Altering a load bearing wall

This may be academic until it is all said and done, but I may want to alter a load bearing wall in my house for a fireplace.

Here is the front of my house.  The orange lines indicate what I believe to be the original structure built in the early 1900s.

Therefore, the left-most orange line I believe to be a load-bearing wall.  This is also evidenced by what I see in the attic.  The orange lines appear to be the original structure, then the kitchen was added, then the (what are now) bedrooms on the left being the most recent.  If my amateur construction and electrical sleuthing are correct, the main structure was built in the earlier part of the 1910s, then the kitchen and bedrooms were added in the 20s which plays out with the time period in which this neighborhood was built.  Best guess is that this original structure was a summer kitchen, carriage house, garage, or other auxiliary structure that was erected on an estate around the turn of the century.  Then in the 20s when this area became developed it was turned into an actual house.  Strangely, it appears that the basement was added in 1947, if I believe the carving someone put into a cinder block down there.

So, in the following image, the living room is that orange-lined part of the structure.  I'm putting in a wood-burning fireplace.  As you'll note, the scale CAD below shows my two best options.  Option A is in the back right corner (in the picture above, the furthest right corner nearest the garage).  Option B makes more sense aesthetically. (under the TV basically).

Quick notes on the fireplace:  It is a zero-tolerance installation (well, technically anywhere from 3/4" to 1") insulated firebox that gets framed in with typical combustible framing, so I don't need to do any house framing so to speak, I would just need to frame up the box for the fireplace itself.

Location A benefits:  Ease of installation, easy access to an outside wall for a fresh air intake.
Location A shortcomings:  Eats up some real estate in an already tiny house, and would require a chimney that comes straight up from the corner of the house about 8-9' additional elevation for proper draft.  Also, that is the windward side of the house and less ideal for draft.

Location B benefits:  It would more or less replace that lower entertainment center (that stuff is easily moved to the shelves that flank it) so it wouldn't take up much more space.  Centrally located means that the chimney could exit nearer the peak of the roof and only need to have about 3' sticking out above roof level.
Location B shortcomings: In truth, it would be deeper than that entertainment center by about 8" until you include a safe non-flammable extension, which doesn't seem like much in that fisheye view, but it is significant.  Since that is on the longer wall of the room, it might visually cut into the flow of the space.

So here comes my reason for wall modification for location B:  When I measure the thickness of the outside of the closet behind it, versus the depth of the inside of that same closet, I come up with 6" difference... that is to say, that suggests the wall is a total thickness of 6" which I guess to be 2x4 studs, plus two drywall thicknesses and possibly whatever cladding/sheathing was on that exterior originally.  My thought was (of course, after getting my borescope in the wall to investigate) to pull the drywall off behind the entertainment center and yank the framing/sheathing out and put a laminated beam across.  More or less just leaving the drywall in the closet but taking everything else out.  It would likely need to span about 3 studs depending on placement and spacing.  This would theoretically allow me to push the firebox back about 5" into the wall and reclaim a little of that space.  This would also (rather nicely) scoot the flue back by the same amount leaving less of a protrusion into the room for the chase above the mantle.

In case you want to dig deeper, here is the fireplace I have

Am I crazy?  I have nothing but time on my hands.  Can I do this without dying?

Curtis, everything else aside, it appears to me option A would be best for actually heating the house.

Seems fairly doable, basically just take the load off the wall with a couple of props, install your lvl header and Jack studs. Question though, are you planning on removing the bottom plate or lifting the fireplace up to clear it? If you remove it, what's the plaster along the bottom of the back side of the wall going to be attached to?

It doesn't look like you need to alter the structure in any major fashion to install either of those. If you need to go through the wall with something, you just need to frame it  and install a header like you would a window. 

Jerry From LA said:

Curtis, everything else aside, it appears to me option A would be best for actually heating the house.

Heating is actually #75,382 on the priority list.  Woodburning fireplaces are incredibly inefficient at heating.  As I told everyone who advised against it because of its inefficiency, "I want to hear it, I want to see it, I want to smell it."  The sales rep even tried to ask me a trick question when I was asking his product advice.

Salesperson: How much do you want to lower your heating bill?
Me (sarcastically): I'm shooting for no less than a 15 cent reduction each winter..
Salesperson:  Perfect answer.  Wood-burning it is.

Heating is next to zero priority, although if I happen to lose electricity for days at a time and therefore lose my gas furnace and my electric backup baseboards, keeping a hot fire going would provide enough for survival and to keep the pipes from freezing.

But your recommendation is perfectly wise, if I were using it as a heating source.

daeman said:

Seems fairly doable, basically just take the load off the wall with a couple of props, install your lvl header and Jack studs. Question though, are you planning on removing the bottom plate or lifting the fireplace up to clear it? If you remove it, what's the plaster along the bottom of the back side of the wall going to be attached to?

The bottom plate shouldn't be an issue, I'm hoping.  If it follows traditional construction (which in an old house with additions is unlikely), it should be a 2x4 sitting on top of the subfloor which is on top of the sill plate/foundation.  Removing it would therefore be an option.  The fireplace plans also offer you the option of raising the fireplace, however the plans are specific that the hearth extension be no lower than the bottom lip of the fireplace.  If I install the fireplace on the floor, the hearth extension could be as simple as some slate tile on the floor (which doesn't occupy additional floor space).  If I raise the fireplace by 2" to maintain clearance to a baseplate, my hearth extension will have to be 2" off the floor.

If I remove the framing and (supposedly) sheathing, the only thing supporting the drywall in the closet will be the drywall itself.  It would be a section that is 24" wide and about 36" tall, so I don't anticipate that being an issue - especially because it's a wall that is behind shelves with linens on it.  I drew a picture to show what (I think) it will look like.  If wobbly drywall is an issue where I removed the baseplate, I'm not opposed to nailing a 2x2 to the floor of the closet and securing the drywall at the bottom from behind the fireplace.

My guess as to what is existing in there:

My plan IF that is actually what is in there:

Edited to add mantle and chase to second drawing

Oh, and for clarity.  The darker shaded portion of the floor plan in this picture shows the basement under the structure.  The section under the living room, bathroom, and part of the Master are crawlspaces, but that darker-shaded basement is a foundation of cement block.  Hard to tell if it's concrete or cinder since it has several layers of paint on it, but I'm guessing cinder given that the newest construction I found was from the 40s.

Toyman01 (Forum Supporter) said:

It doesn't look like you need to alter the structure in any major fashion to install either of those. If you need to go through the wall with something, you just need to frame it  and install a header like you would a window. 

That's what I was thinking.  I've done this a few thousand times... in theater for a set that has to last 2 weeks without killing anyone and doesn't have the weight of a roof above it to support.  I just don't want to underestimate anything and end up with a collapsed house and a very amused insurance company.

No walls to go through.  The chimney can (and should) go as straight up as possible.  Adding curves drastically increases the required overall height that it needs to draft properly.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Your first plan it looked like the fireplace would overhang into the ro beside the closet so o was more concerned about the baseboard and bottom of the plaster being more prone to damage in a normal room. Seeing as it's only 22" and pretty much backing straight on to the closet, then I concur, it should be fine.

Here is another theater engineering trick I've done before.  This is in plan view (seen from the top).  If I'm framing something for a set design like a wider french door with a second level above it, I'll make my own "LVL".  The brown is existing studs.  The pink is jack studs of 2x4 on edge inside the existing studs, and a rectangle of 3/4 ply.  The 2x4 pieces are screwed on through the studs, then the ply is screwed to the 2x4 scabs and wedged into the hole, effectively putting any load onto a stressed-skin, and, in order for the studs to flex, or move, they would have to crush/deform the ply.

My thought here is... I have plenty of ply and 2x4s, but finding 3' of LVL is a little unlikely without buying a 21' stick and cutting off the piece I need.

Is this something I could do instead of an LVL, or in addition to?

daeman said:

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Your first plan it looked like the fireplace would overhang into the ro beside the closet so o was more concerned about the baseboard and bottom of the plaster being more prone to damage in a normal room. Seeing as it's only 22" and pretty much backing straight on to the closet, then I concur, it should be fine.

The back of the space I would cut out would likely include about 8" of the bathroom wall as well.  I might get the camera in there and discover that the left side of my cutout looks at the bathtub framing.

I'm sufficienlty curious now.  I'm going to go get my borescope and see what I can find.

There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that you need an LVL to support the load for a 48" span.  None.

In a house that small, you could do it with a 2x8 header.

The span is not your issue.

If it's truly load-bearing (and I am not sure I agree with you on that), then the issue is not the span.  That's easy.  The issue is what your support posts are sitting on at each end of the header.  They don't want to be sitting on the subfloor.  They want to be sitting on a framing member, which is sitting on the foundation, sill beam, or footing.  This probably means you are going to have to crawl under the area and add some framing or footing or pier to transfer the load.

Your unsupported drywall thing is weird.  I promise a future owner will tear into it and say "WTF was this moron thinking???"  But if you can live with it, it won't cause any harm.

What's the foundation like under your former exterior wall (behind location B)?

I am asking because you are concerned about roof loading on a header. You clearly understand house framing already. A "fireplace wide" wall opening isn't much... you could likely support it fine with very little anything - but my point in writing is making sure the jack studs that support the header have solid support between them and the foundation. The term to google is "squash blocks". If you have that item covered in your plan of attack - then carry on. 
 

As an aside - I'm always fascinated by trying to figure out old houses. Almost every house I ever owned has been measured upside down and sideways (by me) and drawn in cad. It's fun measuring from both sides and realizing somebody buried something inside a wall once upon a time.. just like you described in your closet wall. Hopefully it isn't hiding a cast iron stack!  (Edit: if you've been in the crawl space and attic.. that is probably already verified)
 

What svrex said.  

With one exception.  If you find out that the sillplate/foundation situation in that area is wierd and it would be a lot of work to put support under the floor you could put a horizontal beam Below the fireplace and have it be elevated like an insert above it.  That way the loads go out to your cripple studs around the outside of the fireplace, then come back to the original sill plate locations.  Advantage is your wall (which takes roof loads to the foundation) doesn't know it was modified at all.  Loads come into the top plate, down studs to your header, down cripple studs to the bottom header, back aross you lower header to the sill.  

Also it looks like the ridge over that room runs perpendicular to the wall you are modifying.  Depending on how lazy they where when they tied into the oldest roof there may not even be rafters resting on that wall anymore.  They likely cut them out to run a new ridge all the way to the old ridge then ran a board down the valleys to support the rafters.  (Now they woul just lay boards on top of the old roof and hack it together because they don't know how to frame roofs because all they know how to do is set premade trusses with a boomtruck and the kits usually only require them to attempt to badly frame gaps where the guy doing the measuring got the original roof pitch wrong.... .  /Midpost rant ) This would mean all that wall is doing is keeping the roof pitch from flattening from tension in it's top plate and supporting the ceiling.

One complication you may encounter may be that your house is baloon framed.  Meaning the walls sit on the foundation directly and there isn't a vertical ring board under the sill plate.  This actually may make your task easier as your sill would rest directly on the foundation and you won't have any pesky floor in the way.  The disadvantage is your floor is Supported by the wall so depending on how that is framed removing studs may be physically tricky.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

Jerry From LA said:

Curtis, everything else aside, it appears to me option A would be best for actually heating the house.

Heating is actually #75,382 on the priority list.  Woodburning fireplaces are incredibly inefficient at heating.  As I told everyone who advised against it because of its inefficiency, "I want to hear it, I want to see it, I want to smell it."  The sales rep even tried to ask me a trick question when I was asking his product advice.

Salesperson: How much do you want to lower your heating bill?
Me (sarcastically): I'm shooting for no less than a 15 cent reduction each winter..
Salesperson:  Perfect answer.  Wood-burning it is.

Heating is next to zero priority, although if I happen to lose electricity for days at a time and therefore lose my gas furnace and my electric backup baseboards, keeping a hot fire going would provide enough for survival and to keep the pipes from freezing.

But your recommendation is perfectly wise, if I were using it as a heating source.

I totally understand your comments But I'm going to say it anyway ( if I don't I won't sleep tonight).  Some wood burning stoves offer everything you desire in a fireplace except inefficiency.

SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

The span is not your issue.

If it's truly load-bearing (and I am not sure I agree with you on that), then the issue is not the span.  That's easy.  The issue is what your support posts are sitting on at each end of the header.  They don't want to be sitting on the subfloor.  They want to be sitting on a framing member, which is sitting on the foundation, sill beam, or footing.  This probably means you are going to have to crawl under the area and add some framing or footing or pier to transfer the load.

Your unsupported drywall thing is weird.  I promise a future owner will tear into it and say "WTF was this moron thinking???"  But if you can live with it, it won't cause any harm.

To your last point, I'm kind of already doing that "WTF" thing with the 100 years of previous owners.

To your first point, take a look at the rough drawings I did three pictures ago.  The jack studs would be sitting on subfloor, but directly above the sill/foundation.  The subfloor would just be a spacer between the foundation and the stud.  I'm certain I would be transferring weight directly to an existing support structure, in fact, directly to a concrete block foundation.

Also to your first point, you might be right.  The attic suggests this is a load bearing wall, if for no other reason that it was the exterior wall of the structure at some point in its life and another beam ties into it.  However, the borescope shows something different entirely.  So I made three holes.  One from the closet into the bathroom.  The wall beside the tub appears to be sheathing.  I then made two holes in the back of the closet (inside the wall where the TV hangs.) and found something interesting.  First of all, the drywall face inside the wall has wallpaper on it.  Pretty, pink, floral wallpaper.  So, either that used to be an exposed wall, or the recycled sheetrock.  I also found that the studs alternate in at least one place.  There is a 2x4 on the TV wall with about an inch behind it, and some 2x4 on the closet wall with about an inch behind it.  I don't think it could be load bearing.  I'll try a picture again.

My Borescope sucks and it has a teeny display.  There is a composite video out, but not sure it would do much better with 480-line resolution.  So this was like that thing where you put your hand in a bag, feel what's inside, then draw what you think you felt.  This is what I THINK I saw, but very unsure.  The arrows show where I drilled.  The red is a couple of studs I saw, but I was able to see around one to see the next one.  One attached to the closet wall, the next attached to the TV wall.  Total distance from the inside of the closet wall to the back of the gypsum was 5".give or take.  The studs pictured are the only ones I could physically see, but I'm sure there are more.  I remember finding two to hang the TV, so I know they exist.

OHSCrifle said:

What's the foundation like under your former exterior wall (behind location B)?

I am asking because you are concerned about roof loading on a header. You clearly understand house framing already. A "fireplace wide" wall opening isn't much... you could likely support it fine with very little anything - but my point in writing is making sure the jack studs that support the header have solid support between them and the foundation. The term to google is "squash blocks". If you have that item covered in your plan of attack - then carry on. 
 

As an aside - I'm always fascinated by trying to figure out old houses. Almost every house I ever owned has been measured upside down and sideways (by me) and drawn in cad. It's fun measuring from both sides and realizing somebody buried something inside a wall once upon a time.. just like you described in your closet wall. Hopefully it isn't hiding a cast iron stack!  (Edit: if you've been in the crawl space and attic.. that is probably already verified)
 

 

That wall sits on top of a beam that is about 4" x 10" actual.  That beam sits on top of a short stud wall which sits on top of the block foundation. Here is an actual photo of it.  This is in the basement.  The beam you can't see is the rough-sawn 4x10 with a 2x12 sistered on to it.  In this photo, I'm standing under the closet, and you're looking out into the crawlspace under the living room.

It would be super simple to add some studs between the foundation wall and the beam if necessary.

rustybugkiller said:

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

Jerry From LA said:

Curtis, everything else aside, it appears to me option A would be best for actually heating the house.

Heating is actually #75,382 on the priority list.  Woodburning fireplaces are incredibly inefficient at heating.  As I told everyone who advised against it because of its inefficiency, "I want to hear it, I want to see it, I want to smell it."  The sales rep even tried to ask me a trick question when I was asking his product advice.

Salesperson: How much do you want to lower your heating bill?
Me (sarcastically): I'm shooting for no less than a 15 cent reduction each winter..
Salesperson:  Perfect answer.  Wood-burning it is.

Heating is next to zero priority, although if I happen to lose electricity for days at a time and therefore lose my gas furnace and my electric backup baseboards, keeping a hot fire going would provide enough for survival and to keep the pipes from freezing.

But your recommendation is perfectly wise, if I were using it as a heating source.

I totally understand your comments But I'm going to say it anyway ( if I don't I won't sleep tonight).  Some wood burning stoves offer everything you desire in a fireplace except inefficiency.

Yup, and they at least partially take away the three big reasons I want a fireplace: see, hear, smell.  I could do an insert with a glass front and retain the "see," but that is only ONE of those properties, but it's not for me.  I grew up roasting hot dogs with mom and dad in front of an open brick fireplace and nearly every house I've lived in to date has had an open fireplace.  It's just a thing for me.  I don't want an insert, I don't want a stove, I want a fireplace that crackles.  I want to have a semi-circular rug in front of it with the occasional spark burn on it.  While I can't have a full masonry fireplace on my budget, I can at least have the fireplace part. 

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

rustybugkiller said:

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

Jerry From LA said:

Curtis, everything else aside, it appears to me option A would be best for actually heating the house.

Heating is actually #75,382 on the priority list.  Woodburning fireplaces are incredibly inefficient at heating.  As I told everyone who advised against it because of its inefficiency, "I want to hear it, I want to see it, I want to smell it."  The sales rep even tried to ask me a trick question when I was asking his product advice.

Salesperson: How much do you want to lower your heating bill?
Me (sarcastically): I'm shooting for no less than a 15 cent reduction each winter..
Salesperson:  Perfect answer.  Wood-burning it is.

Heating is next to zero priority, although if I happen to lose electricity for days at a time and therefore lose my gas furnace and my electric backup baseboards, keeping a hot fire going would provide enough for survival and to keep the pipes from freezing.

But your recommendation is perfectly wise, if I were using it as a heating source.

I totally understand your comments But I'm going to say it anyway ( if I don't I won't sleep tonight).  Some wood burning stoves offer everything you desire in a fireplace except inefficiency.

Yup, and they at least partially take away the three big reasons I want a fireplace: see, hear, smell.  I could do an insert with a glass front and retain the "see," but that is only ONE of those properties, but it's not for me.  I grew up roasting hot dogs with mom and dad in front of an open brick fireplace and nearly every house I've lived in to date has had an open fireplace.  It's just a thing for me.  I don't want an insert, I don't want a stove, I want a fireplace that crackles.  I want to have a semi-circular rug in front of it with the occasional spark burn on it.  While I can't have a full masonry fireplace on my budget, I can at least have the fireplace part. 
 

 

Some freestanding wood stoves not inserts have a screen that can be used in place of the glass door giving the same sounds and smells of a fireplace in addition to being able to cook food on the stove top. Then at the end of your enjoyment you can put the door back on and heat the house. I don't recall the brands, it's been awhile since I've checked them out. 

I've spent the last year and a half trying to find anything other than a fireplace that will give me what I want and haven't found it.  Above all, I really hate the look and real estate required for a freestanding stove.  Also the permitting and requirements for clearances to a freestanding stove make it a non-starter.

These days they all come with proprietary chimney parts and aren't designed to do anything but close the door and make heat, which I don't need - especially when my highest gas bill this winter was $46.  I want a fireplace.  I don't want a stove, I don't want a stove insert to convert a fireplace into a closed-face, glass-front heat maker.  I want a campfire inside my house.  Period.  I want to have a fire on a warm spring evening because I want a fire, not because I want heat.

A stove or an insert is great at making heat... which I don't want.  That means I close a door and make the house hot.  Heck, I'll have a fire in a fireplace in July or August just because I want a fire.  I WANT most of the heat to go out the flue so I can enjoy it more months out of the year.

The only answer would be an insert with a massive front door that can be burned when open... which doesn't exist.  You get a huge plate of steel with a tiny glass window in a door that is big enough to fit a log through, and it must be closed to burn because it's designed with flue diameters and venting that can only control the heat if the door is closed.

This project is 110% aesthetic and 2% practical.  I want to have fire in my house.  I want a romantic evening with SWMBO in front of a crackling fire while listening to Diana Krall and drinking wine.  I want the radiant heat to take the edge off a snowy morning with my coffee while watching the news.  I have access to about 50 acres of free, standing-dead Ash, Locust, Oak, Walnut, and Maple, along with 124 acres of free wood in WV and another 200 acres at the hunting camp.  

I want this:

I DO NOT want this:

And DEFINITELY not this:

Ok... if I'm being completely honest, what I WANT is this, but I have an 835 sf house and a non-profit-employee, quarantine budget.

What about this?

I'm totally SpongeBob in that picture.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

This isn't the first thread you have waxed eloquently about your desire for a fireplace. 
 

I'd say rustybugkiller must have missed that, but this is GRM. Since all GRM threads ignore what the OP is asking for and offer all manner of alternate suggestions (whether the OP wants them or not), I'd just say,  this is GRM! 

I think you are making some wise choices in pursuing what you want in a manner that is balanced and makes good sense. Congratulations! Enjoy it!!

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

I can see that! Haha!