So we split the difference and say I’d love it in 5 years. Not going to happen at current job. And if in 5 years I’m making 50 but can see 70 in the future I’d consider that a pretty sound improvement. Right now the biggest problem is lack of future. And after 10 years slinging parts I’m thinking that another 10 would have me pretty upset about my situation.
So far the discussion is making me think so I’ll chalk it up as productive.
white_fly said:If you don't know what job you want, maybe you could answer what lifestyle you want and work backwards? I have a great job, but my work is 100% travel and that changes the sort of lifestyle I end up with.
I would also say don't be afraid of trying things. Taking a job is not the same as committing to that job forever. If you're not headed towards where you want to be in your current job, send out some resumes and see if there's a better option out there even before you go to school. Also, there's a time and place for school and certifications, but try to talk to people who are already where you want to end up about whether they're necessary. Some welders depend on their certs, but others are totally successful after teaching themselves.
From where I sit, plumbing seems like a great option. Even if you own the business, you can make sure you have someone around to keep you accountable. I would imagine that would give you easy access to a shop which would be a great place to learn to weld or work on whatever you wanted to after hours.
I will say that I think Frenchy is straight up wrong about physical trades being inherently unsustainable for the body. There are managers/supervisors/superintendents in virtually all trades, as well as opportunities to teach and start your own business. I'm in an extremely physical line of work and I'm in much better shape than my younger brother who has a desk job.
I’ll admit I could be wrong about repetitive hard physical work,
So help me out please. Go visit a few job sites, count the people and tell me how many of them are about 60 or older and how many are younger than that? Don’t count management or supervisors.
62 is the earliest you can retire and collect social security and 70 you get maximum benefits.
So a percentage of the workers should be approaching retirement shouldn’t they?
In reply to frenchyd :
We’re not here to argue or prove any points.
barefootskater said:Right now the biggest problem is lack of future.
THAT’S your core issue.
And related to it is the high likelihood that parts sales will become more and more automated over the next 10 years, and your job future will grow dimmer. (It will be a dark day when mechanics log onto Amazon directly from their smartphones and have parts delivered for what they are working on by a drone within an hour)
You need a growth industry. That’s why I suggest the trades. It’s necessary, can’t be out-sourced or sent overseas, has rapidly increasing requirements and regulations, and has a rapidly diminishing workforce. It also takes minimal investment to get started.
Thats the industry I know. There are others.
In reply to Ian F :
Yep. No time. No people. No funds. So how is that design coming along? Ha ha....
SVreX said:barefootskater said:Right now the biggest problem is lack of future.
THAT’S your core issue.
And related to it is the high likelihood that parts sales will become more and more automated over the next 10 years, and your job future will grow dimmer. (It will be a dark day when mechanics log onto Amazon directly from their smartphones and have parts delivered for what they are working on by a drone within an hour)
You need a growth industry. That’s why I suggest the trades. It’s necessary, can’t be out-sourced or sent overseas, has rapidly increasing requirements and regulations, and has a rapidly diminishing workforce. It also takes minimal investment to get started.
Thats the industry I know. There are others.
This. 100% this.
If I knew then, what I know now. First thing out of high school I would have apprenticed in a trade. With my work ethic a few years from 40, I'd likely be self-employed with at least a number of employees underneath me.......making a very good money and probably not be far off (if not already) to the point I could just run the business and not even get my hands dirty.........or at least not nearly as often.
Hindsight is always 20/20. If I could go back to when I started working knowing what I know now, I'd be retired.
Apexcarver said:Desk time and long commute led to back injury for me. I have to go to a gym to stay in shape. Don't think a desk job means good health. It's just a different set of problems that need to be managed.
white_fly said:If you don't know what job you want, maybe you could answer what lifestyle you want and work backwards? I have a great job, but my work is 100% travel and that changes the sort of lifestyle I end up with.
These are some good quotes.
ApexCarver is dead on. I work a chair. During the winter months, when I'm less active, spend less time on my mountain bike, I feel it. Likewise, when I've worked construction jobs, I came home every night completely beat, sore, back aching, but I felt damn good on the weekends. Looked good too.
What white_fly said is important as well. Some people hate travel. I know some guys who are resentful of working jobs where they missed their kids growing up. I know some guys who are resentful of never having made good money, too.
My father made a good impression on me on the value of college as a young person - A Doctor can retire at 40 with a wife, house, kids, etc with more money than he knows what to do with and become a carpenter. It's far harder for a carpenter to become a Doctor at 40 with a wife, house and kids. It's not impossible, but it's harder.
So I decided to leave my path in the trades, one that was very wishy-washy (I had no idea if I wanted to become a mechanic, photographer, tradesperson, whatever) and just get a Bachelors Degree. When your young and single and it's acceptable to live with parents, it's pretty easy to get through school quickly and have fun doing it.
The thought of going back to school as a 34 year old with a wife and kid is daunting. Every person we know with a Master's Degree is strapped for cash, at least those who paid for it themselves (ie not through work reimbursement). The ROI of an advanced degree just doesn't seem worth it to pay out of your own pocket. The only people who aren't paying debt for years after their self-paid graduate degrees are those in health fields or computer science/programming. I have a buddy who got a two-year mechanical technology degree right out of highschool, got into the wind-turbine-repair business, travelled the world, saved up enough money to buy a cheap apartment, and paid for his Mechanical Engineering degree outright. No debt. If you're going to do a trade right of highschool that's the way to do it.
...but for those of us who are older, with families and people who rely on us to support them? That's more tricky. You need a skill that's specialized enough to pay the bills even at entry, but cheap enough to get those skills with minor expenses. You need a skill where employers track you down while you in trade school and say "come work for us we'll pay you $25/hr with a flexible schedule while you finish your certification. Then $35 when you're done."
Go to your local community college, vo-tech or technical school and ask around which programs have employers doing that. Do those programs.
pheller said:
Go to your local community college, vo-tech or technical school and ask around which programs have employers doing that. Do those programs.
Sound advice. Thank you. And thanks everyone else. I have some great things bouncing around my head and some great questions I still need to find my answers for.
A trade seems the best thing for me personally and for my position (family to support, less youth than I used to have) and I know a great way to earn fair money in one trade while training for another. Life seems to think I should stick out the year and try to pay off the car (which I freaking love, nothing like driving something else for a few days to remind you why you like something). I have some money for education stocked away, and if I can get out of debt I'll have much more freedom to explore and jump around..
Anyway, THANKS GRM COMMUNITY! Y'all are good folks. I'll report back when I implement this forming plan.
z31maniac said:SVreX said:barefootskater said:Right now the biggest problem is lack of future.
THAT’S your core issue.
And related to it is the high likelihood that parts sales will become more and more automated over the next 10 years, and your job future will grow dimmer. (It will be a dark day when mechanics log onto Amazon directly from their smartphones and have parts delivered for what they are working on by a drone within an hour)
You need a growth industry. That’s why I suggest the trades. It’s necessary, can’t be out-sourced or sent overseas, has rapidly increasing requirements and regulations, and has a rapidly diminishing workforce. It also takes minimal investment to get started.
Thats the industry I know. There are others.
This. 100% this.
If I knew then, what I know now. First thing out of high school I would have apprenticed in a trade. With my work ethic a few years from 40, I'd likely be self-employed with at least a number of employees underneath me.......making a very good money and probably not be far off (if not already) to the point I could just run the business and not even get my hands dirty.........or at least not nearly as often.
Right there with you. Definitely should have become a [plumber, electrician, etc.]. Now I'm making too much money to go elsewhere, in a living situation that I'm very comfortable but couldn't take less money if I wanted to, etc. Golden handcuffs are real.
Hell, I've got a college degree and a good job at a great company and am still trying to figure out what I want to do when I grow up--and it is making me consider the Actuarial exams, going for an MBA, or CFA.... But all of that will cost time and money, and some of it will likely require a drop in salary for a while, and I really cannot make the math work out to where it is beneficial in the long run.
pheller said:Apexcarver said:Desk time and long commute led to back injury for me. I have to go to a gym to stay in shape. Don't think a desk job means good health. It's just a different set of problems that need to be managed.
ApexCarver is dead on. I work a chair. During the winter months, when I'm less active, spend less time on my mountain bike, I feel it. Likewise, when I've worked construction jobs, I came home every night completely beat, sore, back aching, but I felt damn good on the weekends. Looked good too.
There are several sides to this.
I've worked construction before. It kept me in mediocre shape at best, but certainly better than working at a desk job and doing nothing. When I left work I rarely had motivation to go to the gym.
I have an office job now. Again, if I did nothing at all I would be in worse shape. But I like to get out of the office during lunch so I go do crossfit or lifting at the gym and I'm in far far better shape than I ever was just from doing construction.
If you are 30 now plan on working till you are 70 and living to 90 ,
And many jobs will just not be done by humans in 20 years , so have a back up plan as far as a second career ,
Do not assume anything as far as retirement , the smart guys years ago saved planning on getting ten percent interest when they retired , now it's 1-2 percent ,
Social Security might still be around in 40 years or they can move the bar and make it 75-80 years old to get it..,
How many people bought Beanie babies as an investment ?
But then do not always chase the almighty $$$$ , as least try and find a job you are happy to go to every morning......for 20 years !
I skipped to the end. It's probably been said, but what the heck:
Re "a 4 year degree... turns into an 8 year headache": Yup. I was in school long enough to be a doctor and came out with a BS in EE. It worked and built upon my avionics background. The pay was a nice bump but now I find I'm less in demand and I have to either wait years for a certain gig to pop up, or drop everything and move now if one does. I guess I can always go back, but still... I was making almost as much, and I didn't have any college debt before my degree.
My brother was hopping freight trains some years back. Until about 2013 maybe? Dog, banjo, cardboard signs... He got bored and moved to Seattle where he kicked around menial jobs for a bit.
Fast forward to 2-years ago he signed up as a trainee with the Seattle Electricians Union. He was able to skip the howevermanythousand hours of "training" he needed by taking a few electrical classes at ye olde community college. Same with his apprenticeship (I think he spent a year as an apprentice, but skipped most of it with a few more classes). He moved up to "journeyman" sometime last year in low voltage something or other (data/comm lines). Our salaries are more comparable than my ego is comfortable with. He's also very high in demand and can basically choose what jobs/salary he wants.
My point: Trades. 1% hassle, 100% the income.
Ninja edit:
Now that I think about it. Since my last move, I do believe he makes more than me. By a good margin...
The ship has been jumped. New things Jan 1. More when I'm not at work.
So. Had the talk this morning with my boss. I told him he'd gotten three more years out of me than we initially bargained for. No hard feelings, no bargaining or making offers. I'll finish out December as a parts guy.
Starting in January I'll be an apprentice plumber full time. It's going to be a pretty significant pay hit in the short term but we have very little debt, very low cost of living, and some savings if things get crazy. Hopefully in five years I'll be back where I am income wise and running my own truck. Utah says I need 8000 hours on the job to take the test for my license but all in good time.
Wish me luck.
My point: Trades. 1% hassle, 100% the income.
Just to make a point. In my case the trades would be 1% But there are few tradesmen who make what I make at the age of 40. I'm sure there are some. But I got an office job and work 8 hours a day. I'm no carpenter freezing his ass off in 5 degree Minnesota December.
In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :
We have welders making $20-$22 an hour always telling us they can make double working other spots and outside. Then why are you here?
Inside, mainly 40-50 hours a week, production welding in a chair, lower stress levels.
In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :
There will always be somebody who makes more, and I don't know what you make, but locally tradesman are in such high demand companies are giving mid year increases just in order to keep people. And it's only going to get worse, or better depending which side you're on.
For my trade 6 figures has been a reality for some time
In reply to barefootskater :
Good luck. My recommendations based on the trades I work with every day:
Show up on time. "On time" actually means at least 15 min early.
Show up when you say you will.
Don't question too much, but also don't be afraid to ask "Why?"
Show up on time.
Ian F said:In reply to barefootskater :
Good luck. My recommendations based on the trades I work with every day:
Show up on time. "On time" actually means at least 15 min early.
Show up when you say you will.
Don't question too much, but also don't be afraid to ask "Why?"
Show up on time.
"If you're early, you're on time.
If you're on time, you're late.
If you're late, you're berkeleying fired."
Ian F said:In reply to barefootskater :
Good luck. My recommendations based on the trades I work with every day:
Show up on time. "On time" actually means at least 15 min early.
Show up when you say you will.
Don't question too much, but also don't be afraid to ask "Why?"
Show up on time.
I keep joking with a friend that we should make a contracting business called "We show up" or "We'll answer the phone" or "We'll call you back"
It seems that is the level of service most people struggle to provide. Its astonishing.
In reply to ProDarwin :
After 25 years in sales a big complaint is salespeople not answering the phone so I use that and tell customers I answer my phone. You'd be surprised the reaction I get.
Datsun310Guy said:In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :
We have welders making $20-$22 an hour always telling us they can make double working other spots and outside. Then why are you here?
Inside, mainly 40-50 hours a week, production welding in a chair, lower stress levels.
yes.. On our production floor we pay less than the amazon facility down the street. Everyone gets entranced by their peak season bonuses and advertised hourly rate ($17/hr plus benefits plus stock).. They leave and come back, because we pay just below that but have a 8 hour no stress job working in a clean environment....
Fueled by Caffeine said:My point: Trades. 1% hassle, 100% the income.
Just to make a point. In my case the trades would be 1% But there are few tradesmen who make what I make at the age of 40. I'm sure there are some. But I got an office job and work 8 hours a day. I'm no carpenter freezing his ass off in 5 degree Minnesota December.
How much loan debt have you had again to get those higher wages? Trades tend to make more, earlier. And have less total debt. IF those higher earnings in your 20s and 30s are invested wisely, you end up with a very healthy nest egg that's mostly interest rather than trying to balance loan debt with constantly chasing a higher number on your W2.
I'd bet from a net worth perspective, many people could end up in the same place @ age 45 or 50 with a good paying trades job as they would with a Masters and tens or hundreds of thousands in student debt. High salaries are great, but only if they actually contribute to growing your net worth.
Ian F said:In reply to barefootskater :
Good luck. My recommendations based on the trades I work with every day:
Show up on time. "On time" actually means at least 15 min early.
Show up when you say you will.
Don't question too much, but also don't be afraid to ask "Why?"
Show up on time.
I would like to tack on to this, remember you arent just plumbing, you are working in customer service. So look sharp, be polite and professional. I have a relative that owns a small construction company, maybe a half dozen employees. They can all build stuff, but some arent willing to show up reliably, and almost none have the appearance and demeanor that would make them suitable to have a one on one talk with a customer. Do these things and you will be a super star.
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