In reply to slantvaliant (Forum Supporter) :
I am a major fan of the round even though I own nothing that shoots it, that's interesting
In reply to slantvaliant (Forum Supporter) :
I am a major fan of the round even though I own nothing that shoots it, that's interesting
I injured my lower back about 3 weeks ago and still recouperating to get back to normal. In that time I researched and ordered parts for a custom 14.5" 300 Blackout subsonic only upper build with recent sales and sent it off for pin-and-weld along with some other machining work to D. Wilson Manufacturing (which I found had an absolutely stellar reputation, quick turn-around, and reasonable prices.) It's already on way back to me after them receiving it last Wednesday (should be here tomorrow). Wanted 14.5" as 16" PSA upper currently running is right near supersonic speeds... 14.5" will max potential yet keep it safely under supersonic no problem. Also upped to a 1:7 twist barrel versus the 1:8 on the PSA since only will be running 200+ grain subsonic projectiles with that upper. Had to borrow the HUXWRX Muzzle Brake-QD installed on the 16" PSA upper for the 14.5 custom upper since anything HUXWRX seems unobtanium right now/out of stock.
Custom 14.5" Upper as follows:
As measured from bolt face to muzzle device when I hand tight assembled it to check everything before shipping out I got ~16.2" using cleaning rod. All parts were heavily discounted except the Midwest Handguard and Toolcraft BCG, plus had some instore credit from both Primary Arms and PSA. Optics will be running on it are Holosun HS503R reddot on Scalarworks Leap 01 mount and Holosun HM3X magnifier. Already changed the bolt release out on the PSA lower to one that will work with the pocket on the Wilson Combat Billet upper and just waiting on a new buttstock to try out (UTG Pro S1 - has storage for 8 CR123A batteries and it seems to be very highly praised while being almost half the price and tighter fitting than Magpul stocks) along with a TriggerTech Duty 3.5lb Single stage trigger on heavy discount to replace the PSA match trigger (really do like the PSA match trigger, but want something with ZERO movement where housing locks it to the lower frame - the PSA has no locking mechanism and has slight housing movement after reset). When fit checked the Wilson Combat upper receiver before sending everything off, it was nice and tight on the PSA lower with ZERO movement, way better than the PSA upper.
The 16" PSA upper will be used for supers... keeping the 1-6X LPVO on it and already replaced muzzle device with my favorite hybrid flash/brake/compensator - the Precision Armament EFAB. Think only thing I'd like to change on the PSA upper would be a different, longer, fatter/ more rounded 15" handguard from the skinny stock 13.5" one... still looking for the right one.
Decisions. I have two pieces that really cover the same job.
18" Benelli nova 12ga. It's a one trick pony. Simple, reliable.
5.56 pistol. Definitely more versatile, more complicated and possibly less reliable(?)
The 12 would benefit from a shake awake dot, just in case it's dark.
The AR could use the same, and possibly a low power scope. M-lock means attaching a light is easy just in case it's dark.
If I sell one to outfit the other, which would yall choose and why?
Decisions. I have two pieces that really cover the same job.
18" Benelli nova 12ga. It's a one trick pony. Simple, reliable.
5.56 pistol. Definitely more versatile, more complicated and possibly less reliable(?)
The 12 would benefit from a shake awake dot, just in case it's dark.
The AR could use the same, and possibly a low power scope. M-lock means attaching a light is easy just in case it's dark.
If I sell one to outfit the other, which would yall choose and why?
barefootcyborg5000 said:Decisions. I have two pieces that really cover the same job.
18" Benelli nova 12ga. It's a one trick pony. Simple, reliable.
5.56 pistol. Definitely more versatile, more complicated and possibly less reliable(?)
The 12 would benefit from a shake awake dot, just in case it's dark.
The AR could use the same, and possibly a low power scope. M-lock means attaching a light is easy just in case it's dark.
If I sell one to outfit the other, which would yall choose and why?
Personally I don't get AR pistols... AR rifles are way better to shoot with (both from flash/sound and accuracy/precision perspectives) and a 13.7" to 14.5" pin-and-welded barrel with front vertical foregrip will have a fairly nimble handling package with no tax stamp/NFA restrictions unlike an SBR. Pistols can't run vertical foregrips legally.
In reply to barefootcyborg5000 :
I'm going to assume the 'same job' is defense? 12ga vs. 5.56AR for home defense is about as vigorously argued as 9mm vs. .45, or what kind of oil to use in your racecar...
That said, IMHO there is absolutely NOTHING a 12ga shotgun is better at for CQB than an AR in 5.56. The only exception being legality in some areas. The 5.56 holds more ammo, is easier to shoot, provides quicker follow-up shots, reloads easier and quicker, and is more precise. 5.56, even at 'pistol' velocities hits hard, and won't over penetrate most residential structures. About the only thing the shotgun can do better is vaporize hinges with breaching ammo, or punch giant holes with slugs, neither of which are going to be necessary for most users.
Let me put it another way: if you KNEW you were walking into a gunfight, with an unknown number of bad guys, would you grab the 30 round gun that has nearly zero recoil, that you know you can make hits out to 100yds with? Or the 7 round gun that's effective to 15 yards, with rounds that won't penetrate a ballistic vest?
If you have to sell one, I'd sell the shotgun.
It's a 10.5" aero build, so I don't know what's possible with a suppressor and any combination of pinning/welding to avoid SBR stuff. It is braced currently and very accurate for what it is. Only has folding irons currently, which is the real hiccup as it is.
It could double as a range toy, where the Benelli can't. Idk.
Rodan said:In reply to barefootcyborg5000 :
I'm going to assume the 'same job' is defense? 12ga vs. 5.56AR for home defense is about as vigorously argued as 9mm vs. .45, or what kind of oil to use in your racecar...
That said, IMHO there is absolutely NOTHING a 12ga shotgun is better at for CQB than an AR in 5.56. The only exception being legality in some areas. The 5.56 holds more ammo, is easier to shoot, provides quicker follow-up shots, reloads easier and quicker, and is more precise. 5.56, even at 'pistol' velocities hits hard, and won't over penetrate most residential structures. About the only thing the shotgun can do better is vaporize hinges with breaching ammo, or punch giant holes with slugs, neither of which are going to be necessary for most users.
Let me put it another way: if you KNEW you were walking into a gunfight, with an unknown number of bad guys, would you grab the 30 round gun that has nearly zero recoil, that you know you can make hits out to 100yds with? Or the 7 round gun that's effective to 15 yards, with rounds that won't penetrate a ballistic vest?
If you have to sell one, I'd sell the shotgun.
While I'd hope that ballistic vests aren't a concern, I'd throw out the fact that a slug may not penetrate a vest, but it very much will dump all its kinetic energy into a small spot. That is pretty damaging
Well, I think I'll just do the thing since that's kind of what I do. New idea? Great. Full throttle!
Now to decide on a small scope and a dot, either canted 45* or up top, OR, a dot and a magnifier.
And eventually a can.
In reply to Antihero :
True, a slug might take someone out of the fight, even if it didn't penetrate, but are you going to have time to load one?
The only reason I mentioned vests is that their use by bad guys has been increasing over the years. Here in AZ there have been a number of home invasions where the bad guys were armored up (some even with "Police" marked raid gear).
Rodan said:In reply to Antihero :
True, a slug might take someone out of the fight, even if it didn't penetrate, but are you going to have time to load one?
The only reason I mentioned vests is that their use by bad guys has been increasing over the years. Here in AZ there have been a number of home invasions where the bad guys were armored up (some even with "Police" marked raid gear).
Do you mean because it's a pump ? Or a tube mag? There is ways around both I guess, and the KSG holds a bunch of minishells which helps the recoil angle and capacity angle. Brings it down to roughly 44 mag power levels.
I like shotguns for defence but the thing I'm defending against is bear when I grab the shotgun, so it's loaded with brenneke slugs. I'd go AR for anything else over the shotgun
Since I already have a press, I could start loading 5.56 too... find the heaviest HP projectiles I can and load hot. A can would increase pressure and maybe help the velocity out of the short barrel just a bit.
Bear defense is one mission where a shotgun is superior to an AR (in 5.56), and there you can have it pre-loaded with slugs. For most home defense, it's going to be loaded with buckshot, and switching to slugs mid-stream takes time, and a lot of training to execute smoothly under stress. Which is what I was referring to...
barefootcyborg5000 said:Since I already have a press, I could start loading 5.56 too... find the heaviest HP projectiles I can and load hot. A can would increase pressure and maybe help the velocity out of the short barrel just a bit.
Do you have the twist for heavy bullets?
If so, sounds like a plan to me
In reply to Antihero :
1:7. Should be adequate.
WOW Really Paul? said:In reply to Antihero :
AR10 platform in 45 Raptor? You'd make Bob 'MOIST'....lol
You know me so well!
I think I'm decided on a dot with a 3x flip-away magnifier. I don't really see this thing stretching much past 200y with the short barrel. Seems to be about the limit for what I can find ballistics on online.
Got the 12 sold (hopefully) this coming Friday, so I should be making an order soon, with enough left over to buy reloading dies
Rodan said:Bear defense is one mission where a shotgun is superior to an AR (in 5.56), and there you can have it pre-loaded with slugs. For most home defense, it's going to be loaded with buckshot, and switching to slugs mid-stream takes time, and a lot of training to execute smoothly under stress. Which is what I was referring to...
Missed this the first time.
The KSG has 2 tubes so you could actually put slugs in one side and switch between that and buckshot. The KSG-25 would hold 20 each tube of the minis too, the shorter KSG12 would do 12 each tube.
The lower power would also be a better home defence option than full power 12 gauge IMO, we are still talking 44 mag range after all and that's fine.
barefootcyborg5000 said:If I sell one to outfit the other, which would yall choose and why?
Sell one? I'm not familiar with this concept. :D
It's very much dependent on your circumstances. Assuming the job is home defense, my circumstances would have me keeping the 12g.
Consider your home layout, occupants, your skills (and those of anyone else who may use it), your preferences, your location, local laws, etc.
In reply to Antihero :
Sorry, I missed that you were talking KSG. barefootcyborg5000 said he had a Benelli Nova.
The KSG is interesting... but gets pretty heavy loaded up. At least with the bullpup design, all the weight isn't hanging out in front of the receiver...
Rodan said:In reply to Antihero :
Sorry, I missed that you were talking KSG. barefootcyborg5000 said he had a Benelli Nova.
The KSG is interesting... but gets pretty heavy loaded up. At least with the bullpup design, all the weight isn't hanging out in front of the receiver...
I'll probably get one some day, I'm not sure it changes my opinion on shotguns as an only defense gun, but I don't mind my opinions being challenged either. I think it makes a person stronger
Rodan said:In reply to Antihero :
True, a slug might take someone out of the fight, even if it didn't penetrate, but are you going to have time to load one?
The only reason I mentioned vests is that their use by bad guys has been increasing over the years. Here in AZ there have been a number of home invasions where the bad guys were armored up (some even with "Police" marked raid gear).
Are we talking BG's in 3a soft armor or lvl 4 hard plates? The latter you just alter your training with a rifle to a shot pattern of 'center, low, high'.
Soft armor is a lot more common than plates, but it's all out there...
And training is really the answer, but it's just one more factor in the decision matrix that led me to prefer a 5.56 AR over 12ga for any kind of interpersonal conflict resolution.
In reply to barefootcyborg5000 :
Look back in this thread for the AR 15 build my son and I did. Quality parts with the shortest barrel brake combo to keep it a non SBR. Extra $$$ was spent on lightness with out compromising reliability. Achieving this required some reasurch. Topped it off with a RDO and a 3x flip up magnifier. Super light extreemly soft and flat recoil, extremely reliable easy to manage in tight spaces and will stop problems with ease at 200 yards. It really is the best do it all option. My one problem with this is the red dot. For home use I prefer iron sites. There battery life is better. 😁
My other at home problem solver is a Mark 23 but that is something I trained with in the past and I am extremely proficient with and in this use case CC is not a concern. 45ACP with a long site radius and a good hand held stream light is my preferred set up just because of how well I can operate it. I prefer an offensive hand gun for home defense but if you can only have one do it all firearm you really can not beat a properly set up AR15
My next AR build is going to be a totally-not-an-SBR pistol. Maybe throw on a side-folder adapater to keep it compact.
(Is there a color we use to note sarcasm?) Too bad nobody makes a 8.5-10.5" barrel for an AR10.
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