Career question

I am about to apply to a company that is kind of a competitor, kind of a business partner--but any competition and business partnership is minimal. It would not be taboo to do this, and it would not hurt my career.

I honestly am only applying because
(1): the reviews of the company all say good compensation, good benefits, and good work life balance; and
(2): I have most of the requirements that they're looking for to a T.

Really the only issues I have with my job are that we need more people for my team (I should NOT be the expert of my particular niche), and there is no solid career path there--no one really knows how to get to the next level other than be there for 5 years. Oh, and I don't get paid enough, but I do get paid fairly. If that makes sense.

Here is the thing that I'm having trouble with, and I'm WAY ahead of myself with this as I haven't even hit submit on the application yet: what do I do if I get a good offer? I don't particularly want to leave my current company. I like my team. Is it ever a good situation to use an offer as leverage for a raise? I don't want to set up a bad environment at the current company if they think I'm looking to leave... but at the same time I'm certainly not married to the company. Has anyone ever threatened to leave if they didn't get a raise and have it end up a good thing long term?

I don't think it's a bad thing to evaluate your market value occasionally, and getting an offer from another company can do that.

The way I would look at it is from a different perspective, namely, what's in it for you if you change compared to when you stay. Is there anything else that would convince you to take the other job? Are you happy in your job?

I have had a substantial raise as part of a counter offer and I took it, but ended up leaving the company after a few more months anyway because it proved impossible to fix the underlying issues. That was a fairly unusual situation though as I work in an industry (IT) where most people pretty much have to change jobs to get a raise.

If there is no career path where you are and you want to progress up the career ladder, I'd definitely talk to the other company just to see if that's normal for the industry or not. If it isn't, you can use that information to see if you can build a career ladder for yourself in your current place.

One thing I found helpful is to write up a list of things that would make you stay at your current company, and a list that would make you want to move to the other company if you get an offer from them. If you do get an offer then you can weigh the offer better, and even if you don't you can go back to your current company and have the "hey, I love you guys and have some ideas that are mutual beneficial" conversation.

I don't think the "we need more people for my team" should factor into your decision to leave or not, unless maybe you are the manager of that team. And even then it's a maybe.

You're young, with no children and obviously good at what you do. It seems like your current position isn't as challenging or fulfilling as you'd like it to be.

I say go for it, reach for that brass ring. Otherwise, if you don't, you may keep wondering "what if" and wish you had.

The_Jed wrote: You're young, with no children and obviously good at what you do. It seems like your current position isn't as challenging or fulfilling as you'd like it to be.

Actually, I'm not that great at what I do and it is challenging. I'm just the best person to do it out of the pool of available people for it. We really need a PhD for my position; all I have is a BS and very little experience. I honestly think my company would be better off if I left because it would force them to get an expert.

As for fulfilling, I don't know on that front. I enjoy it, it is a necessary function for the good of a lot of people. But fulfilling? Really not sure. Guess that answers the question. It's quite boring.

I was really on the fence about leaving my last job. I'll skip the long story and go to what an industry vet said to me. Paraphrasing, "company loyalty is not a two way street. You can be loyal to them all day long, and they say it's great, but the company as a whole will have no problem cutting you if they think it helps the company in the short term". Having no advancement path, as you mentioned, and a lack of respect for the total weight you're carrying above your pay grade would have me looking elsewhere.

My two cents, and it's coming from someone that constantly is second guessing moving across the country for a new job because a change seemed smart.

BoxheadTim wrote: The way I would look at it is from a different perspective, namely, what's in it for you if you change compared to when you stay. Is there anything else that would convince you to take the other job? Are you happy in your job?

Yes I'm happy in my current job. Decent company. Decent manager. Wonderful director, who I deal with more than my manager.

What would make me jump? Money and potentially their grad school reimbursement program. Ours is ok but not great. They'd also have to match our vacation. I think they would.

BoxheadTim wrote: If there is no career path where you are and you want to progress up the career ladder, I'd definitely talk to the other company just to see if that's normal for the industry or not. If it isn't, you can use that information to see if you can build a career ladder for yourself in your current place.

It's fairly normal for companies of our age and size in this industry. The company does realize it's a problem at least. The other company I'm applying to has the same issues according to Glassdoor.

BoxheadTim wrote: I *don't* think the "we need more people for my team" should factor into your decision to leave or not, unless maybe you are the manager of that team. And even then it's a maybe.

It is for me because we don't get the work done in the way it should be done. And we do have other improvements we could make, but we need to be a team of 30 to be where we need to be in 2-3 years. We're a team of 5 now. It's how I ended up with my responsibilities--which is good for me and my career, but not for the department and it puts me in a position to fail (and I've told my manager and director this).

One thing I want to make clear: I don't think I'm under compensated now. I get paid around what I should get paid. I just would like more.

You are marketable. If you can get a better offer take it. If your company thinks you are worth paying more, they will. In the end it is your choice. There is nothing wrong with any of the choices in front of you.

That's the long and the short of it.

One note...

If you made more, would you be over paid (for the comparable job)? That could make you a target, and expectations for you to produce could be high.

I keep getting offers from head hunters for 25% more than I make, but I know the market, and work for a good company that pays me fairly. I am hesitant to switch to another company where I might not be a good fit, and if times got tough, I'd be the guy who was over paid AND the new guy. For now, I'm sticking with what I've got. I like the security.

In reply to mtn:

From what I've seen, if you truly want to continue to advance your career, the only way to do that is find a better job every 2-5 years. Sure, most companies do promote from within, but it's generally a haphazard process with no clearly defined "path".

In reply to petegossett:

Good point. (Especially for a younger guy)

petegossett wrote: In reply to mtn: From what I've seen, if you truly want to continue to advance your career, the only way to do that is find a better job every 2-5 years. Sure, most companies *do* promote from within, but it's generally a haphazard process with no clearly defined "path".

This. All day this.

Although I'm currently on the 6th job of my career in just under 10 years since starting, but 3 of those have been out of my control, and just started the new one.

And I've spoken to HR people about this in exit interviews and the prevailing response seems to be, "Yeah, we know, but that's how it is now."

I have been with my current employer nine years, but have a relationship with the owners stretching back fifteen years to when they hired me fresh out of college at a mutual former employer. I am in a similar situation to mtn. I get paid fairly and get along with the owner well. The downside is that we are a small company with a rather flat organization chart. While I will reiterate that I feel I am fairly compensated for what I do and have received some very decent bumps in pay over the years, I am essentially still in the same position. Many of the people I worked with in the past have become "directors" or "vice presidents" of other organizations. While I make decent money and don't necessarily hate what I do, I feel somewhat stuck or left behind. It is not a good feeling.

Not sure what advice to give other than I recommend not getting to a place you feel like I do. Yet, I am still here, so...

In reply to mtn:

It worked out well for me, but it was a bit of blind luck and not really what I was trying to do.

I was at my current company for about 2 years back in 2003 and my g/f got me an interview where she worked. I went and they made me an offer. I gave my notice and my current company offered a 10% increase to stay. After thinking about it, I took the 10% (yes, my g/f was PISSED). Part of it was the money, part of it was I just didn't feel like I was ready to leave. 14 years later, I'm still here and the company I would have went to changed ownership and has essentially decimated the MEP engineering dept. Some of that was luck, but I also knew that company had a history of hiring for a work load and then quickly cutting if the work load decreased. My company tends not to do that (although we are often over-loaded with projects).

That said, I am also pretty much as high as I can get, position-wise. But at nearly 47, I don't really have any ambition to advance. Money-wise, we've gotten raises nearly every year since I started.

Don't threaten ANYTHING. That creates an adversarial situation.

This is business, you sit down calmly and tell the owner of the lumber yard that others are willing to pay more for your wood than he does.

Print out Craigslist ads to show what the market is for your skillset. Offer these up as evidence that you are under paid.

It's just business, threats are what bullies use in elementary school.

Make a commitment to yourself to find/try a better situation.

Beware though, I could not get satisfaction from my employer and moved on for a $8.50 raise (yes i was way under paid), however the equipment I am given to run is junk, keeps breaking and is unsafe. I sure hope the owner keeps his word to bring the equipment up to par.

bentwrench wrote: Don't threaten ANYTHING. That creates an adversarial situation. This is business, you sit down calmly and tell the owner of the lumber yard that others are willing to pay more for your wood than he does. Print out Craigslist ads to show what the market is for your skillset. Offer these up as evidence that you are under paid. It's just business, threats are what bullies use in elementary school.

Sorry, I didn't mean "threaten". In my hypothetical situation (I haven't even submitted the application yet, so this is all wildly hypothetical) I would get an offer, and I'd go into a meeting with my manager and tell him I have an offer from another company. I'd not be asking for a raise or giving notice, but letting them know and telling them that I have to make a decision in 2 days.

First of all, I'd want to discuss it with him and my director--I consider my director a friend and manager more than just a friendly acquaintance, and I value both of their opinions as I legitimately know they wouldn't steer me wrong and neither one of them are all that loyal to the company. Second of all, I want to put the ball in their court. If they can offer me something, great, maybe I'll take it. If not, then it won't work.

My other one little issue I have slightly holding me back is that I was at my first company for 2.7 years, and this one at this point for 2.2 years. I don't want to be seen as a job hopper, but at the same time "need" to increase my income. And by "need", I mean that I really want to be able to afford to save 25% of my and my wife's income, and afford a $300 a month car payment. We're not there yet.

Also, craigslist postings for this type of job and company don't exist.

petegossett wrote: In reply to mtn: From what I've seen, if you truly want to continue to advance your career, the only way to do that is find a better job every 2-5 years. Sure, most companies *do* promote from within, but it's generally a haphazard process with no clearly defined "path".

Agreed and worked well for me as I went from middle management of Sprint to ATT to Nextel.

The most important point is your starting salary!
In the corp world, your starting salary will then be the basis of all your continued pay increases.

I came into Sprint too low on the pay scale. I actually missed promotions because the allowed pay percentage bump will still keep me below the pay range of the new position.

I was recruited away to ATT by a former Sprint co-worker and that moved resulted in a $20k bump in pay to do the same job.

4 years later I was hired away by Nextel (at the very top of the pay scale for the job I had.) Eventually, I literally had people over me who made less than I did.

To make the whole story full circle, Nextel then merged with Sprint and I found myself regrettably back with a company I had left 10 years earlier. However, I could have never seen the salary increases that I did if I had stayed with Sprint the entire time.

In that 10 years I went from $40k-ish to just under 100k.
Looking back, having started at $40k, those 10 years would have likely not even gotten me to over $60k and that includes any promotions I would have maybe seen.

Advice: Make no enemies in your industry.
A coworker from Sprint was my gateway to ATT.
A coworker at ATT was my gateway to Nextel.
A former boss of Sprint, the boss I quit on (and a lot a politics) became my career cock-blocker once I found myself working for Sprint again.
Oh well, I had a good 14 year run in that industry and industry consolidation really became my demise.

Definitely hearing everyone that says that jumping companies is the best way to get a salary increase. When I went from my first company to my current one, I got a bump of nearly $20k. After you take in cost of living increases, it was more like $10k, but still…

I'll keep folks posted. At work now, but I'll be submitting the application tonight.

My last job was pretty low starting salary, especially with limited room for professional growth. In my field of GeoSpatial, we don't get paid much, so starting low isn't a great start.

When I was offered my current position with a 39% pay increase, I asked my supervisor (my boss's boss) at the old job if there was anything he could do, because I really like the people I worked with, enjoyed the challenge of the job, and would've been happy there with a competitive salary (maybe, because it had pretty weak vacation benefits).

He told me straight up "the only way you'll get that type of pay within this department is take your boss's job." So I would've had to have gone from "Tech 1" to "Manager" in a single jump after 2 years, and my supervisor was pretty honest that he didn't think I was ready to be a manager yet.

Now, I know they added a Manager position (5 techs reporting to 2 managers reporting to 1 supervisor), but I suspect that even the new Manager isn't making what I make.

Moral of the story: if you can get better pay with less stress, it's always worth exploring those avenues. Ask to meet your future coworkers, ask to get lunch with your future supervisor. I've learned that there are definitely ways to find out if you'll be a good fit, and not only that, but sometimes those meet and greets can help result in higher starting salary as well.

re: negotiation leverage

Yes, getting another offer can be leverage, but you need to be very careful. In my opinion it is best used as your internal leverage for 'best option if negotiation fails'. For example, if negotiation fails, your best option is to take the other job getting what you want, but their best option becomes to hire or promote someone (and likely end up paying MORE than they are currently paying you). Obviously that is easier for you, especially if you already have an offer, and that gives you leverage.

However, think of yourself in the manager's situation. An employee comes to you and says "I got another job offer for x". You are probably pretty mad, and you will never forget they did that. The common response is "Great - take it."

On the other hand if an employee comes to you and says "I know the cost of replacing any employee is large in both time and money, and I don't want to move, but I do need to be realistic and fair with myself. I know I can get x if I switch jobs, and I know for you to hire or promote someone for this role, the market would likely demand that you provide x anyway. Can you work with me to develop x here? That would meet my needs and should save you time and money as well." It's hard to logically argue with that, plus, the employee is doing the employer a favor in this case.

I think the job hopping is really common right now because both managers and employees struggle to negotiate effectively, and the more interconnected the world gets the more offers good employees get from other companies.

I was pondering this at work yesterday and I remember you mentioning previously that there is around $16,000 (IIRC) left over in a 529 plan that you can access.

Could you further your education and become the expert your company needs? Would that rectify the career path issue?

The_Jed wrote: I was pondering this at work yesterday and I remember you mentioning previously that there is around $16,000 (IIRC) left over in a 529 plan that you can access. Could you further your education and become the expert your company needs? Would that rectify the career path issue?

Still deciding what I want to do with that. Or when I'm going to do something with it. The answer to your question is yes, but is not a simple yes.

Suffice to say, I'll be going to graduate school at some point in the next 5 years, but my short-term career plans won't be much influenced by that decision, unless I get an offer (but I need an interview first) from the job I was referencing in the first post, because they have wonderful tuition reimbursement plans.

mtn wrote: Has anyone ever threatened to leave if they didn't get a raise and have it end up a good thing long term?

Yes!

As others have mentioned, to achieve salary growth, you typically need to change jobs, or legitimately show that you could. I don't like the term "threaten" as you used, and as someone said above, but you need to know your worth, and market yourself to advance.

I was at a company that I was relatively happy with, but there was another one closer to home with an opening, and offering a substantial pay raise. I applied and interviewed, and was given an offer. I then sat down with my boss and explained the situation, that it would be good for my family, better money, but that I like the company and wanted to give them an opportunity to keep me. They ended up raising my salary to match the offer, and it was far more than I ever would have expected through normal annual review/raises. We basically had a gentleman's agreement that if he went to bat for me and got a raise, I wouldn't be out job shopping threatening to leave again 6 months later... it wasn't anything contractual, but it worked well.

You are in a great place of power; at least in perception, which is 90% of it anyway.

You don't need or want to leave, so if you don't get the salary or position you want with the new company, its not a big deal.

One of the best jobs I was ever offered was because I didn't need a job. I sauntered in to Hollywood Hot Rods in Burbank one day and told Troy that he needed me, he just didn't know it yet. He asked for my portfolio and I said "I drove part of it here today."

I would submit as normal, but be confident in your choices. Under accomplishments, don't say "led team of developers in project management," say "personally spearheaded an ambitious campaign of 12 people to successfully develop profit increases of X%" Play it up. Ask for a gazillion dollars.

You might just get it.