Can we discuss safety?

 Dated seat,  belts Helmets, roll bars, and fire extinguishers?  

Has anybody else used  one of those a few times and needed to replace it because it’s out of date?  

Something perfectly good replaced just because a date tag expired?  

Look at motorcycle riders.  No rollbars, 

No seat belts, no Fire extinguishers 

Yet there they are racing!  

Same with certain classes in Vintage racing, group 1 for example.  No roll cage, roll bar, or even shoulder harnesses.  Is that Formula 1 Maserati 250F  reasonably fast? How about a MGTC ?  No roll cage or even roll bar.  

A Jaguar D type is still faster than a Miata.  But the Miata has to have a roll cage. While the Jaguar doesn’t 

On a jaguar D, probably more concerned about the vehicles safety and protection than the driver. Miata is probably the other way around.

You aren't strapped into a motorcycle, and it is not as likely to crush you if it tumbles. 

My motorcycle helmet gets replaced every 5 years.

A few years ago I replaced the crusty seatbelts in my '68 GTO, and used the morris 3-point conversion in front.  This is a street car.

it is an interesting topic, for sure.

i think there are too many differences between motorcycle and car to make that a valid comparison, so i think it makes sense to limit the comparisons to vintage vs modern racing, and the equipment required in each.

i have replaced out-of-date helmets and belts that had never been through a high-energy situation.   why?   because somewhere along the line, some development engineers did some testing and found that these things do indeed lose some of their performance capacity as they age.   while not as obvious as old gas vs new gas, the degradation is there and it is measurable.

I have read a lot about racing in "the good old days".   30's, 40's, 50's..

A lot of people were killed while racing.  Crashes and burning to death. 

   Every weekend somebody died.    Not to mention the injuries to the people who didn't die.

So yeah, safety. 

My boots, gloves, leathers, spine protector, helmet all get inspected for every event (by the organizers, not just me), the helmet includes a temporal specification. And that's just track days! The couple of races I did were the same.

Do roll bars expire, or do they just get inspected? Having the rules change and require a different bar isn't aging out, it's nominally progress (I say nominally just to recognize that sometimes we get it wrong, but changing the spec is different from saying it expired)

Recognizing that it's either impractical or too much of a hit to the value to put a cage in a D-type I would say is more a rational recognition of the tradeoffs of the specific situation and the likelihood that the driver is going to try harder not to damage the six-figure car than it is a counterargument to more safety equipment where these problems don't exist. Not that value prevents the red mist, but you're never going to mistake Group 1 Vintage for Spec Piñata.

I think the main point frenchyd is getting to is if you have a belt or helmet that has very little exposure or use, but simply times out, is it really unsafe?

I suspect it isn't, but regulations lean very far to the "safe side". 

Having rolled a racing car, I can tell you that current belts, arm restraints and a good roll cage are requirements for competitive racing outside of the autocross for me!

Materials used in safety equipment or any thing else change over time, even with out being subjected to crashes, fires, sunlight, etc.  Metals corrode and the grain structure changes.  Plastics deteriorate in some interesting ways.  Adhesives, coatings, lubricants ... all change.  Sometimes for the better.  Usually not.    

The expiration dates are guesses, with factors of safety and, probably, some business modelling thrown in the mix.  Still, they're probably the best guess of the useful life.

aircooled said:

I think the main point frenchyd is getting to is if you have a belt or helmet that has very little exposure or use, but simply times out, is it really unsafe?

Hard to say from the examples he chose, which were mostly about cars which, like motorcycles, completely lack much of the equipment he's referencing. There seems to be more emphasis on "do we need any of it?" than "does it go off like milk?" though I do see the mention of the topic.

aircooled said:

I suspect it isn't, but regulations lean very far to the "safe side". 

I agree that a helmet the day after its expiry is about the same as it was the day before, but the materials do degrade, and you have to pick a lifespan, as testing the materials isn't really practical, I don't think. We may be in agreement on everything but the conservatism of the dates, so I'm going to knock off there...

In '09 I installed a full cage, Kirkey # 63's (full containment NASCAR style) for driver & passenger, 6 point Schroths, two fire systems and then ran the car 3 HPDE weekends at Sebring and Palm Beach international and a one mile land speed event at Dade/Collier in '10. I'd also bought a new Arai helmet at the time. Then I started a complete frame off bare metal restoration. When harnesses were removed they were plastic bagged & put in a dark storage closet in the house.

So now when the car is reassembled I'll need to replace $1,200.00 harnesses and a $700.00 helmet to go to HPDE events again. Meanwhile if the same car still had the original seats & seat belts without a cage or fire systems it'd be legal to use for HPDE even though the original seatbelts would now be 48 years old. This makes no sense to me.

Cooter said:

You aren't strapped into a motorcycle, and it is not as likely to crush you if it tumbles. 

On the other hand riders do fall off motorcycles sometimes fatally. Maybe alone or run over by other riders. 

aircooled said:

I think the main point frenchyd is getting to is if you have a belt or helmet that has very little exposure or use, but simply times out, is it really unsafe?

I suspect it isn't, but regulations lean very far to the "safe side". 

Yes you are right! A friend had a very expensive helmet custom painted, then got sick a year or so later the brand new unused helmet needed to be replaced.  

So did the unused seatbelts. 

In reply to slantvaliant :

Really?  A totally unused helmet needs replacement based on the date stamp?  Is a new one that much better? 

In reply to NOT A TA :

We are in total agreement.  Why can’t the owner decide when to replace rather then  some date stamp?  

If I roll the car but the belts are still date stamped good the belts still should be be replaced .  But not according to the rules.  

frenchyd said:

Cooter said:

You aren't strapped into a motorcycle, and it is not as likely to crush you if it tumbles. 

On the other hand riders do fall off motorcycles sometimes fatally. Maybe alone or run over by other riders. 

And your point is what? You can get killed on a motorcycle, so safety doesn't matter? The risks of motorcycles are a baseline for what constitutes "safe enough for humans?"

Ransom said:

My boots, gloves, leathers, spine protector, helmet all get inspected for every event (by the organizers, not just me), the helmet includes a temporal specification. And that's just track days! The couple of races I did were the same.

Do roll bars expire, or do they just get inspected? Having the rules change and require a different bar isn't aging out, it's nominally progress (I say nominally just to recognize that sometimes we get it wrong, but changing the spec is different from saying it expired)

Recognizing that it's either impractical or too much of a hit to the value to put a cage in a D-type I would say is more a rational recognition of the tradeoffs of the specific situation and the likelihood that the driver is going to try harder not to damage the six-figure car than it is a counterargument to more safety equipment where these problems don't exist. Not that value prevents the red mist, but you're never going to mistake Group 1 Vintage for Spec Piñata.

You bring up a good argument.  If you own an 8 figure car like a Jaguar D Type  that doesn’t prevent the red mist. In fact with the original data plate a totaled “D” type can return to the track under 6 figures and retain it’s value.  

However a MGTD  can be track ready for a few thousand, I’ve done it.  Same rules apply.  

You do make a good point with regard rollbars/rollcages. Some cars require updates to a rollbar/ cage. If for example the original logbook is lost or destroyed.  I was wrong to make it sound like they “age” out.  Sorry, I should have been more clear. 

AngryCorvair said:

it is an interesting topic, for sure.

i think there are too many differences between motorcycle and car to make that a valid comparison, so i think it makes sense to limit the comparisons to vintage vs modern racing, and the equipment required in each.

i have replaced out-of-date helmets and belts that had never been through a high-energy situation.   why?   because somewhere along the line, some development engineers did some testing and found that these things do indeed lose some of their performance capacity as they age.   while not as obvious as old gas vs new gas, the degradation is there and it is measurable.

I’ll accept the differences between motorcycles and cars, will you accept the fact that seatbelts and helmets age different depending on how they are stored and used? 

In 1968 I was on an aircraft carrier when the safety barrier “ aged out”.  They chopped it up and allowed me to ship 20 feet of it home.  Since then, 50 years I’ve used it instead of chain to install and remove - - - too many to count Jaguar and other extremely heavy engines ever since. The fabric doesn’t scratch or gouge the engine like chain does.  

The knots I’ve tied are way worse than any impact load  yet it’s as soft and pliable as the new stuff they installed. 

OK that’s not proof of anything but shouldn’t the person at risk make the decision rather than some rule that likely includes consideration of reasonable profit for the manufacturing company?  

jharry3 said:

I have read a lot about racing in "the good old days".   30's, 40's, 50's..

A lot of people were killed while racing.  Crashes and burning to death. 

   Every weekend somebody died.    Not to mention the injuries to the people who didn't die.

 

So yeah, safety. 

 

Yes safety!  Until the Mid 60’s seatbelts we’re not even a requirement let alone rollbars or cages.  

Yet racing still is dangerous. People die every year in spite of all the safety equipment.  

I know I’m on the wrong side of this discussion but is there some place where safety is over done?  

Look at Lemon’s and Champcar racing. In spite of novice drivers and less than optimum mechanicals 

They allow stock gas tanks and I haven’t heard of a problem yet to justify mandatory fuel cells.  

frenchyd said:

AngryCorvair said:

it is an interesting topic, for sure.

i think there are too many differences between motorcycle and car to make that a valid comparison, so i think it makes sense to limit the comparisons to vintage vs modern racing, and the equipment required in each.

i have replaced out-of-date helmets and belts that had never been through a high-energy situation.   why?   because somewhere along the line, some development engineers did some testing and found that these things do indeed lose some of their performance capacity as they age.   while not as obvious as old gas vs new gas, the degradation is there and it is measurable.

I’ll accept the differences between motorcycles and cars, will you accept the fact that seatbelts and helmets age different depending on how they are stored and used? 

In 1968 I was on an aircraft carrier when the safety barrier “ aged out”.  They chopped it up and allowed me to ship 20 feet of it home.  Since then, 50 years I’ve used it instead of chain to install and remove - - - too many to count Jaguar and other extremely heavy engines ever since. The fabric doesn’t scratch or gouge the engine like chain does.  

The knots I’ve tied are way worse than any impact load  yet it’s as soft and pliable as the new stuff they installed. 

OK that’s not proof of anything but shouldn’t the person at risk make the decision rather than some rule that likely includes consideration of reasonable profit for the manufacturing company?  

 

Except you're not on track alone.  You're on track with other drivers and safety crews.  These events are put on by organizations that are usually mostly made up of volunteers and the tracks where they are held at require them to meet certain requirements, usually requiring insurance for the event.  The insurance companies help set the safety rules and require the organizations to enforce those rules.

With that said, if you drill your Jag into the guard rail all by yourself and your aged out belts/helmet, etc. cause or contribute to a serious injury, what do you think happens to the insurance rate for the organization?  Well, it goes to zero as the agency will drop them like a hot potato after paying for the damage to the track and any other expenses they are liable for.

So yes, it ages out, usually before they are a major safety issue.  This isn't always about you as the individual, but you as a part of the larger racing group as a whole.  Nomex loses its capabilities the more it is washed.  Belts and other fabrics are damaged with UV radiation and other environmental aspects.

Similar to how vaccines help protect everyone with herd immunity.  If enough people decide to be "individuals" and opt out, then the herd immunity weakens and eventually fails.  So if everyone has current belts, helmets and suits, then the organization is more protected if something terrible happens as they can state they did their due diligence in insuring everyone is running equipment that meets current regulations and is less likely to fail due to age.  This is why your vehicle and gear is inspected and approved prior to going on track.

Don't like it?  Don't play their game, start your own series/org.  Don't be surprised when the track asks for insurance and the insurance agency asks for specific requirements are upheld.

Ovid_and_Flem said:

On a jaguar D, probably more concerned about the vehicles safety and protection than the driver. Miata is probably the other way around.

The red mist attacks everyone and 170+ mph car in the hands of a driver capable of writing an 8 figure check doesn’t mean he can’t afford to write a five or six figure check to repair any damage.  

I was at the Bahama’s vintage race in 1986  and a young guy asked me to teach him how to drive a “stick”.  It was a Ferrari GTB. It looked and was equipped like a factory race car.  

That night I heard him driving around.                     rev crunch, rev crunch crunch, rev rev crunch crunch crunch etc.  it was a week long event  and I think he may have completed 3 laps at various races.  But the mechanics  had the gear box in and out a lot of times.  

Money does not equal skill. Heck even my hero Stirling Moss had a serious accident driving in vintage races  

I bought a new helmet 3 years ago for the few times I expected to be able to autox. My old one had expired, the snell 2015 rated stuff had just hit shelves and with my extra large dome I can rarely find a loaner to borrow at events. Anyway, haven't worn it once. No more motorcycle, two kids under the age of three so no time to go out of town for racing, and I work most weekends. It sits in my basement waiting to expire.

When I had grand plans of turning my S10 into a race truck I wanted harnesses but didn't have the money for "legal" ones so I kept the stock 3 points and ran a couple autox events perfectly legal, even thought the belts were 25 years old and often didn't self retract and the passenger belt wouldn't even "catch" making it completely useless (welded anchor points to the seat frame so I could put a car seat in for the few times I needed to).

Couldn't get past a couple things: Race harnesses need to be 3" strapping, though I've never seen a factory seat belt that wide. Harnesses age out after 2-3 years(?) but functioning 30 year old belts are ok. 

Stefan said:

frenchyd said:

AngryCorvair said:

it is an interesting topic, for sure.

i think there are too many differences between motorcycle and car to make that a valid comparison, so i think it makes sense to limit the comparisons to vintage vs modern racing, and the equipment required in each.

i have replaced out-of-date helmets and belts that had never been through a high-energy situation.   why?   because somewhere along the line, some development engineers did some testing and found that these things do indeed lose some of their performance capacity as they age.   while not as obvious as old gas vs new gas, the degradation is there and it is measurable.

I’ll accept the differences between motorcycles and cars, will you accept the fact that seatbelts and helmets age different depending on how they are stored and used? 

In 1968 I was on an aircraft carrier when the safety barrier “ aged out”.  They chopped it up and allowed me to ship 20 feet of it home.  Since then, 50 years I’ve used it instead of chain to install and remove - - - too many to count Jaguar and other extremely heavy engines ever since. The fabric doesn’t scratch or gouge the engine like chain does.  

The knots I’ve tied are way worse than any impact load  yet it’s as soft and pliable as the new stuff they installed. 

OK that’s not proof of anything but shouldn’t the person at risk make the decision rather than some rule that likely includes consideration of reasonable profit for the manufacturing company?  

 

Except you're not on track alone.  You're on track with other drivers and safety crews.  These events are put on by organizations that are usually mostly made up of volunteers and the tracks where they are held at require them to meet certain requirements, usually requiring insurance for the event.  The insurance companies help set the safety rules and require the organizations to enforce those rules.

With that said, if you drill your Jag into the guard rail all by yourself and your aged out belts/helmet, etc. cause or contribute to a serious injury, what do you think happens to the insurance rate for the organization?  Well, it goes to zero as the agency will drop them like a hot potato after paying for the damage to the track and any other expenses they are liable for.

So yes, it ages out, usually before they are a major safety issue.  This isn't always about you as the individual, but you as a part of the larger racing group as a whole.  Nomex loses its capabilities the more it is washed.  Belts and other fabrics are damaged with UV radiation and other environmental aspects.

Similar to how vaccines help protect everyone with herd immunity.  If enough people decide to be "individuals" and opt out, then the herd immunity weakens and eventually fails.  So if everyone has current belts, helmets and suits, then the organization is more protected if something terrible happens as they can state they did their due diligence in insuring everyone is running equipment that meets current regulations and is less likely to fail due to age.  This is why your vehicle and gear is inspected and approved prior to going on track.

Don't like it?  Don't play their game, start your own series/org.  Don't be surprised when the track asks for insurance and the insurance agency asks for specific requirements are upheld.

You make a clear argument well stated.  In general I’d agree with you.  

Except for all the exceptions!

Fuel cells aren’t required by every group.  Nor are roll cages Roll bars, 

Have you looked carefully at the safety equipment at the Monterey Historics?  A really wide difference between entrants. 

frenchyd said:

Except for all the exceptions!

those five words are exactly why i avoid responding to a lot of your posts.