Hot Rods are a very personal vision, and the buyers in Scottsdale don't seem to share that vision. High end rods seem to go for about a nickel on the dollar there, and I don't think its just this year.
Hot Rods are a very personal vision, and the buyers in Scottsdale don't seem to share that vision. High end rods seem to go for about a nickel on the dollar there, and I don't think its just this year.
I watched part of it last night. The 32 ford coupe with a 502/6-71/nitrous that went for about $30k was a steal for the engine alone, provided it was properly built for the blower and N2O.
I have also noticed this.
Lots of reasons:
They are not going to get more valuable with time.
I wonder if it has to do with the Pig-in-a poke reality of these type of cars. I mean, how well were they built, and how hard were they thrashed by the PO? Imagine getting your new toy home and in the course of fixing a stone chip discover that it is a bondo sculpture and the engine is thrashed and it wont go down the road straight? Did you ever watch the Boyd Codington show when the car "Went to paint"...more like an army of Mexicans and a bucket of bondo!
The other mark against them is they are kinda like buying a used trophy wife. Most of the Barret Jackson buyers wont do that again.
Pete
Hot rods seem to me like very personal creations. Why would I want someone else's?
Tom_Spangler said:Hot rods seem to me like very personal creations. Why would I want someone else's?
I agree that this is likely the reason why they are going for so cheap on Barrett Jackson, compared to how much it would have cost to build it. That being said, at the price that they are selling for, you would have money left over to repaint it and change other things to your liking, and still end up with a pretty good deal.
I am fully aware I will never get my money back from the Rice Rod for all these reasons stated above, so that's why I'm dumping so little into it 
There are a few shops in town who build cars specifically for auction at B-J. They're still around, so the math must work. They build nice stuff.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
And you can bet it took a car or two to find the magic formula and price-point and then build THAT formula all over again. Every system can be gamed once you figure it out.
I think markets change over time too. For awhile Pre War cars like Auburns and Duesenbergs sold for big bucks, then it was hot rods from the 30s and 40s, then 60s muscle cars, now we're seeing a rise in prices for 80s and early 90s vehicles. Somebody paid over $100k for a stock E30 M3 recently. Wagoneers and air cooled Porsches have blown up. In almost all of these cases, the most stock car typically fetches the highest prices too, so a highly modified custom may not bring that much money.
NOHOME said:In reply to Keith Tanner :
And you can bet it took a car or two to find the magic formula and price-point and then build THAT formula all over again. Every system can be gamed once you figure it out.
By gaming you mean "figuring out what really makes car guys drool and throw money at you". Yeah, that's gaming the system.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Exactly what I mean...but to be fair, the first time you build something you are going to spend a lot of money. If you commit to making it repeatable from the start, and take advantage of commonality of parts and an established build process, you can re-iterate at a decent price and profit. Stop me if this starts to sound familiar!
I did not mean to imply that they were selling crap, only that they found a formula that worked for this audience.
Pete
STM317 said:I think markets change over time too. For awhile Pre War cars like Auburns and Duesenbergs sold for big bucks, then it was hot rods from the 30s and 40s, then 60s muscle cars, now we're seeing a rise in prices for 80s and early 90s vehicles. Somebody paid over $100k for a stock E30 M3 recently. Wagoneers and air cooled Porsches have blown up. In almost all of these cases, the most stock car typically fetches the highest prices too, so a highly modified custom may not bring that much money.
Yeah, it's connected with the ages of the people who have the money to afford to be car collectors and the cars that they wanted (but couldn't afford) when they were young. The generation for whom that was pre-war cars are dying off, so values have been dropping.
There's big money in nostalgia but Pete's mostly right. If you're manipulating the situation for a desired outcome - making money, then it's more like working the system. Semantics, though.
Then pretty much everything we do as humans is gaming the system
I haven't talked to the guys about how many tries it took to get it right. It's fashion in large part, you have to nail the look and the money will follow. Some people have the knack, others don't. This is more true for hot rods than a lot of other types of car, but just look at how many times "stance" is mentioned in BaT comment threads!
Keith Tanner said:Then pretty much everything we do as humans is gaming the system
Ideally
Yes, I think it has everything to do with demographics and where the money is. A big sales driver is nostalgia. People who want cars they couldn't afford when they were teens and young adults. Those are '60s muscle cars. So the auction is an endless parade of cars from 1966 to 1971. I've complained about this before, but this is the first year I'm actually starting to change the channel after a while because I simply can't take it. "Well Mike Joy, tell us about this car..." "Well Rick, this is a 1969 Chevrolet Camaro...it's one of only 6 cars built on a Thursday when assembly line worker Chet was using his right hand to pick his nose. By time they had gotten to Friday, Chet had switched to his left hand, so those cars are different." Sigh....
I would love to see BJ have an auction day where only cars NOT built between say 1965 and 1972 cross the block. Give us some variety, for crying out loud.
Keith Tanner said:There are a few shops in town who build cars specifically for auction at B-J. They're still around, so the math must work. They build nice stuff.
How many of those are filler projects to keep guys busy in between customer projects?
In reply to Klayfish :
I don't have cable, so I haven't watched B-J in awhile, but I remember the Thursday auctions tended to have more interesting and more affordable cars cross the block. Otherwise, I tend to agree. As much as I am a fan of 60's muscle cars, it does get a bit repetitive after awhile.
maschinenbau said:I am fully aware I will never get my money back from the Rice Rod for all these reasons stated above, so that's why I'm dumping so little into it
Time no, but when it’s done I would gladly pay what cash outlay you have in it.
In reply to Ian F :
They actually start coverage on Tuesday now, so it's 6 days of TV coverage. To me, Tuesday and Wednesday are the most interesting days, because it's got the biggest variety. If I'm home tonight and tomorrow night, I'll watch some, but it really does get to be a muscle car parade (and I'm not really a fan of them anyway...don't hate, but don't love). Once in a while, they'll throw something else in during those prime time spots, but it's mostly "rare" muscle cars.
I was calling hot rod values as ready to plummet years ago. When I worked at AutoTrader Classics I spoke to a lot of specialty dealers across the country. The people who wanted hot rods...have them. And soon they won't be able to drive them because they are either too old, or dead. I'm not talking about the new style hot rods (rat rods, nostalgia builds, etc), I'm talking about your copy/paste Model A with a 350/350 combo cars that dominated GoodGuys shows for the last 20 years.
Yes there are outliers and young folks who like hot rods, but not the same numbers as the baby boomers who are leaving the hobby. The owners's kids don't want the cars (or the estate liquidates) and the cars get dumped on the market. As mentioned before, some cars are worth more as parts donors than assembled rods.
I'm not saying it is a good thing, just what I observed. I talked to several big collectors who told me flat out "when I die, my kids are going to sell them all off."
As for selling stuff to make money at Barrett-Jackson, that is a form of gambling best suited for Las Vegas. I guess if you had a supply of decent cars, cheap labor, a drum of resale red, and jobber pricing with Professional Products you could make a profit.
If I was going to unload one of my cars I'd take it straight to Streetside Classics and consign it. It may take a few months to sell, but I wouldn't have to deal with any idiots.
Ian F said:Keith Tanner said:There are a few shops in town who build cars specifically for auction at B-J. They're still around, so the math must work. They build nice stuff.
How many of those are filler projects to keep guys busy in between customer projects?
From what I've seen, they're treated like another customer car. They're in line with the others. You have a deadline with a B-J car. I know nobody wants this to work, but I've seen one of the cars and it was really nice.
I think this is an early sign of the slow re-alignment of the market for classic cars. It always starts with the edges of a market and I think hot rods are definitely at the edge of the classic car market. They look old but aren't really. They are highly personal. So the market will always be small.
I am starting to see the same thing with basic classic cars. MGB's have really starting to fall in price locally. There are still a few people that are asking top dollar for their car, but they aren't selling. Heck, I can now find a nice driver MGB for less than an equivalent NA Miata.
For a "young" guy like me that likes classic cars, this is great news as I think a lot of classic cars have been over-priced in recent years.
Klayfish said:Yes, I think it has everything to do with demographics and where the money is. A big sales driver is nostalgia. People who want cars they couldn't afford when they were teens and young adults. Those are '60s muscle cars. So the auction is an endless parade of cars from 1966 to 1971. I've complained about this before, but this is the first year I'm actually starting to change the channel after a while because I simply can't take it. "Well Mike Joy, tell us about this car..." "Well Rick, this is a 1969 Chevrolet Camaro...it's one of only 6 cars built on a Thursday when assembly line worker Chet was using his right hand to pick his nose. By time they had gotten to Friday, Chet had switched to his left hand, so those cars are different." Sigh....
I would love to see BJ have an auction day where only cars NOT built between say 1965 and 1972 cross the block. Give us some variety, for crying out loud.
That's because these are the cars that were really desirable 10 years or so ago, and now the owners (or their kids) are selling them due to lack of use or death of the owner (like what slefain said).
I'm guessing that market will crash hard in the next 5 to 10 years. I've talked to my car friends and we all agree that it would be a really hard decision to take a free good condition classic. I've got a life, kids and a race car. I'm not sure when I'd use something like that and where would I store it? My fun cars already live outside part of the time. I don't think they're my generation's vision. If I could someday end up with Leno money? Sure, build a warehouse and have cool old stuff. But I don't like them enough to make room in my life for them.
maschinenbau said:I am fully aware I will never get my money back from the Rice Rod for all these reasons stated above, so that's why I'm dumping so little into it
I have solved that little conundrum...
Pete
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