. The '63 Dart I had once was basically the same thing, but with an automatic, and it used to get 25 mpg.

I'd love one of those Alfas. Unfortunately, I'd feel guilty driving such a car daily. And popping down 20-30k for a decent, sorted daily driver feels somewhat extravagant.

Honestly every time I think about my "perfect vehicle". It looks a bit like the Targa truck.

I'm certain I haven't experienced nearly as many different cars as most of you on here, but the closest I've gotten yet to my "Goldilocks" car is BMW. My E36 328is is still probably my favorite all around car I've owned to date - enough power, decent fuel economy, excellent ride/handling balance, fun to rip around the cones or a favorite back road, but wouldn't tire you out on an interstate slog either. I need another Bimmer in my life one of these days.

my vote is for a Super Stadium Truck

they are fast (somewhere around 800 hp), go around corners pretty good (all tires optional), can handle rough roads (like if a bridge is out and you have to jump it), and have the utility of your average pickup (more or less...)

gearheadmb wrote: All i can think of in your list of requirements is bmw's and corvettes. I dont know how you feel about either of those. It is tough because so many of the things are subjective. What you consider peppy, good seating, good visibility and easy to work on may be completely different from me to you. But if you want those things and 60s styling, i guess see what body will fit on a C5 chassis.

Here we go with the requirement creep again but...it should seat at least 4 people (though a 2 door is OK), so that shoots the Corvette out. And we've already covered my anti-Bimmer bias thoroughly.

I can define my subjective requirements the same way Potter Stewart defined pornography: I know it when I see it.

volvoclearinghouse wrote:

In reply to alfadriver:

The Jag has a mechanical advance for RPM-based spark advance, but also has a vacuum advance for cruising. And, admittedly, I've driven it only about 80 miles since I've gotten it- most of which I've spent being intoxicated by the sweet inline 6 noises and torque, rather than driving responsibly.

I mean, it's a 3.8 litre carbureted inline six, with a manual transmission and overdrive, in a 3000 pound car. The '63 Dart I had once was basically the same thing, but with an automatic, and it used to get 25 mpg.

I'd love one of those Alfas. Unfortunately, I'd feel guilty driving such a car daily. And popping down 20-30k for a decent, sorted daily driver feels somewhat extravagant.

BUT- it does seem, at least, that we have a vehicle that comes very close to clicking all of your wants. So if we can help you modify your car to make it hit the mark, IMHO- this board can do it. With all of the work coming from you, of course.

Seriously, I do think that if fuel economy is the major problem with your jag, that can be improved a lot. Not to be perfect, but much better. And it would likely improve the performance, as well. Modernize the power train controls, and you can gain a lot.

Other niggling issues- like reliability- would have to be individually addressed.

Chadeux wrote: Honestly every time I think about my "perfect vehicle". It looks a bit like the Targa truck.

MUCH LOVE

In reply to alfadriver:

Once the Jag is sorted to the point where I'm comfortable driving it into work a few times, I can decided if it can be improved easily to be the daily I seek. I.E. if fuel economy can be improved, handling is acceptable, and HVAC is either not an issue or can somehow be retrofitted.

Right now I'm into the car for around 4k, so there's some wiggle room to spend on it to make it nice. I do love how it looks, despite what the critics in the 60's thought of it.

All cars are awesome.

No other piece of machinery which we deal with as consumers is able to deal with extreme differences in duty cycles, often the same car will sit still, with no shutdown procedure or cooldown period, for months at a time, and then be called into action to run constantly for hours with no warmup period. They are asked to perform as new decades after being built, with essentially zero maintenance, while costing an incredibly small amount. They are asked to keep us comfortable in extremely high and extremely low temperatures, to be equally easy to creep along in traffic as they are screaming down a highway. They are unbelievably capable of protecting occupants in terrifying crashes with amazing energy, often times being able to drive away after such incidents.

The modern automobile may be the finest piece of machinery any of us will ever even see.

tuna55 wrote: All cars are awesome. No other piece of machinery which we deal with as consumers is able to deal with extreme differences in duty cycles, often the same car will sit still, with no shutdown procedure or cooldown period, for months at a time, and then be called into action to run constantly for hours with no warmup period. They are asked to perform as new decades after being built, with essentially zero maintenance, while costing an incredibly small amount. They are asked to keep us comfortable in extremely high and extremely low temperatures, to be equally easy to creep along in traffic as they are screaming down a highway. They are unbelievably capable of protecting occupants in terrifying crashes with amazing energy, often times being able to drive away after such incidents. The modern automobile may be the finest piece of machinery any of us will ever even see.

Well said sir.

In reply to tuna55:

i agree and disagree.... some cars/trucks WANT to live. Others just want to return to the earth. The Wife's old Accent wanted to please. Nothing you did to that thing would kill it. The new-to-me truck, same. There have been a dozen things that should have kept this thing from moving, yet it continues to thrive. Wife's friend had a tercel that nothing you could do to it would keep it running, same with the wife's RAV.

In reply to tuna55:

I am consistently amazed by how solid they are, on average. I left my 1993 Volvo outside on top of a parking garage in Atlanta for 3 months over the summer, then when I came back I checked the oil, put they key in, and was making boost within 3 minutes. Everything in me says that shouldn't work, but it does.

tuna55 wrote: All cars are awesome. No other piece of machinery which we deal with as consumers is able to deal with extreme differences in duty cycles, often the same car will sit still, with no shutdown procedure or cooldown period, for months at a time, and then be called into action to run constantly for hours with no warmup period. They are asked to perform as new decades after being built, with essentially zero maintenance, while costing an incredibly small amount. They are asked to keep us comfortable in extremely high and extremely low temperatures, to be equally easy to creep along in traffic as they are screaming down a highway. They are unbelievably capable of protecting occupants in terrifying crashes with amazing energy, often times being able to drive away after such incidents. The modern automobile may be the finest piece of machinery any of us will ever even see.

I agree, but I'd like to add something.

No other piece of machinery is operated regularly by people completely untrained and unskilled in maintenance and operation, and expected to run exceptionally well after years of abuse by incompetent operators.

SVreX wrote:

tuna55 wrote: All cars are awesome. No other piece of machinery which we deal with as consumers is able to deal with extreme differences in duty cycles, often the same car will sit still, with no shutdown procedure or cooldown period, for months at a time, and then be called into action to run constantly for hours with no warmup period. They are asked to perform as new decades after being built, with essentially zero maintenance, while costing an incredibly small amount. They are asked to keep us comfortable in extremely high and extremely low temperatures, to be equally easy to creep along in traffic as they are screaming down a highway. They are unbelievably capable of protecting occupants in terrifying crashes with amazing energy, often times being able to drive away after such incidents. The modern automobile may be the finest piece of machinery any of us will ever even see.

I agree, but I'd like to add something. No other piece of machinery is operated regularly by people completely untrained and unskilled in maintenance and operation, and expected to run exceptionally well after years of abuse by incompetent operators.

True. We train people like crazy to operate and maintain turbines which do much the same thing every time, and they still break with alarming regularity in very spectacular ways.

I have thought every car I have ever owned was perfect...until I didn't. Even the worst of them were perfect for at least a short time.

Of all the cars I've owned, the most missed is a 1987 Lincoln Town Car. It was perfect for a long time. Dead nuts reliable, happy cruising down the road at just about any speed, more comfortable than my living room at home. Other than the vinyl roof, it even aged gracefully. I search CL for them on occasion, but most of them are well abused at this point.

Been driving since 1959, bought my first car in 1966. My current one is as close to perfect all-round as any I have had previously.

Only change I might have made is to get the 6 cyl rather than the 4.

Out of the dozens of cars I've owned there are a couple that stand out - an 86 911 - which doesn't hit your 4-5 seater requirement (even though it sort of has 4 seats). The other was an 86 BMW e28. It was built with quality materials, engineered well, easy to work on, comfy to commute in and could move along well. It could hold its own at A/X - could have been a lot better a little lower and with better tires, but commuting comfort won that one. A euro bumper upgrade away from looking a fair bit better and consistent with the family look from the 70s (although I think the e12-e28s look at least as good as their 1972 counterparts the e3s). Sorry you had a bad experience with a 2002 that seems to have jaded things a bit.

Aside from power my zephyr ticks all the boxes for me, thats how diffrent we are as people, and car companys have too build things that appeal too wide varietys of people. The perfect car for you may be something other people hate.

In rebuttal to tuna55:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/4jOMcAlO7rQ