Body Confidence, Modeling, Influencers and Adult Entertainment

My wife and I have a photograph of us when we were younger that is quite provocative. Not pornographic, but erotic. Suggestive. It's a black and white photo I love. My brother took it. 
 

It embarrassed her. She didn't want her children to see it, or family, or friends. So for almost 30 years we did not display the photo. We kept it out of sight.

She recently has loosened her perspective on this, and decided she is ok showing it to some people. I'm thrilled it can be seen.  But we chose to hang it in a semi-private part of the house. The only people who would see it are people that are close to us. 
 

We made a choice. For 30 years we made a choice that no one would see it, and now we have made the choice to display it to a limited audience. We could have made other choices. I could have had it printed as a wrap on the back of my truck if I wanted to.  Or posted it here.  Or on FaceBook.
 

The point is, WE retained control over what was seen and what was said because WE chose who to show it to. 
 

If we had chosen to make it public and available to everyone, then we would have relinquished our right to control it. We would have given that right to everyone else, and they would be free to comment on it as they see fit. 
 

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

Yes, I'm referring to in-person comments.  And yes, the rules are different in person, because online a poster can typically restrict who is able to see (or comment on) a given image... and anyway, they should recognize that anything posted online leaves their control permanently.

I'm confident that if I yell "Nice car!" that it will be received in the spirit with which it is offered. However, it is of course possible that I may give offense; if so, that's on me.

I'm not confident at all that is true if I yell "Nice ass!"  So I don't do that, even if I may look at the ass in question.

In reply to Duke :

So what you are saying is that you have a moral code that would limit derogatory comments, but not one that would restrict all comments. 
 

I'm good with that. But the only way for a person to completely avoid "nice ass" comments if they are uncomfortable with them is to try to limit showing their ass. 
 

I'd also note... there are WILD fluctuations in this culturally. There are comments that some people yell at each other in the streets which are considered compliments, but would be terrible insults if said by others. So, it's a metric that can't be measured. 

Duke said:

Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos) said:

These kids have grown up never knowing a time when their country was a peace, school shootings, social media, divisive politics, economic collapses, pandemics, etc.

I was born at the beginning of 1965 and except for school shootings and social media, I have never known a time that wasn't like that.

Fair, we're about the same age. I don't think it's false to say that we didn't have the constant exposure that happens today. It was a lot easier to let it wash by you when we were younger: no internet, no mobile phones, etc.

Additionally, items that may have been relegated to a single paragraph in a newspaper now might get national attention on the big news networks on a slow news day.
 

SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

I hear you complimenting the capabilities of today's teens (I agree), as well as recognizing the stresses and pressures they are under (I also agree). But neither of those address the OP's question as I understand it. 
 

I believe the question was "What are our thoughts regarding the moral stance we should consider regarding influencers and body image?"  AKA "What's healthy as a society?"

Teen suicidal rates are at an all-time high. They've increased by 60% in the last decade, and girls attempt it now 3X as often as boys. 
 

I agree with the positive points you've outlined. Our kids are monumentally capable, but they are killing themselves, and I can't accept that as a societal positive. We are not healthy, regardless of how many "feel good participation trophies" we hand out. 

You are right, we are not healthy.  I am seeing a shift in body positivity that, as of yet, hasn't seemed to affect the abysmal suicide rates, but I am hopeful.  I think part of my commenting on the laudable qualities of children today is that I'm already seeing them pull themselves out of the mud and find their own bootstraps.  Not the answer we're looking for, nor is it the best solution, but at least I'm seeing a pretty, shiny light at the end of the tunnel.

I do my best to support body positivity as much as I can, and I don't mean just looking in the mirror and saying "Curtis, you're not fat."

There's so much in the manner of an activity, as opposed to the simple fact of it. "Leer" and "ogle" are different to "glance" and "look."

And underpinning it all, I really think, is the general (or specific, if you're talking about whether one person is ogling or glancing) sense of whether there is basic human respect as well as whatever notice. People are sexy, at least some of the time. Whether someone is being regarded as a person who is sexy or just a sexy object is a big deal, and I think we're at a spot where the general societal ability to extend benefit of the doubt on that point is low.

Which is a shame, because I think we're (slowly) making progress on recognizing humans as all being actual humans and not intrinsically diminished in some way by not being white or male. But the doubling down on everybody else being somehow less by some folks really hamstrings the progress.

I keep thinking that I miss the playful sexiness I find best embodied in rock and roll in its many flavors, but that until we recognize that everybody involved gets a full basic helping of respect (to build or lose on an individual basis), we don't get to have that particular nice thing.

I'm to the point now where I am incredibly cautious about complimenting people, particularly those of the feminine gender.  I do make it a point to preface my comment with the proper posture and tone because I have no idea if the recipient of my comment is someone with a set of life experiences that will make my words a positive encounter, or if the person in question was raped last week and it will trigger pain.  I've had reactions in both directions.

I often find myself commenting on something completely unrelated that has nothing to do with objectification of the person.  Instead of saying "you're so beautiful," I might say something like "OMG, those SHOES are so amazing."

It's a very difficult task for someone like me who wants to promote body positivity but is also keenly aware of how one person's compliment is another person's creepy trigger.

As I raise my kids I have been thinking about all these same things as the OP posted. 

The sex positive concepts along with influencers, some with little clothing, and social media consumptions are difficult to navigate. 

My current, and ever evolving view, is that I need to teach my kids about the online worlds the same as I would about walking outside with or without me. They will have to navigate it and just like I don't send my 5 year old to go shopping alone, I shouldn't let my 9 year old explore the VAST reaches of youtube without being WITH her. 

I even say that to them directly that just like I will be near when they interact with adults at an early age I will be watching the screen with them at an early age and in both cases adults or older children can interact with them in ways they don't understand yet.

1. If someone walks out wearing a sheer shirt and pants and thong underwear. I would probably look a little longer, male or female as it is so out the norm I would have to gage what is happening or about to happen. I explained to one of my kids it is OK to look at everyone around you to remain aware of your situation. And if something is out of the ordinary that it is ok to spend a moment to figure it out and to figure out if it is an intentional distraction from something else. 
2. I think that society is moving towards more acceptance but I don't agree that it is a NEW GENERATION thing anymore than what I heard about the 80s and 90s kids being REVOLUTIONARY!!!!!! I haven't seen anything in current high school or college kids that makes me think they are any more special than generations before me. I have read countless stories of "kids" in high school or college that created the major company or theater play or music career or all new industry. The only difference is in high school I could have probably created my own car company if it only cost $1000 for a device and time to do it. So internet does open work to anyone that can operate a smart phone. So assumptions by many regarding child labor laws are the only thing slowing down the monetization of 6 year olds for online labor.
3. I think at it's core, the online community would be beneficial to all tweens and teens if it were possible to block out the monetization that leads to sexualization of the content. Sexuality would then be more balanced in that environment and the open sharing of thoughts and depression would probably help others get through their low mental and emotional points.
4. My oldest daughter once asked what I was staring at when I looked at a woman breastfeeding in the open with no cover. I was honest in that I had a moment of looking a little too long because my brain couldn't process what I was seeing in the middle of Target. I could hear a baby crying but couldn't see it (it was wrapped up). Plus I was so used to helping her mom stay covered when she breastfed because that is what she wanted. So I was used to seeing it but usually as I was holding a blanket or coat open. The only analogy I could come up with is when someone sees something in the air and thinks for a second, bird?, then not really a bird but a drone. It may feel like a fraction of a second but to others it seems that they have been staring too long into the sky. 

Radio's in car's were supposed to cause chaos and death to ravage the country but we made it. The internet will be the same.

Now we're kinda getting on the topic I had intended. 

This body positive message is running in conflict with the anti-objectivity movement. 

We've got all these women who are empowered to be proud of their bodies, whether they be petite or curvy or thick or flat, but it's also at a time we're hyper sensitive about misconduct. Then, to make matters more complex, this body positivity is trickling down to younger girls. 

Now we have this generation who is being told "don't be ashamed of your body." And so they show it off, but what we don't tell them is that "body confidence doesn't make up for societal judgments" - as in, there is a really thin line between beauty and pride, and something that may haunt you for a long time. 

I've also read some interesting viewpoints on how hypersexuality has impacted LGBT groups. There is a lot of pressure on young Trans people to fit this mold of what they see as sexy or stylish, and if they can't achieve that, they feel like they haven't yet achieved their vision of themselves. Or gay and lesbian folks who feel like they've got to fit this mold of what a gay person "looks" like. 

But Social Media has really changed the game in terms of "what's it all for?" There are a lot of conversations about what is and isn't appropriate for people to say. Talking with young guys - the vast majority of them keep their mouths shut. The ones who don't are called creepers. My friends teenaged son brought up a good point though - "why can gay guys say that a girl is hot on her instagram, but I can't?" 

We're in this situation, probably not unique among generations, where we're expected to keep our thoughts to ourselves, but we know society is still giving preference to certain body types, certain ages, certain "looks". The unwritten approval, if you will, to project ourselves and our bodies as long as they meet a certain standard. 

In reply to pheller :

All of the thumbs up.

I will add that I think part of this issue can be applied to any facet of our lives, not just appearance.  I have a volunteer here at the theater who doesn't get one thing.  He's undiagnosed mildly autistic.  He doesn't understand when he opens his mouth and speaks inflammatory things, people don't take it well.  He can't put the two together.  It's truth to him, and since his autism strips him of empathy, he doesn't understand why people don't like it when he is honest.

There is a disconnect between body positivity, false confidence, true confidence, and pride.

The idea that women receive unsolicited self-proclaimed 'compliments' (or worse) from men only when they're "asking for it" by intentionally exhibiting and displaying themselves, is laughably naive... Unless simply choosing to walk out the front door is their biggest offense.

The problem is that too many many people, apparently here included, still can't actually recognize the difference between a compliment and objectification masquerading as a compliment.

It's only a compliment if the most important part of it is how gets perceived by the recipient and how it ends up making them feel. If you care so little about them as to put your own perception and feelings before theirs, then you're doing it for yourself and not for them, and as such is no longer any type of 'compliment'.

pheller said:

- "why can gay guys say that a girl is hot on her instagram, but I can't?" 

We're in this situation, probably not unique among generations, where we're expected to keep our thoughts to ourselves, but we know society is still giving preference to certain body types, certain ages, certain "looks". The unwritten approval, if you will, to project ourselves and our bodies as long as they meet a certain standard. 

Obviously on the first question, it's because of gender and sexual preference.  Gay men are less likely to be seen as a potential threat.  It is assumed that - because he isn't trying to get in your pants - that his comment is more genuine.

Straight man compliments straight woman - high potential for creepishness
Gay man compliments straight woman - little potential for creepishness
Gay man compliments gay woman - next to zero potential for creepishness
Straight man compliments gay woman - could be harmless, or super threatening and creepy.  It's bad enough for straight women to feel threatened by men, but often times since the perceived threat is coming from her non-preferred gender, it can be incredibly harmful.

I happen to have a lot of first-hand experience with the last example since I tend to be attracted to less-feminine women.  I would rather have the camping, outdoorsy, looks-good-in-jeans-and-a-tshirt type. I don't typically fall for the barbie-doll, wears makeup to take out the trash, girly-girls... which means half of the time I realize I'm attracted to a lesbian. 

In reply to pheller :

It's a doozie.

To your son's point, and I'm guessing I'm not saying anything you don't already know... A gay guy, like a girl, is not trying to get into the recipient's pants. The comment doesn't have the baggage that it would from a straight guy. It becomes fraught. It carries the potential of expectation. "If I 'like' that compliment, is that encouragement toward an unwanted advance?" The commenter now almost implicitly wants something from the recipient. That's a heavy-handed way of putting it, but I think it gets toward the kernel of the matter. (EDIT: molasses-brain, and now I'm almost just repeating Curtis, who even had a chart!)

I've been stewing on social media a lot lately. Ironically, since I quit Facebook a couple of weeks ago... But this exactly why: Not being on social media doesn't stop it affecting our society. My (probably ridiculous) notion at the moment is to restart my blog, so that the few people who want to read what I have on my mind can do so in a format that doesn't look ridiculous if it can't be compressed to a blurb, AND to look into things like Mastodon, which provides the actual core functionality of something like Facebook (not completely, I admit) while NOT rejiggering your feed to show you what's trending or insert ads. So if all you want is that sort of easy contact with folks you otherwise wouldn't talk to much, there you go. The only problem (sigh) is that everyone's already on FB, and it's hard to get that sort of critical mass moved. I'd love to see FB go the way of MySpace and Friendster in favor of something that just provides connection, even if that falls far short of fixing all the problems.

It won't stop people from airbrushing their lives, but without post-boosting or ad revenue, it also won't reward it in the same way. You can share things off of TikTok, YouTube, etc, so it's not avoiding it (and not having to give it up). It is limited to 500 characters per post, but again, you can link to bigger things.

I'm starting to digress pretty badly, but I do think there's a central issue in that our current take on social media monetizes engagement, and the data says engagement is boosted by showing us things that make us angry and insecure. That really makes it hard to have a solid conversation across society. We're not going to all agree, but being able to see the viewpoints in a reasonably civil and even manner will make it much easier for people young and old to arrive at their own conclusions and reach their own compromises.

I think this issue is also primarily US-based.  Americans tend to place odd levels of value on things that don't really need to have value.

I'm thinking about the Black Mirror "nosedive" episode with Bryce Dallas Howard.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

I'm thinking about the Black Mirror "nosedive" episode with Bryce Dallas Howard.

I like this episode, but there is also a more comical version that beat it by about 2.5 years

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

I think this issue is also primarily US-based.  Americans tend to place odd levels of value on things that don't really need to have value.

I'm thinking about the Black Mirror "nosedive" episode with Bryce Dallas Howard.

I'm not so certain, I've seen a number of write-ups/references for a Polish-based (the country, not the makeup) Influencer movie named "Sweat" in the last few days.

This market, these algorithms, are not restricted to the US

I'm lucky enough to be married to a beautiful woman with a very impressive figure.  I've learned a lot about how awful men can be during the years we've been married.  It's currently summer, and hot outside.  She should be able to wear a tanktop or a short dress or something of that nature, right?  Not even revealing, just regular summer clothes.  Well, if she does, she can expect like clockwork to be sexually harassed and stared at if she goes anywhere.  She can't even buy groceries without guys literally stopped what they're doing, turning, and staring at her, and plenty of them like to make "compliments" as well.  My wife has grown to hate showing any part of her body because of the way guys react - and she never wears anything particularly revealing.  Regular ol jeans?  Guys will practically break their necks turning around to stare at her butt.  She's even had guys "accidentally" brush up against her butt several times.  While pregnant, and shopping for groceries.  She's had guys come up to her, very openly staring at her chest while they approach, and start hitting on her and asking her out.  It's ridiculous, and she doesn't like to leave the house without me now.  All she wants is to be left alone.

So when someone says something like "If women didn't want us to look at their cleavage they wouldn't show it. That's a truth they don't want to admit. But we're misogynist creeps if we steal a glance.", it just drives me nuts.  It's a small-minded way of thinking that really shows how a person views women.

tldr; my wife should be able to wear summer clothes on a hot day without creeps constantly hitting on her, and without morons basically saying she deserves it because she dared to wear a tank top.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

Obviously on the first question, it's because of gender and sexual preference.  Gay men are less likely to be seen as a potential threat.  It is assumed that - because he isn't trying to get in your pants - that his comment is more genuine.

Straight man compliments straight woman - high potential for creepishness
Gay man compliments straight woman - little potential for creepishness
Gay man compliments gay woman - next to zero potential for creepishness
Straight man compliments gay woman - could be harmless, or super threatening and creepy.  It's bad enough for straight women to feel threatened by men, but often times since the perceived threat is coming from her non-preferred gender, it can be incredibly harmful.

I happen to have a lot of first-hand experience with the last example since I tend to be attracted to less-feminine women.  I would rather have the camping, outdoorsy, looks-good-in-jeans-and-a-tshirt type. I don't typically fall for the barbie-doll, wears makeup to take out the trash, girly-girls... which means half of the time I realize I'm attracted to a lesbian. 

I think there's a lot of overlap between the guys that say things like "Why can't I compliment a random woman on the street that I've never met" and the guys that say things like "If they don't want us looking, they shouldn't show it."

I guess women should either be 100% fine with being stared at constantly or just wear burkas, in the minds of some of these guys.

In reply to Driven5 :

Hence why I am fairly comfortable yelling "Nice Car!" at a stranger, but would never yell "Nice ass!" at someone I didn't know very very well.

In reply to Hey guys! It’s me! :

The problem is that it's not just one 'perverted old man across the street' that they have to deal with. It's countless more (even when not 'advertising') because far too many men continue to enable each others' bad behavior by making these same tired excuses that try to absolve themselves of any responsibility for it, rather than holding ourselves and each other accountable for our collective bad behavior.

The fact that so many women feel the need to dress a certain way only so that they can avoid such 'compliments', rather than simply feeling free to dress the way that makes them feel their best, should tell you everything you need to know about the subject. Well... That and the fact that so many men are so comfortable with keeping this imbalance as the status-quo, even for the women in their own lives.

infinitenexus said:

I think there's a lot of overlap between the guys that say things like "Why can't I compliment a random woman on the street that I've never met" and the guys that say things like "If they don't want us looking, they shouldn't show it."

I guess women should either be 100% fine with being stared at constantly or just wear burkas, in the minds of some of these guys.

That's just it, though, for as much overlap as their might be in men who lack manners, there are also women out there who DO want compliments from strangers, in fact, they make a living with it.

Now granted, men should be smart enough to understand the context of when those compliments and actions are appropriate, but man is by his nature pretty stupid, especially when it comes to the opposite sex. 

I've heard that's part of the problem with social media, the blurring of lines when it comes to context. You can find plenty of social media accounts where its pretty obvious someone is making money off images of themselves, but then there are also accounts where that line is blurry - perhaps a photographer who's muse is his partner. There have been situations where owners of those accounts were borderline harassed by thirsty men hoping she had a patreon or "private" account - even though the page mentions nothing of the sort. Hence disclaimers like "this is my only account" or "I do not reply to PMs". 

This bleed-over between adult entertainers, modeling, and normal people is what worries me a bit. I've heard of girls who aren't even models getting messaged by creepers, but just because they have a few shots of them in swimwear on otherwise normal social media account. Or, similarly, getting roped into paid marketing (influencer stuff) and then reminded of what types of images drove their page views or whatever. One of the accounts I follow is a woman who used to make money off her instagram (not adult content), and the pressure of trying to drive views had all kinds of negative impacts on her mental and physical health. 

What do you do about it? It's certainly as impossible to expect all men to decent as it is also impossible to tell those whom sell their bodies to take their "advertising" elsewhere. Additionally, we can't expect people to not "try" for some sort of online connection because well there is plenty of that already (Tinder, Match, etc). 

If/when my daughter hits this age, I hope we've improved the amount of control parents can have over what our young people put out there, as well as who can contact them about it. 

In reply to pheller :

It doesn't sound like the core of these problems is body positivity or people wanting to express themselves.

The two biggest problems you seem to be illustrating are shady MF-ers in advertising more than happy to exploit someone regardless of the emotional/social/psychological impact that might have on them; and people using the internet as a buffer to be disrespectful creeps in a way that, if they were to act that way in a bar, would at minimum get them bounced by the bartender.

You're right. 

It's a case where our society needs to advance to match a change in norms that happened quicker than the overall population could (or should) adapt. 

There is nothing wrong with an adult willingly distributing their image for profit. The problem is when people assume that every girl on the internet wants to do the same thing just because she might be fit. 

I guess the question is: should we, as men, feel bad for admiring images of woman who might not be profiting directly from the distribution of their image? There is a lot of "reposting" on social media, and heck, everywhere on the internet, without the permission of those pictured. 

In reply to Driven5 :

Yeah I can agree with that. I have told my wife she doesn't have to wear make up, or dress a certain way for me, or work out for me. 
It is certainly unfair that we have told women they have to look and feel a certain way. Getting my wife to believe that is a whole Nother saga