Convince me: Assault weapons edition

T.J. said:

z31maniac said:

z31maniac said:

Legitimate question:

What are you guys doing that you don't feel safe without a pistol or rifle nearby? I grew up in Tulsa, look up the violent crime per capita rates, working at QTs in ROUGH neighborhoods.................like we piled up cased of beer to hide the bullet holes, or one store I worked at where a manager was taken into the cooler and beaten to death with a baseball bat. 

I was actually robbed at knife point in one of less dangerous stores. 

I'm genuinely curious. 

Stop with the religious/spiritual junk, answer this.

I can't answer that question because it does not apply to me. I feel safe without a rifle and/or pistol nearby.

Sure just like I do, and even OKC is an incredibly violent place if you go off the statistics. IIRC (and someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) Tulsa is ~Top 10 in homicide/violent crime per capita in this country. I think OKC is roughly 35. As a counterpoint, NYC is down around 60. So I'm well aware of violent crime and how much it happens.

I'm genuinely curious what some are doing in their daily life that they don't feel safe without a firearm? Antihero brought up defending his land from animals, that's not germane to the discussion.

I fully support Concealed carry and firearm ownership, I'm just seriously curious about the people that feel the need to carry all the time. And I find often the only answer I get is "My Right" which ignores what the 2nd Amendment was about.




 

z31maniac said:

z31maniac said:

Legitimate question:

What are you guys doing that you don't feel safe without a pistol or rifle nearby? I grew up in Tulsa, look up the violent crime per capita rates, working at QTs in ROUGH neighborhoods.................like we piled up cased of beer to hide the bullet holes, or one store I worked at where a manager was taken into the cooler and beaten to death with a baseball bat. 

I was actually robbed at knife point in one of less dangerous stores. 

I'm genuinely curious. 

Stop with the religious/spiritual junk, answer this.

Most the time it's no different than having any other tool around.

I live in a "nice" neighborhood but those from not nice neighborhoods not too far away and other crackheads pass through at night looking for unlocked car doors and backyard gates. The neighbor directly behind me (house prior to this, same hood, two streets over) part of the Vietnamese community, had a home invasion during the day, bound and beat and robbed them. Another member of the Vietnamese community in the same development sent his wife to pick up inventory instead of going himself like he usually does, was chilling at home and two men broke in expecting the wife. The man heard them trying the front door as well as the garage door, told them he had a gun they still kicked down the garage door and rushed him, he had to let off multiple shots before they ran off, one made it to just past the driveway before he dropped dead. These are not people involved in any illicit business or shady characters. Just small business owners and family men in middle class neighborhoods. Maybe people think us Viets have money or something (I definitely do not) but they seem to target us. 

Not so long ago we had a huge fire that was close enough to affect us here in Ventura county. The power completely went out for most of the night affecting most of the town. Cell phone service was basically non existent across numerous providers. I live near the hospital and we were hearing a lot of sirens (not firefighters, the fire wasn't that close) I only had an AR-15 at the time that was purchased for recreational use, but that night it was my home defense weapon. I felt a lot better knowing I had the ability to defend myself, and even more relieved when I didn't have to. The next morning after the power started coming back on, lots of reports of increased petty crime from opportunistic pieces of crap who took advantage of the situation. Add to that coastal and earthquake zone so things like that night can and will happen. What if the food or water supply is cut off for extended amounts of time and even more people drop the veneer of civility? 

The police are a reactionary force, I'm my family's first line of defense. Firearms are just one important tool of many.

Boost_Crazy said:

I think many of you are missing the point of the second amendment. It wasn't about hunting, or target shooting. It was about giving the people the right to protect themselves, and the number one priority was protecting themselves from their own government. Not on an individual basis, but as a whole. An armed populace is much harder for a government to abuse, especially back at our founding. No one distrusted government more that the founders themselves. Over most of the history of civilization throughout the world, power has been abused. When it was written, the average citizen could be armed as well as the average soldier. It could be argued that our country would not exist as it does today if it were not for the second amendment. 

Our founders were wise enough to realize that while times may change, human nature does not. It didn't in the last couple thousand years prior to our founding, and it hasn't since. 

Those of you who say, "we don't need guns, we have our military to protect us" are ignoring history and human nature. We live in a brief and not guaranteed period of time where most people are fat and happy. Change that, and the rules change. Those with the guns will make the rules. He average citizen is not a match for a soldier today. Not even close. But there are a lot more of them. Hence the resistance to further regulation by law abiding gun owners. So to answer the question as to why a law abiding citizen should be able to possess an "assault" weapon- because they exist and are possessed by other people.

The 2nd Amendment regards fighting against Tyranny of the US government, and foreign invaders. 

Well since we have a military that no one could touch (not even bringing in the next 19 largest military spenders our are Allies), so that's not really a threat. Then when you go against Tyranny of the US government.........what's your AR and 1911 going to do against drones? Tanks? Fighter aircraft?

*The military would never turn their guns on the people*

So why again? 


I'm just trying to play the devil's advocate. And when I take this stance, I have never received an answer beyond "it's our right."

DuctTape&Bondo said:

z31maniac said:

z31maniac said:

Legitimate question:

What are you guys doing that you don't feel safe without a pistol or rifle nearby? I grew up in Tulsa, look up the violent crime per capita rates, working at QTs in ROUGH neighborhoods.................like we piled up cased of beer to hide the bullet holes, or one store I worked at where a manager was taken into the cooler and beaten to death with a baseball bat. 

I was actually robbed at knife point in one of less dangerous stores. 

I'm genuinely curious. 

Stop with the religious/spiritual junk, answer this.

Most the time it's no different than having any other tool around.

I live in a "nice" neighborhood but those from not nice neighborhoods not too far away and other crackheads pass through at night looking for unlocked car doors and backyard gates. The neighbor directly behind me (house prior to this, same hood, two streets over) part of the Vietnamese community, had a home invasion during the day, bound and beat and robbed them. Another member of the Vietnamese community in the same development sent his wife to pick up inventory instead of going himself like he usually does, was chilling at home and two men broke in expecting the wife. The man heard them trying the front door as well as the garage door, told them he had a gun they still kicked down the garage door and rushed him, he had to let off multiple shots before they ran off, one made it to just past the driveway before he dropped dead. These are not people involved in any illicit business or shady characters. Just small business owners and family men in middle class neighborhoods. Maybe people think us Viets have money or something (I definitely do not) but they seem to target us. 

Not so long ago we had a huge fire that was close enough to affect us here in Ventura county. The power completely went out for most of the night affecting most of the town. Cell phone service was basically non existent across numerous providers. I live near the hospital and we were hearing a lot of sirens (not firefighters, the fire wasn't that close) I only had an AR-15 at the time that was purchased for recreational use, but that night it was my home defense weapon. I felt a lot better knowing I had the ability to defend myself, and even more relieved when I didn't have to. The next morning after the power started coming back on, lots of reports of increased petty crime from opportunistic pieces of crap who took advantage of the situation. Add to that coastal and earthquake zone so things like that night can and will happen. What if the food or water supply is cut off for extended amounts of time and even more people drop the veneer of civility? 

The police are a reactionary force, I'm my family's first line of defense. Firearms are just one important tool of many.

So murdering someone is defensible to prevent petty crime? 

z31maniac said:

Boost_Crazy said:

I think many of you are missing the point of the second amendment. It wasn't about hunting, or target shooting. It was about giving the people the right to protect themselves, and the number one priority was protecting themselves from their own government. Not on an individual basis, but as a whole. An armed populace is much harder for a government to abuse, especially back at our founding. No one distrusted government more that the founders themselves. Over most of the history of civilization throughout the world, power has been abused. When it was written, the average citizen could be armed as well as the average soldier. It could be argued that our country would not exist as it does today if it were not for the second amendment. 

Our founders were wise enough to realize that while times may change, human nature does not. It didn't in the last couple thousand years prior to our founding, and it hasn't since. 

Those of you who say, "we don't need guns, we have our military to protect us" are ignoring history and human nature. We live in a brief and not guaranteed period of time where most people are fat and happy. Change that, and the rules change. Those with the guns will make the rules. He average citizen is not a match for a soldier today. Not even close. But there are a lot more of them. Hence the resistance to further regulation by law abiding gun owners. So to answer the question as to why a law abiding citizen should be able to possess an "assault" weapon- because they exist and are possessed by other people.

The 2nd Amendment regards fighting against Tyranny of the US government, and foreign invaders. 

Well since we have a military that no one could touch (not even bringing in the next 19 largest military spenders our are Allies), so that's not really a threat. Then when you go against Tyranny of the US government.........what's your AR and 1911 going to do against drones? Tanks? Fighter aircraft?

*The military would never turn their guns on the people*

So why again? 


I'm just trying to play the devil's advocate. And when I take this stance, I have never received an answer beyond "it's our right."

Lol. Good luck against the nukes, dood. Thank god you have that AR

z31maniac said:

The 2nd Amendment regards fighting against Tyranny of the US government, and foreign invaders. 

Well since we have a military that no one could touch (not even bringing in the next 19 largest military spenders our are Allies), so that's not really a threat. Then when you go against Tyranny of the US government.........what's your AR and 1911 going to do against drones? Tanks? Fighter aircraft?

*The military would never turn their guns on the people*

So why again? 


I'm just trying to play the devil's advocate. And when I take this stance, I have never received an answer beyond "it's our right."

You're right, give the citizenry access to firearms equal to our armed forces, so at least we'd have a fighting chance vs the drones and heavy machinery. Certainly goes against the narrative that AR-15s are rapid fire military rifles that don't belong in average hands and would be at home in any modern day battlefield. 

Chris_V said:

z31maniac said:

z31maniac said:

Legitimate question:

What are you guys doing that you don't feel safe without a pistol or rifle nearby? I
I'm genuinely curious. 

Stop with the religious/spiritual junk, answer this.

I don't have guns, so I'm not your target.

I also find it odd that the same people that say deterrents and laws and bans don't work are asking for the same for cell phone use in cars...

That has just passed into law around here and based on my observations it has not been a deterrent to using cell phones in cars.

mtn said:

DuctTape&Bondo said:

z31maniac said:

z31maniac said:

Legitimate question:

What are you guys doing that you don't feel safe without a pistol or rifle nearby? I grew up in Tulsa, look up the violent crime per capita rates, working at QTs in ROUGH neighborhoods.................like we piled up cased of beer to hide the bullet holes, or one store I worked at where a manager was taken into the cooler and beaten to death with a baseball bat. 

I was actually robbed at knife point in one of less dangerous stores. 

I'm genuinely curious. 

Stop with the religious/spiritual junk, answer this.

Most the time it's no different than having any other tool around.

I live in a "nice" neighborhood but those from not nice neighborhoods not too far away and other crackheads pass through at night looking for unlocked car doors and backyard gates. The neighbor directly behind me (house prior to this, same hood, two streets over) part of the Vietnamese community, had a home invasion during the day, bound and beat and robbed them. Another member of the Vietnamese community in the same development sent his wife to pick up inventory instead of going himself like he usually does, was chilling at home and two men broke in expecting the wife. The man heard them trying the front door as well as the garage door, told them he had a gun they still kicked down the garage door and rushed him, he had to let off multiple shots before they ran off, one made it to just past the driveway before he dropped dead. These are not people involved in any illicit business or shady characters. Just small business owners and family men in middle class neighborhoods. Maybe people think us Viets have money or something (I definitely do not) but they seem to target us. 

Not so long ago we had a huge fire that was close enough to affect us here in Ventura county. The power completely went out for most of the night affecting most of the town. Cell phone service was basically non existent across numerous providers. I live near the hospital and we were hearing a lot of sirens (not firefighters, the fire wasn't that close) I only had an AR-15 at the time that was purchased for recreational use, but that night it was my home defense weapon. I felt a lot better knowing I had the ability to defend myself, and even more relieved when I didn't have to. The next morning after the power started coming back on, lots of reports of increased petty crime from opportunistic pieces of crap who took advantage of the situation. Add to that coastal and earthquake zone so things like that night can and will happen. What if the food or water supply is cut off for extended amounts of time and even more people drop the veneer of civility? 

The police are a reactionary force, I'm my family's first line of defense. Firearms are just one important tool of many.

So murdering someone is defensible to prevent petty crime? 

 

Yes. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. 

If you decided to kick in this front door, you're getting a bullet or my pit bull. Just depends on who gets there first. :)

DuctTape&Bondo said:

z31maniac said:

The 2nd Amendment regards fighting against Tyranny of the US government, and foreign invaders. 

Well since we have a military that no one could touch (not even bringing in the next 19 largest military spenders our are Allies), so that's not really a threat. Then when you go against Tyranny of the US government.........what's your AR and 1911 going to do against drones? Tanks? Fighter aircraft?

*The military would never turn their guns on the people*

So why again? 


I'm just trying to play the devil's advocate. And when I take this stance, I have never received an answer beyond "it's our right."

You're right, give the citizenry access to firearms equal to our armed forces, so at least we'd have a fighting chance vs the drones and heavy machinery. Certainly goes against the narrative that AR-15s are rapid fire military rifles that don't belong in average hands and would be at home in any modern day battlefield. 

Yes, you're 55 year old accountant neighbor down the street is going to be a match for the 20 year old marine who has done months of exhaustive training. 

I'm honestly curious what "Walking Dead" world some of you think is reality.
 

z31maniac said:

mtn said:

DuctTape&Bondo said:

z31maniac said:

z31maniac said:

Legitimate question:

What are you guys doing that you don't feel safe without a pistol or rifle nearby? I grew up in Tulsa, look up the violent crime per capita rates, working at QTs in ROUGH neighborhoods.................like we piled up cased of beer to hide the bullet holes, or one store I worked at where a manager was taken into the cooler and beaten to death with a baseball bat. 

I was actually robbed at knife point in one of less dangerous stores. 

I'm genuinely curious. 

Stop with the religious/spiritual junk, answer this.

Most the time it's no different than having any other tool around.

I live in a "nice" neighborhood but those from not nice neighborhoods not too far away and other crackheads pass through at night looking for unlocked car doors and backyard gates. The neighbor directly behind me (house prior to this, same hood, two streets over) part of the Vietnamese community, had a home invasion during the day, bound and beat and robbed them. Another member of the Vietnamese community in the same development sent his wife to pick up inventory instead of going himself like he usually does, was chilling at home and two men broke in expecting the wife. The man heard them trying the front door as well as the garage door, told them he had a gun they still kicked down the garage door and rushed him, he had to let off multiple shots before they ran off, one made it to just past the driveway before he dropped dead. These are not people involved in any illicit business or shady characters. Just small business owners and family men in middle class neighborhoods. Maybe people think us Viets have money or something (I definitely do not) but they seem to target us. 

Not so long ago we had a huge fire that was close enough to affect us here in Ventura county. The power completely went out for most of the night affecting most of the town. Cell phone service was basically non existent across numerous providers. I live near the hospital and we were hearing a lot of sirens (not firefighters, the fire wasn't that close) I only had an AR-15 at the time that was purchased for recreational use, but that night it was my home defense weapon. I felt a lot better knowing I had the ability to defend myself, and even more relieved when I didn't have to. The next morning after the power started coming back on, lots of reports of increased petty crime from opportunistic pieces of crap who took advantage of the situation. Add to that coastal and earthquake zone so things like that night can and will happen. What if the food or water supply is cut off for extended amounts of time and even more people drop the veneer of civility? 

The police are a reactionary force, I'm my family's first line of defense. Firearms are just one important tool of many.

So murdering someone is defensible to prevent petty crime? 

 

Yes. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. 

If you decided to kick in this front door, you're getting a bullet or my pit bull. Just depends on who gets there first. :)

B+E != Petty crime. 

mtn said:

DuctTape&Bondo said:

z31maniac said:

z31maniac said:

Legitimate question:

What are you guys doing that you don't feel safe without a pistol or rifle nearby? I grew up in Tulsa, look up the violent crime per capita rates, working at QTs in ROUGH neighborhoods.................like we piled up cased of beer to hide the bullet holes, or one store I worked at where a manager was taken into the cooler and beaten to death with a baseball bat. 

I was actually robbed at knife point in one of less dangerous stores. 

I'm genuinely curious. 

Stop with the religious/spiritual junk, answer this.

Most the time it's no different than having any other tool around.

I live in a "nice" neighborhood but those from not nice neighborhoods not too far away and other crackheads pass through at night looking for unlocked car doors and backyard gates. The neighbor directly behind me (house prior to this, same hood, two streets over) part of the Vietnamese community, had a home invasion during the day, bound and beat and robbed them. Another member of the Vietnamese community in the same development sent his wife to pick up inventory instead of going himself like he usually does, was chilling at home and two men broke in expecting the wife. The man heard them trying the front door as well as the garage door, told them he had a gun they still kicked down the garage door and rushed him, he had to let off multiple shots before they ran off, one made it to just past the driveway before he dropped dead. These are not people involved in any illicit business or shady characters. Just small business owners and family men in middle class neighborhoods. Maybe people think us Viets have money or something (I definitely do not) but they seem to target us. 

Not so long ago we had a huge fire that was close enough to affect us here in Ventura county. The power completely went out for most of the night affecting most of the town. Cell phone service was basically non existent across numerous providers. I live near the hospital and we were hearing a lot of sirens (not firefighters, the fire wasn't that close) I only had an AR-15 at the time that was purchased for recreational use, but that night it was my home defense weapon. I felt a lot better knowing I had the ability to defend myself, and even more relieved when I didn't have to. The next morning after the power started coming back on, lots of reports of increased petty crime from opportunistic pieces of crap who took advantage of the situation. Add to that coastal and earthquake zone so things like that night can and will happen. What if the food or water supply is cut off for extended amounts of time and even more people drop the veneer of civility? 

The police are a reactionary force, I'm my family's first line of defense. Firearms are just one important tool of many.

So murdering someone is defensible to prevent petty crime? 

 

Not at all, I was pointing out that crime increases when the opportunity is there. That night it was petty thieves, what about the nights where something worse is out there? At least I feel better knowing I have a fighting chance.

mtn said:

z31maniac said:

mtn said:

DuctTape&Bondo said:

z31maniac said:

z31maniac said:

Legitimate question:

What are you guys doing that you don't feel safe without a pistol or rifle nearby? I grew up in Tulsa, look up the violent crime per capita rates, working at QTs in ROUGH neighborhoods.................like we piled up cased of beer to hide the bullet holes, or one store I worked at where a manager was taken into the cooler and beaten to death with a baseball bat. 

I was actually robbed at knife point in one of less dangerous stores. 

I'm genuinely curious. 

Stop with the religious/spiritual junk, answer this.

Most the time it's no different than having any other tool around.

I live in a "nice" neighborhood but those from not nice neighborhoods not too far away and other crackheads pass through at night looking for unlocked car doors and backyard gates. The neighbor directly behind me (house prior to this, same hood, two streets over) part of the Vietnamese community, had a home invasion during the day, bound and beat and robbed them. Another member of the Vietnamese community in the same development sent his wife to pick up inventory instead of going himself like he usually does, was chilling at home and two men broke in expecting the wife. The man heard them trying the front door as well as the garage door, told them he had a gun they still kicked down the garage door and rushed him, he had to let off multiple shots before they ran off, one made it to just past the driveway before he dropped dead. These are not people involved in any illicit business or shady characters. Just small business owners and family men in middle class neighborhoods. Maybe people think us Viets have money or something (I definitely do not) but they seem to target us. 

Not so long ago we had a huge fire that was close enough to affect us here in Ventura county. The power completely went out for most of the night affecting most of the town. Cell phone service was basically non existent across numerous providers. I live near the hospital and we were hearing a lot of sirens (not firefighters, the fire wasn't that close) I only had an AR-15 at the time that was purchased for recreational use, but that night it was my home defense weapon. I felt a lot better knowing I had the ability to defend myself, and even more relieved when I didn't have to. The next morning after the power started coming back on, lots of reports of increased petty crime from opportunistic pieces of crap who took advantage of the situation. Add to that coastal and earthquake zone so things like that night can and will happen. What if the food or water supply is cut off for extended amounts of time and even more people drop the veneer of civility? 

The police are a reactionary force, I'm my family's first line of defense. Firearms are just one important tool of many.

So murdering someone is defensible to prevent petty crime? 

 

Yes. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. 

If you decided to kick in this front door, you're getting a bullet or my pit bull. Just depends on who gets there first. :)

B+E != Petty crime. 

Lo siento, since his example was a home invasion, I went with that. But now I'm curious what you were thinking.

mtn said:

DuctTape&Bondo said:

z31maniac said:

z31maniac said:

Legitimate question:

What are you guys doing that you don't feel safe without a pistol or rifle nearby?

I'm genuinely curious. 

Stop with the religious/spiritual junk, answer this.

Most the time it's no different than having any other tool around.

I live in a "nice" neighborhood but those from not nice neighborhoods not too far away and other crackheads pass through at night looking for unlocked car doors and backyard gates. The neighbor directly behind me (house prior to this, same hood, two streets over) part of the Vietnamese community, had a home invasion during the day, bound and beat and robbed them. Another member of the Vietnamese community in the same development sent his wife to pick up inventory instead of going himself like he usually does, was chilling at home and two men broke in expecting the wife. The man heard them trying the front door as well as the garage door, told them he had a gun they still kicked down the garage door and rushed him, he had to let off multiple shots before they ran off, one made it to just past the driveway before he dropped dead. These are not people involved in any illicit business or shady characters. Just small business owners and family men in middle class neighborhoods. Maybe people think us Viets have money or something (I definitely do not) but they seem to target us. 

The police are a reactionary force, I'm my family's first line of defense. Firearms are just one important tool of many.

So murdering someone is defensible to prevent petty crime?

So you personally have the ability to judge accurately that their intent was petty?

I'm pretty sure that if somebody kicks in my door after I tell them that I am armed and they need to go away, their intent is NOT BERKING PETTY CRIME.  Given the information available under those circumstances - that I warned them and they are still attacking me - that's the assumption I'm going to make.  And that makes murdering someone who initiated violence against me defensible, yes.

Breaking and entering even after being told there is someone in the residence is far far from petty.

Gun conversations go about the same as flat earth conversations, if you are vehemently against something it goes beyond a logical response and into an emotional response. Emotional responses are usually illogical and you cant solve an illogical problem with a logical answer.

I own guns because i live in the woods. Lack of guns isnt going to make me any safer. My AR is a 10mm, a bear worth caliber that is in carbine form. A carbine is very easy to shot in general and the AR system is very user friendly, i have taught people how to shoot with that very rifle.

My Junior High has several gun shows in it and has for as long as i can remember, i literally almost bought a gun infront of my old locker. There has never been a school shooting here.

The main reason why these discussions never go well is because you usually have someone that is very anti gun who is not very informed about guns attacking people who own guns. No one has ever ever ever changed their minds while people are yelling and insulting them.

Ahh. The meltdown has occurred. We have the nazi argument and now the I’m going to defend my home against tyranny wet dream. 

Please keep up the the good work people. 

z31maniac said:

mtn said:

z31maniac said:

mtn said:

DuctTape&Bondo said:

z31maniac said:

z31maniac said:

Legitimate question:

What are you guys doing that you don't feel safe without a pistol or rifle nearby? I grew up in Tulsa, look up the violent crime per capita rates, working at QTs in ROUGH neighborhoods.................like we piled up cased of beer to hide the bullet holes, or one store I worked at where a manager was taken into the cooler and beaten to death with a baseball bat. 

I was actually robbed at knife point in one of less dangerous stores. 

I'm genuinely curious. 

Stop with the religious/spiritual junk, answer this.

Most the time it's no different than having any other tool around.

I live in a "nice" neighborhood but those from not nice neighborhoods not too far away and other crackheads pass through at night looking for unlocked car doors and backyard gates. The neighbor directly behind me (house prior to this, same hood, two streets over) part of the Vietnamese community, had a home invasion during the day, bound and beat and robbed them. Another member of the Vietnamese community in the same development sent his wife to pick up inventory instead of going himself like he usually does, was chilling at home and two men broke in expecting the wife. The man heard them trying the front door as well as the garage door, told them he had a gun they still kicked down the garage door and rushed him, he had to let off multiple shots before they ran off, one made it to just past the driveway before he dropped dead. These are not people involved in any illicit business or shady characters. Just small business owners and family men in middle class neighborhoods. Maybe people think us Viets have money or something (I definitely do not) but they seem to target us. 

Not so long ago we had a huge fire that was close enough to affect us here in Ventura county. The power completely went out for most of the night affecting most of the town. Cell phone service was basically non existent across numerous providers. I live near the hospital and we were hearing a lot of sirens (not firefighters, the fire wasn't that close) I only had an AR-15 at the time that was purchased for recreational use, but that night it was my home defense weapon. I felt a lot better knowing I had the ability to defend myself, and even more relieved when I didn't have to. The next morning after the power started coming back on, lots of reports of increased petty crime from opportunistic pieces of crap who took advantage of the situation. Add to that coastal and earthquake zone so things like that night can and will happen. What if the food or water supply is cut off for extended amounts of time and even more people drop the veneer of civility? 

The police are a reactionary force, I'm my family's first line of defense. Firearms are just one important tool of many.

So murdering someone is defensible to prevent petty crime? 

 

Yes. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. 

If you decided to kick in this front door, you're getting a bullet or my pit bull. Just depends on who gets there first. :)

B+E != Petty crime. 

Lo siento, since his example was a home invasion, I went with that. But now I'm curious what you were thinking.

He said Petty crime, opportunistic. Around a home, that means taking stuff from my porch or open garage. Even breaking into my car would fit under there (no chance of harm to me). Things like that. 

Antihero said:

Breaking and entering even after being told there is someone in the residence is far far from petty.

 

Gun conversations go about the same as flat earth conversations, if you are vehemently against something it goes beyond a logical response and into an emotional response. Emotional responses are usually illogical and you cant solve an illogical problem with a logical answer.

I own guns because i live in the woods. Lack of guns isnt going to make me any safer. My AR is a 10mm, a bear worth caliber that is in carbine form. A carbine is very easy to shot in general and the AR system is very user friendly, i have taught people how to shoot with that very rifle.

My Junior High has several gun shows in it and has for as long as i can remember, i literally almost bought a gun infront of my old locker. There has never been a school shooting here.

The main reason why these discussions never go well is because you usually have someone that is very anti gun who is not very informed about guns attacking people who own guns. No one has ever ever ever changed their minds while people are yelling and insulting them.

You're moving the goal posts instead of answering my query, my particular question was about people carrying. You can re-read this page and the previous one. 

I specifically asked what are people doing that they don't feel safe without a weapon. And I ask this as someone who grew up working in very rough neighborhoods and being robbed. 

 

z31maniac said:

Antihero said:

Breaking and entering even after being told there is someone in the residence is far far from petty.

 

Gun conversations go about the same as flat earth conversations, if you are vehemently against something it goes beyond a logical response and into an emotional response. Emotional responses are usually illogical and you cant solve an illogical problem with a logical answer.

I own guns because i live in the woods. Lack of guns isnt going to make me any safer. My AR is a 10mm, a bear worth caliber that is in carbine form. A carbine is very easy to shot in general and the AR system is very user friendly, i have taught people how to shoot with that very rifle.

My Junior High has several gun shows in it and has for as long as i can remember, i literally almost bought a gun infront of my old locker. There has never been a school shooting here.

The main reason why these discussions never go well is because you usually have someone that is very anti gun who is not very informed about guns attacking people who own guns. No one has ever ever ever changed their minds while people are yelling and insulting them.

You're moving the goal posts instead of answering my query, my particular question was about people carrying. You can re-read this page and the previous one. 

I specifically asked what are people doing that they don't feel safe without a weapon. And I ask this as someone who grew up working in very rough neighborhoods and being robbed. 

 

No im not, you asked "What are you guys doing that you dont feel safe without a pistol or rifle nearby?" you didnt specify carrying and it isnt implied unless you think most people have a rifle slung over their back. Goal posts were not moved and i answered it from my experience.

To answer your new question : walking in the woods. I carry when im walking in the woods.

Since its only fair, answer this for me : Why do you feel that you dont need to have a gun?

I personally carry for exactly the same reason all sorts of people want to take guns away from others. We are all scared. 

The only difference between anti gun people and people who carry is that the first group thinks someone else will be able to rescue them from the bad people and the second group doesn't.

You can carry a spare tire or you can carry a AAA membership card and either way probably get where you are going. The difference is how long are you willing to sit on the side of the road?

Antihero said:

z31maniac said:

Antihero said:

Breaking and entering even after being told there is someone in the residence is far far from petty.

 

Gun conversations go about the same as flat earth conversations, if you are vehemently against something it goes beyond a logical response and into an emotional response. Emotional responses are usually illogical and you cant solve an illogical problem with a logical answer.

I own guns because i live in the woods. Lack of guns isnt going to make me any safer. My AR is a 10mm, a bear worth caliber that is in carbine form. A carbine is very easy to shot in general and the AR system is very user friendly, i have taught people how to shoot with that very rifle.

My Junior High has several gun shows in it and has for as long as i can remember, i literally almost bought a gun infront of my old locker. There has never been a school shooting here.

The main reason why these discussions never go well is because you usually have someone that is very anti gun who is not very informed about guns attacking people who own guns. No one has ever ever ever changed their minds while people are yelling and insulting them.

You're moving the goal posts instead of answering my query, my particular question was about people carrying. You can re-read this page and the previous one. 

I specifically asked what are people doing that they don't feel safe without a weapon. And I ask this as someone who grew up working in very rough neighborhoods and being robbed. 

 

No im not, you asked "What are you guys doing that you dont feel safe without a pistol or rifle nearby?" you didnt specify carrying and it isnt implied unless you think most people have a rifle slung over their back. Goal posts were not moved and i answered it from my experience.

To answer your new question : walking in the woods. I carry when im walking in the woods.

Since its only fair, answer this for me : Why do you feel that you dont need to have a gun?

Because I've never been accosted in a way that having a firearm would have helped. I've been mugged. Never would have had a chance to get a firearm out. I've been in very dangerous areas at night (look up Englewood in Chicago, or Waukegan, or West East St. Louis). Never have I had my life threatened. Hell, I've never had an injury even worth mentioning. 

I think the only time I've ever been in a situation where I did want one I couldn't as I was crossing borders--but that was because I wasn't sure I was the slowest person in my group, and I did see some bear E36 M3. 

There are specific instances where I could see it, if I squint (buying/selling a car, for instance), but I really have to squint.

Antihero said:

z31maniac said:

Antihero said:

Breaking and entering even after being told there is someone in the residence is far far from petty.

 

Gun conversations go about the same as flat earth conversations, if you are vehemently against something it goes beyond a logical response and into an emotional response. Emotional responses are usually illogical and you cant solve an illogical problem with a logical answer.

I own guns because i live in the woods. Lack of guns isnt going to make me any safer. My AR is a 10mm, a bear worth caliber that is in carbine form. A carbine is very easy to shot in general and the AR system is very user friendly, i have taught people how to shoot with that very rifle.

My Junior High has several gun shows in it and has for as long as i can remember, i literally almost bought a gun infront of my old locker. There has never been a school shooting here.

The main reason why these discussions never go well is because you usually have someone that is very anti gun who is not very informed about guns attacking people who own guns. No one has ever ever ever changed their minds while people are yelling and insulting them.

You're moving the goal posts instead of answering my query, my particular question was about people carrying. You can re-read this page and the previous one. 

I specifically asked what are people doing that they don't feel safe without a weapon. And I ask this as someone who grew up working in very rough neighborhoods and being robbed. 

 

No im not, you asked "What are you guys doing that you dont feel safe without a pistol or rifle nearby?" you didnt specify carrying and it isnt implied unless you think most people have a rifle slung over their back. Goal posts were not moved and i answered it from my experience.

To answer your new question : walking in the woods. I carry when im walking in the woods.

Since its only fair, answer this for me : Why do you feel that you dont need to have a gun?

I like it! That's not a question I've ever been asked before. 

I guess the only answer I can give is that I don't feel the "need" to carry. As I mentioned, I grew up working in very violent, and dangerous areas. QT gave us hazard pay because of the crime rates.

Sure, can something crazy happen anywhere? No doubt. But the likelyhood? It's incredibly low, incredibly low. I know the "better to not need it and have it" it's just not something that scares me. I've been in plenty of scary situations, a 1911 would not have helped me in any of them.

oldopelguy said:

I personally carry for exactly the same reason all sorts of people want to take guns away from others. We are all scared. 

The only difference between anti gun people and people who carry is that the first group thinks someone else will be able to rescue them from the bad people and the second group doesn't.

You can carry a spare tire or you can carry a AAA membership card and either way probably get where you are going. The difference is how long are you willing to sit on the side of the road?

No, everyone doesn't walk around scared all the time. 

mtn said:

DuctTape&Bondo said:

z31maniac said:

z31maniac said:

Legitimate question:

What are you guys doing that you don't feel safe without a pistol or rifle nearby? I grew up in Tulsa, look up the violent crime per capita rates, working at QTs in ROUGH neighborhoods.................like we piled up cased of beer to hide the bullet holes, or one store I worked at where a manager was taken into the cooler and beaten to death with a baseball bat. 

I was actually robbed at knife point in one of less dangerous stores. 

I'm genuinely curious. 

Stop with the religious/spiritual junk, answer this.

Most the time it's no different than having any other tool around.

I live in a "nice" neighborhood but those from not nice neighborhoods not too far away and other crackheads pass through at night looking for unlocked car doors and backyard gates. The neighbor directly behind me (house prior to this, same hood, two streets over) part of the Vietnamese community, had a home invasion during the day, bound and beat and robbed them. Another member of the Vietnamese community in the same development sent his wife to pick up inventory instead of going himself like he usually does, was chilling at home and two men broke in expecting the wife. The man heard them trying the front door as well as the garage door, told them he had a gun they still kicked down the garage door and rushed him, he had to let off multiple shots before they ran off, one made it to just past the driveway before he dropped dead. These are not people involved in any illicit business or shady characters. Just small business owners and family men in middle class neighborhoods. Maybe people think us Viets have money or something (I definitely do not) but they seem to target us. 

Not so long ago we had a huge fire that was close enough to affect us here in Ventura county. The power completely went out for most of the night affecting most of the town. Cell phone service was basically non existent across numerous providers. I live near the hospital and we were hearing a lot of sirens (not firefighters, the fire wasn't that close) I only had an AR-15 at the time that was purchased for recreational use, but that night it was my home defense weapon. I felt a lot better knowing I had the ability to defend myself, and even more relieved when I didn't have to. The next morning after the power started coming back on, lots of reports of increased petty crime from opportunistic pieces of crap who took advantage of the situation. Add to that coastal and earthquake zone so things like that night can and will happen. What if the food or water supply is cut off for extended amounts of time and even more people drop the veneer of civility? 

The police are a reactionary force, I'm my family's first line of defense. Firearms are just one important tool of many.

So murdering someone is defensible to prevent petty crime? 

 

From a legal stand point - the answer is generally yes.  A person has the right to defend themselves with lethal force to protect self and property (interpretational details about this can vary by state). 

As a moral question, the answer is up to the individual.  And while under the law, killing an intruder may not result in legal consequences, but it often results in civil lawsuits - which typically require significant resources to defend against. Even if you may be 100% in the right, a crying mother in front of a jury can be a difficult opponent. 

I have a friend who gave up his CCP after making the decision the liability risk wasn't worth it.  

z31maniac said:

Antihero said:

z31maniac said:

Antihero said:

Breaking and entering even after being told there is someone in the residence is far far from petty.

 

Gun conversations go about the same as flat earth conversations, if you are vehemently against something it goes beyond a logical response and into an emotional response. Emotional responses are usually illogical and you cant solve an illogical problem with a logical answer.

I own guns because i live in the woods. Lack of guns isnt going to make me any safer. My AR is a 10mm, a bear worth caliber that is in carbine form. A carbine is very easy to shot in general and the AR system is very user friendly, i have taught people how to shoot with that very rifle.

My Junior High has several gun shows in it and has for as long as i can remember, i literally almost bought a gun infront of my old locker. There has never been a school shooting here.

The main reason why these discussions never go well is because you usually have someone that is very anti gun who is not very informed about guns attacking people who own guns. No one has ever ever ever changed their minds while people are yelling and insulting them.

You're moving the goal posts instead of answering my query, my particular question was about people carrying. You can re-read this page and the previous one. 

I specifically asked what are people doing that they don't feel safe without a weapon. And I ask this as someone who grew up working in very rough neighborhoods and being robbed. 

 

No im not, you asked "What are you guys doing that you dont feel safe without a pistol or rifle nearby?" you didnt specify carrying and it isnt implied unless you think most people have a rifle slung over their back. Goal posts were not moved and i answered it from my experience.

To answer your new question : walking in the woods. I carry when im walking in the woods.

Since its only fair, answer this for me : Why do you feel that you dont need to have a gun?

I like it! That's not a question I've ever been asked before. 

I guess the only answer I can give is that I don't feel the "need" to carry. As I mentioned, I grew up working in very violent, and dangerous areas. QT gave us hazard pay because of the crime rates.

Sure, can something crazy happen anywhere? No doubt. But the likelyhood? It's incredibly low, incredibly low. I know the "better to not need it and have it" it's just not something that scares me. I've been in plenty of scary situations, a 1911 would not have helped me in any of them.

Ok, so you are making a judgment based on personal experience and how this stimuli made you feel.

Heres 2 more questions for you:

Do you think that your life experience is shared by the vast majority of people?

What do you think the logical response would be if someone was in a situation that they felt the need for a gun but didnt have it would be?

Antihero said:

z31maniac said:

Antihero said:

z31maniac said:

Antihero said:

Breaking and entering even after being told there is someone in the residence is far far from petty.

 

Gun conversations go about the same as flat earth conversations, if you are vehemently against something it goes beyond a logical response and into an emotional response. Emotional responses are usually illogical and you cant solve an illogical problem with a logical answer.

I own guns because i live in the woods. Lack of guns isnt going to make me any safer. My AR is a 10mm, a bear worth caliber that is in carbine form. A carbine is very easy to shot in general and the AR system is very user friendly, i have taught people how to shoot with that very rifle.

My Junior High has several gun shows in it and has for as long as i can remember, i literally almost bought a gun infront of my old locker. There has never been a school shooting here.

The main reason why these discussions never go well is because you usually have someone that is very anti gun who is not very informed about guns attacking people who own guns. No one has ever ever ever changed their minds while people are yelling and insulting them.

You're moving the goal posts instead of answering my query, my particular question was about people carrying. You can re-read this page and the previous one. 

I specifically asked what are people doing that they don't feel safe without a weapon. And I ask this as someone who grew up working in very rough neighborhoods and being robbed. 

 

No im not, you asked "What are you guys doing that you dont feel safe without a pistol or rifle nearby?" you didnt specify carrying and it isnt implied unless you think most people have a rifle slung over their back. Goal posts were not moved and i answered it from my experience.

To answer your new question : walking in the woods. I carry when im walking in the woods.

Since its only fair, answer this for me : Why do you feel that you dont need to have a gun?

I like it! That's not a question I've ever been asked before. 

I guess the only answer I can give is that I don't feel the "need" to carry. As I mentioned, I grew up working in very violent, and dangerous areas. QT gave us hazard pay because of the crime rates.

Sure, can something crazy happen anywhere? No doubt. But the likelyhood? It's incredibly low, incredibly low. I know the "better to not need it and have it" it's just not something that scares me. I've been in plenty of scary situations, a 1911 would not have helped me in any of them.

Ok, so you are making a judgment based on personal experience and how this stimuli made you feel.

Heres 2 more questions for you:

Do you think that your life experience is shared by the vast majority of people?

What do you think the logical response would be if someone was in a situation that they felt the need for a gun but didnt have it would be?

Just like everyone makes judgments based on their personal experience. Not being an ass, I do like that you're asking pointed questions so we can see the other persons point of view. It's great, and so rarely happens on the internet. 

I know that my life experience isn't shared by most people. Most people have never had a knife held at their throat while being told to empty the register. I completely understand that. My point is, I've been through these situations, when I was 16-17 I worked in areas that adults carrying a pistol would be afraid to go NOW. That doesn't make me any better than anyone else, I've just been in it and it doesn't scare me. 

That's a good question. I don't have an answer. Because it's not black and white. My girlfriend had her phone and purse stolen in a Walmart parking lot, at noon broad daylight, 2 months ago. The kid tapped her on the shoulder and by the time she turned around he grabbed her stuff and jumped into a truck. She didn't even get a chance to pull her mace. That's how these things often happen in the real world.