College money. Holy carp.

SVreX said:

In reply to pheller :

For the record, EVERYONE is threatened in construction. It’s dangerous. 

My older daughter has been on construction sites for over 20 years.  Yes, she got cat-calls, and stares.  She also learned how to handle it.

When I mean threatened, I mean the ability to speak ones mind, ask critical questions ("uh should that be like that"?) and being a woman alone on a job site with man who has made cat calls at her in the past. 

You're essentially proving my point - the trades, some trades (or other male dominated industries), in some instances, can be a toxic environment for young people. It's very difficult to tell a young person "you should join a trade" and then tell them "you should just ignore those guys making cat-calls and saying sexist things to you" when that young woman starts eyeing college as an alternative. I firmly believe that yes, some people manage to get in with a group of professionals and largely avoid those bad environments. The bad environments do exists, and when some young people get into this situations, it immediately turns them off to that field. 

I worked with a family that installed accessibility equipment. We installed lifts, elevators, decks, concrete, etc. It was a great environment, ran and staffed by people who were flexible, respectful, and caring of their employees. 

That was after a few years of working on two terrible, condescending, insulting, and unsafe residential construction job sites, an two auto shops where everybody seemed to hate their lives except the dude who had an $80k day job in IT working for the state. He loved being a mechanic on the weekends. 

By the time I was working doing in-home accessibility, I finally realized that "man, if young people worked for this family, more people would go into the trades." All those other experiences had already turned me off to them.

When I was 18-23, I didn't understand "how to identify good work environments" or "how to find a good apprenticeship" because I just needed money for college, because college was the only thing on my mind.

I mean, maybe we, as "older generations of workers" need to be better tutors and leaders to young people in the workplace. Maybe thats how you get more young people in the trades. 

SVreX said:

In reply to pheller :

I think your issue with construction has nothing to do with women or minorities, but your own personal issues with being perceived as “soft”. 

There are not many subtleties in construction. You gotta be able to dish it out, AND take it. 

40 years in construction. I ALWAYS looked forward to it when women showed up to work.   They did better work. They had to.

Some of the most successful people I know are those who learn to work in environments that are not typically “friendly”, like women in construction. Or auto mechanics. 

A woman owned plumbing business would have a hard time NOT succeeding in most states today.

21 years in concrete here. Ive worked on E36 M3 crews that were rough and crews that were not.

Some people will do whatever they can get away with, the idea is to not be passive agressive and dont let them get away with it. Direct confrontation stops 99.9 percent of problems.

Duke said:

Antihero said:

Trades are a great option, an amazing amount of people get degrees and cant get any sort of job, where in the trades you can pretty much walk into most construction jobs for double minimum wage with zero experience, tools or skills. Then you get paid to learn a skill that you can take anywhere and make a decent living.

My nephew is not quite 30, and makes a good living as an electrician.  He has a house, and some toys, but he is pretty smart with his money.  The down side of this:  he also has chronic, serious back pain.  Another 25 years of working is not going to make that any better.  Most of the 45-50 year old tradespeople I know look like they're at least 5 years older.

I am not anti-trade.  Although I am a desk jockey, I work in the construction industry.  I agree college is not a requirement, or even a good idea for everybody.  But there is something to be said for working inside with your brain instead of outside with your brain and your brawn (or lack thereof).

And you can get the a different set of ailments sitting at a desk with low activity too, some of the people i know in the worst medical shape have been desk jockeys their whole working career. its not like office jobs are immune to this we all age and work takes a toll.

Personally ive done concrete for 21 years now, im 35 now. My shoulder hurts a little as do my knees but 95% of that came from sports over the years.

Plus like it was said earlier in the post...you can always go into an office job later

Sorry. I should be done with my off-topic stuff now. 

College is pricey. I've pretty much decided I will only pay for my daughter to pursue something that I deem as employable, and even then I'll likely require she attends two years of community college.

In reply to mtn :

The average age of a construction worker is somewhere in the 50s in my area. Maybe 1% of those guys are "physically broken" and even then thats pushing it depending on what you mean by broken.

In reply to Antihero :

At my plant in CT average age was 58ish...  $25-30/hr and working inside + great benefits and OT..  It sure is tempting sometimes to day dream if I had done that instead.. 

Antihero said:

In reply to mtn :

The average age of a construction worker is somewhere in the 50s in my area. Maybe 1% of those guys are "physically broken" and even then thats pushing it depending on what you mean by broken.

Hey, I'm just reporting what I see. But I'm very white collar and most of the folks I deal with are white collar. I just see a lot of folks with bad backs. 

Ironically, I do believe that desk jobs are worse for your overall health--which is why I try to stand as much as I can and work out a few times a week on top of my normal activities. I also think that actually doing something physical is much more rewarding, at least at the time.

STM317 said:

 

You basically just described any male dominated career. It's not just the trades, it's the military, or law enforcement, or fire fighting, or working as a mechanic, or driving a truck, or a ton of other things. Women/minorities can and do thrive in those environments, but they can always "dish it as well as they take it". First of all, the men in those roles need to change, and that's occurring (all be it slower than preferred) but secondly quit selling these groups short, or thinking of them as soft and unable to handle themselves in a situation where they're outnumbered. If we want people to be equal, then we have to stop thinking of them as unable to do things just because of physical traits that they can't control.

 

I have an acquaintance who owns a decent sized local plumbing company. He'd give about anything to have female plumbers working for him. He says that they tend to put many customers more at ease than male plumbers.

I strongly disagree with the characterization that the military isn't women friendly.  I've been in 18+ years and haven't seen a single bit of bias.  The amount of sexual harassment training we go through is immense.  Culture has definitely shifted and for the better.

In reply to pheller :

Though you have chased a rabbit (and I followed), I’d like to try to tie it together in context. 

Telling women they should pursue college so they don’t have to put up with sexism in the workplace is JUST as sexist as putting them in the environment, and completely ignorant of the sexism that exists in white collar jobs. 

Technology sector, anyone??

Sexism exists. It has nothing to do with whether college is worthwhile, or whether the trades are a good choice. 

The reason I would like my daughters to realistically consider a trades job is because the likelihood of them being able to earn 6 figures is VERY high. 

If I told them, “Honey, I’m worried about you. You’re too dainty to handle those rude tough guys” is an insult.  My girls can handle it, if they choose to.

OR, they could choose a job at half the salary and start 4 years late with $150,000 in debt. 

Which is worse?  I think that is a terrible message, and it’s not one I intend to teach my daughters. 

In reply to pheller :

I was 15 when I started on construction sites. 1976. 

The environment was MUCH worse. 

docwyte said:

STM317 said:

 

You basically just described any male dominated career. It's not just the trades, it's the military, or law enforcement, or fire fighting, or working as a mechanic, or driving a truck, or a ton of other things. Women/minorities can and do thrive in those environments, but they can always "dish it as well as they take it". First of all, the men in those roles need to change, and that's occurring (all be it slower than preferred) but secondly quit selling these groups short, or thinking of them as soft and unable to handle themselves in a situation where they're outnumbered. If we want people to be equal, then we have to stop thinking of them as unable to do things just because of physical traits that they can't control.

 

I have an acquaintance who owns a decent sized local plumbing company. He'd give about anything to have female plumbers working for him. He says that they tend to put many customers more at ease than male plumbers.

I strongly disagree with the characterization that the military isn't women friendly.  I've been in 18+ years and haven't seen a single bit of bias.  The amount of sexual harassment training we go through is immense.  Culture has definitely shifted and for the better.

That's wasn't my goal at all. MrsSTM is an Army vet, so I'm familiar with it, even though I didn't experience any of it first hand. My point was that outsiders think of it as a "man's job", or a "boy's club" even if it's not. In actuality, being a woman in one of those fields can be a tremendous advantage these days. And the women that choose to be there are A) just as qualified/capable as the men, and B) usually tough as nails.

As SVRex said, much more eloquently than I apparently did, thinking that women or minorities wouldn't want to be doing these jobs because they can be difficult environments is doing those groups a disservice, and discrediting a ton of the people in those fields already. You can work with shiny happy people in a doctor's office just as easily as a construction site or a FOB.

In reply to STM317 :

In many ways the trades environment is healthier than the doctors office or other white collar environment.  In those places everything is behind the back and passive aggressive.  No one will say anything to a poor performer for fear of lawsuits or other headaches.  You might, MIGHT get a bad review as a warning.  We've stopped communicating honestly in those environments .

When i worked at a marina in college, this was a common conversation (not usually directed at me, thankfully): "hey, you lazy piece of E36 M3, if you don't get those pieces moved up to storage and the docks cleaned up before the end of the day, I'm going to shove my steel toed boot straight up your ass, get berkeleying moving!"   

Is that an unhealthy environment?  If salty language offends you, maybe it is.  I would argue it was actually exceedingly clear communication by the boss about both job performance and expectations.  And if you got your stuff done, even after getting yelled at, there were no hard feelings the next day, on either side . 

Blatant racism or sexism is a different story, if it is intended cruelly.  If you got a slightly inappropriate nickname that was the equivalent of mine (berkeleying new guy at first, later college boy), that was actually a sign of acceptance from the rest of the staff and commercial boat crews that worked there.   

Three comments:

There are a lot of trades. When kids think about what they want to do they think doctor, lawyer, engineer, teacher, scientist flavor of the week, or some liberal arts specialty that caters to an interest but will never pay off the loans. When parents think about trades they think plumber, electrician, iron worker,  machinist, and maybe transcriber or stenographer.   No one thinks about being a lineman,  boiler operator,  or power plant worker. There are thousands of jobs right now in the power industry that don't require degrees but do require passing a background check that half of the hs graduates can't pass.

There are some military jobs that don't involve carrying a weapon and that translate directly to six figure jobs. Six years in the nuclear Navy gets you a $120k/yr+ job.  It should be a consideration. 

Lastly,  there are a lot of educational resources out there.   My wife is on the team building and developing a resource for students for her company geared towards educating them on their options other than huge college debt.  I'd toss a link up, but it is probably inappropriate to push one company here.  PM if you're interested in a link.

Edit: one more thing about male dominated fields:

I'm responsible with my partner for conducting face to face training of over 1200 electricians,  linemen,  communications technicians,  and dispatchers for over 80 different companies.  I'm on committees with management and trainers from all the big companies that provide power to the entire continent.  The entire industry wants more women and minorities in their workforce.  Every one of the biggest companies sees the studies about how much more successful a company with a diverse background can be, and they all want it so bad it hurts. A competent woman who is willing to work hard and not lean on her gender as a crutch can write her own ticket right to the top.  

mazdeuce - Seth said:

Suprf1y said:

When I was in high school they told us......

People will tell you that those days are gone and you just can't do that anymore.........

BullE36 M3.

Hard working Conscientious people showing up for work every day can still advance.

The danger for kids has always been trying to predict the future. What worked for you might not work for your kids. When I was a teen there was still a lot of pressure on people to get a good union job at the auto parts plant. Those guys are doing ok, but nowhere near what their dads or grandpas did. There was also the school teacher route. It was a respected position and pay and benefits were good and the world always needs teachers. The current state of teaching is different than it was. "The trades" is a pretty broad stroke. I knew a number of people that lost just about everything during the housing bust. They had great skill sets but nobody was building. For years. Welders have also suffered as the oil fields wax and wane. It's seldom as simple as "I'm successful so do what I did". 

Actually it did work for my kids, but it may or may not work for other people. That's why I said can and not will.

Good jobs come and go with the economy and progress, though it's no different than spending 4 or more years in school and either not being able to find a job in your chosen path or realizing after spending all that money that it's not what you want to do.

My kids had the opportunity to go to college and they knew it. They also knew that there was no chance that I would pay for their education unless it would lead to a legit job in that field. Neither went.

In reply to RX Reven' :

Thanks for the link, I'll definitely check those out! 

As a uneducated lowly tradesman, I'll throw my meandering two cents on the pile. 

I'll start by saying that any money spent on college for me would have been wasted. My parents would have given me a free ride but I despised school. I despised it so much I dropped out of high school my senior year and ran off and got married. I don't even have a high school diploma. I have a GED. I've been working ever since. Some of it with my hands, some of it riding a desk. I've done everything from dig ditches to inventory control for a regional utility company. The time spent riding a desk was pure misery to me. Those are the longest days of my life so far. I have quit good paying desk jobs to get back out in the field. 

I started my own business 12 years ago. I could be a desk jockey the rest of my life but I still spend as much time in the field working as I possibly can. I have a pretty good partner that does most of the desk duty so I don't have to. I still end up spending a couple of days a week riding a desk. It still sucks. I walk through the Boeing offices and see all of the engineers playing with lines on a screen and thank the good Lord I didn't want to be a engineer. That would be pure hell. 

At this point, my pay has more than exceeded the pay of just about every college educated person I associate with, so avoiding college didn't cost me anything monetarily. 

I'm not requiring my kids to go to college but they do have that option. I did, and do, require them to have a plan for life. It doesn't have to be step by step, but just a general thought of what they would like and how they will get there. 

So far, the eldest didn't go to college. He's following my path. He's 30, has 4 kids and works with me. He will probably end up buying my partner out when the time comes. 

The second did. She has a business degree from a private school. She enjoyed the experience. She has a desk job with a large corporation and so far seems to like it. It's a good thing she didn't require debt to go to school. For what a business degree gets you in todays job market, it would take forever to pay off the $100+k. She is consistently at the top of her department and takes all the additional education they offer. I don't think she will be at the bottom of the corporate pile for long. 

The third is going into the Marine Corps. He wants to be a combat engineer. I think he's crazy, but I'll support his decision. He has a plan and is working toward a goal. That's all I can ask. 

The fourth want's to go into aerospace engineering. He turned 15 today. His plan is ROTC and the Naval Academy. We will see how that progresses. My guess is it is subject to change. But he has the beginnings of a plan and is moving it forward.

I'm having my 10 year old daughter read this thread.

Toyman01 said:

But he has the beginnings of a plan and is moving it forward.

This is so key.. pick a direction.  You can change direction at any time... but pick one.  Not choosing a direction is a choice.. but one that will provide all the results of the effort you put in..  which is nothing.

Both of the girls I'm throwing money at are the top couple percent of their class, and both going into STEM fields. All of my kids have grown up knowing about their college funds and knowing that my wife and I consider them investments in their future. We pay attention to our investments and try not to make bad ones. You want to be a doctor and it looks like you can pull it off? Good investment. You want to be a civil engineer and have the drive for it? Good investment. You want to study the evolution of midlevel silverware? Bad investment. For that one you're taking out loans. Now, finish the degree, get a good solid job analyzing King Arthur's fork, and we'll probably help throw some money to pay them down, but waste four years and you waste your own money. My oldest calls us dream killers. 

KyAllroad (Jeremy) said:

I fail to understand why more young people aren't scrambling to get into the military.  If I could have a do-over and go back to 18 year old me it'd be Air Force for 20-25 years.  Earn my degree while in, maybe take a commission along the way.  Get out with a decent retirement in my 40's and continue using that degree and experience in the civilian world.  Nursing, biomedical engineering, radiology, and many many more fields are available for someone willing to don the uniform. 

Life happens, some people have it happen to them but the smart ones make things happen and they end up in a much better situation.

Because, the military is some E36 M3. There's a reason they gotta throw benefits at you because you put up with some serious E36 M3 that most people wouldn't really want to put up with.

And yeah there's amazing career fields to get into especially in the air force. But, they may only need 4 biomedical engineering recruits for 2018, good luck getting into that.

In reality, the best advice is to have a goal when you join. I have no issue with people who join for 4 years so they can get the GI Bill and split. I don't blame them. But, most of the jobs that have big qoutas to fill are your aircraft mechanics and security forces. Both are notoriously disgruntled Airmen. Another option is look into your state national guard and see what educational benefits they're offering. Being guard or reserve is a lot more laid back and the opportunity to take long hiatus away from the military to pursue education is a lot greater. I know the California national guard and air national guard will pay for 4 years of any California state school for you or your dependents if you serve something like 4-6 years. Each state is different though. 

If I didn't have my kid at 21 years old I wouldn't of did more than my first enlistment. Now 11 years in and my family seems to use every bit of that "free" healthcare. Upside I hit 20yrs at 38yrs old so I'll still be young getting out with a retirement and broken body. 

STM317 said:

pheller said:

SVreX said:

pheller said:

SVREX, would you be ok with your daughter working in the trades? As in, home construction, paving, plumbing, etc? 

Absolutely. I wish they both would. There are tremendous opportunities for women in the construction industry RIGHT NOW.   

And you've never encountered environments where a female might feel threatened working in? I dunno, you must work with some real professionals, because in my brief time in construction I encountered environments not only toxic to young people in that trade, but ones where a woman could walk in and file a bunch of discrimination suites on the first day. Even in my "professional" environment of a corporate utility, the construction crews do all kinds of highly unprofessional crap. 

To be clear, professionalism and lack of it happens in every field, but I just believe it happens more in the trades. 

In 18 years when my daughter is entering the workforce would I support her working in the trades? Sure. But I certainly hope that by that time the "old guard" of the trades is dead and gone and the level of professionalism has hit a higher bar. 

You basically just described any male dominated career. It's not just the trades, it's the military, or law enforcement, or fire fighting, or working as a mechanic, or driving a truck, or a ton of other things. Women/minorities can and do thrive in those environments, but they can always "dish it as well as they take it". First of all, the men in those roles need to change, and that's occurring (all be it slower than preferred) but secondly quit selling these groups short, or thinking of them as soft and unable to handle themselves in a situation where they're outnumbered. If we want people to be equal, then we have to stop thinking of them as unable to do things just because of physical traits that they can't control.

 

I have an acquaintance who owns a decent sized local plumbing company. He'd give about anything to have female plumbers working for him. He says that they tend to put many customers more at ease than male plumbers.

I agree.  Minorities and women can probably take the adversity better than whatever the opposite of what he considers minorities/women lol. No matter where you work that E36 M3 is there. Racism and sexism is as common in the office as it would be in trades. This is America. I rather deal with the people who are ignorant or hateful outloud than deal with the whisperers. 

Never went to college. I'm berkeleyin broke, but I'm not in debt. 

In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :

LOL, my daughter is $70K per year.  Plus living expenses.  

Toyman01 said:

As a uneducated lowly tradesman, I'll throw my meandering two cents on the pile. 

I've done everything from dig ditches to inventory control for a regional utility company. The time spent riding a desk was pure misery to me. Those are the longest days of my life so far. I have quit good paying desk jobs to get back out in the field. 

I started my own business 12 years ago. I could be a desk jockey the rest of my life but I still spend as much time in the field working as I possibly can. I have a pretty good partner that does most of the desk duty so I don't have to. I still end up spending a couple of days a week riding a desk. It still sucks. 

I'm curious. What is does your business do, and what kind of stuff do you do in the field? 

In reply to pheller :

Sales, service, and installation of automatic pedestrian doors. We also do a lot of commercial door repairs. I've been in this industry for 17 years. 

Today for instance, I went to East Cooper Hospital to troubleshoot a door that was not working. Next up was a trip to a house owned by the Disability Board of Charleston to repair a couple of key fobs that weren't operating the front door. Then the Medical University to look at a door that hit someone so we could quote a safety sensor package. While there, I replaced a touchless switch that was not working properly. Now I'm at my desk pretending to work, just like a lot of other guys on here. 

This week is a little sucky because I'm going to have to work Saturday helping the guys install a couple of ICU doors in the Heart and Vascular unit at MUSC. But my helping them keeps them from having to put in a 10+ hour day. 

We do a lot of medical work. Of the 7 hospitals in the area we are the door vendor for 5 of them. We also service all of the military installations in town and the FLETC facility. That's good for us because it makes us pretty recession proof. The '08 downturn was felt, but we were in no danger of going out of business.