Cracked: The Occupy Wallstreet Generation

I hear Argentina is nice - has a good car culture, friendly people and cheap cost of living.

SVreX wrote: So, the bailouts were a stupid idea- let's have more!! I've been in construction 35 years. No industry has taken a bigger dive than mine. But it was not the Wall Street bankers who poisoned the pond. It was me. And it was you. With our unreasonable expectations and our willingness to go so far into debt that we couldn't manage it anymore. The only thing the bankers did was oblige our lusts and our greed. My government enabled the bankers to make a profit by encouraging our corporate lusts and greed for bigger houses, nicer cars, and big screen TV's. American dream, right? We deserve it, right? Now I am supposed to complain about it and cry for a bailout from the same government that let me down the first time? I'm supposed to cry about the banker's greed and not recognize my own? berkeley that. I'm finding a new pond. Enjoy your pity party.

I'm not the one in the park protesting. I have a job, and a good one. I paid off several student loans for several degrees. I can pay my bills. I own my own house and it is almost paid off. I have cars and boats and motorcycles and all the other good stuff and I didn't need a federal bailout to get any of it. Most of them I bought used and paid cash for and some of them didn't run when I first got them. I even have money to waste on my silly dog rescue group. I can afford to pull a dog from the pound with a broken leg, pay then pay my vet $3,000 to fix the leg and then adopt the dog out to somebody else for $300 and a don't ask the government to pay me back for any of it. Yeah, I spend stupid money rescuing dogs, but it's all money I made. But I also understand that when I went to college tuition was about 1/4 of what it is now. When I bought my home it cost about half of what houses cost now. And if I had graduated in 2011 instead of back when I did and I was shopping a resume with no experience, I probably wouldn't be getting the work experience today that I was getting back then and I might not be where I am today.

The one thing that I have that you and your hater friends don't have is compassion. The kids out there protesting didn't get the BMW, the high paying job and the Mini-Mansion with the HELOC. That was my generation and probably yours. We didn't have to compete with people in India and China when we were getting experience who would work for monthly wages that were less than what monthly rent would be in most American cities. They did. Their greed didn't cause this mess. That again was our generation. What they got was a tuition that was more than twice what us older people paid, a nice big student loan to pay off and an big piece of paper shoved in their face that said NOT HIRING. Our generation got the steak and sure, some of us pissed it away, but the next generation after ours got the raw deal.

If you can't show compassion for the kids who were late to the party and had to make do with the scraps, then YOU are the one that I pity. And YOU, my good man, can go jump in the pond.

Snowdoggie wrote: If you can't show compassion for the kids who were late to the party and had to make do with the scraps, then YOU are the one that I pity. And YOU, my good man, can go jump in the pond.

Compassion has nothing to do with it. I will gladly help someone on the side of the road. I have given away gas, fixed cars, lent/given tools, given parts, drove six hours one way once to help out. I don't expect the government to start a universal roadside assistance program that I don't have any choice about paying for because everyone bought Maseratis while I drive a boring old econobox. You're basically asking everyone to suffer because a lot of people made bad decisions. If I can help, I will gladly help. Don 't make me do it, and don't tax me into it, that's not help, it's enabling. It will make the main issue that much worse. You can pity me all you want, and push me into the pond, but I'll get out, dry myself out and go back to work doing whatever it takes.

Josh wrote: In reply to SVreX: Look, I know this place has become increasingly hostile to all but the most right-wing views lately....

No joke. This place is actually beginning to sound a lot like Free Republic and I am getting tired of it. It really makes me wonder if the advertisers of this magazine realize that they are supporting what is turning into a hate board and what that means. I am a political moderate who sometimes votes on the Republican side of the aisle and I try to see both sides of an issue but some of the things I see written here are so extreme that they are scary. I remember seeing a campaign stop with either Rick Perry or Mitt Romney where somebody in the crowd said that a young person who didn't buy health insurance deserves to die if they are in an accident and didn't have coverage and the Republican candidate was kind of shocked when the rest of the crowd supported this person and applauded. I remember seeing the exact same sentiments written right here on this board with just about as much hatred and enthusiasm. I understand how that candidate feels about the angry mob.

I may be done here.

Hmmm... you started the "Teach them to fish.." line, but want to call me a hater when I don't want to give them a fish???

Sir, call it what you want. I firmly believe that it is a far greater love to teach responsibility then to give handouts. That's why I spent 10 years volunteering for Habitat for Humanity.

Giving out handouts and failing to encourage people to rise above their bad circumstances is a cruel, and deceptive form of captivity and enslavement for political agenda and power, spun as fake compassion.

I've never owned a BMW, never made more than $50K in one year, spent more than a decade volunteering for poor families, been on the front lines of more than a dozen national disaster response teams, I was smuggling food and medical supplies into Haiti after the earthquake in small planes, but I have no compassion. I am a hater.

I keep learning more and more about myself in this thread. It's truly amazing.

I admire your work with dogs. I've done some animal rescue too (though certainly nothing like you have). I also admire that you have acted responsibly in the decisions in your own life.

So, there you have it. I admire you, and I'm a hater. Go figure!

SVreX wrote: Hmmm... you started the "Teach them to fish.." line, but want to call me a hater when I don't want to give them a fish??? Sir, call it what you want. I firmly believe that it is a far greater love to teach responsibility then to give handouts. That's why I spent 10 years volunteering for Habitat for Humanity. Giving out handouts and failing to encourage people to rise above their bad circumstances is a cruel, and deceptive form of captivity and enslavement for political agenda and power, spun as fake compassion. I've never owned a BMW, never made more than $50K in one year, spent more than a decade volunteering for poor families, been on the front lines of more than a dozen national disaster response teams, I was smuggling food and medical supplies into Haiti after the earthquake in small planes, but I have no compassion. I am a hater. I keep learning more and more about myself in this thread. It's truly amazing. I admire your work with dogs. I've done some animal rescue too (though certainly nothing like you have). I also admire that you have acted responsibly in the decisions in your own life. So, there you have it. I admire you, and I'm a hater. Go figure!

To be clear, the posts here that shocked me with the amount of hatred involved were not yours, nor were they in this thread but I do see stuff that really bothers me here and I usually do not participate or respond to those threads. I saw something last week about teachers that highly offended me because my 80 year old mother just happens to be a teacher and a very good one. She was California Teacher of the Year (Yeah, yeah, I know. You guys all hate California and want it to fall into the sea.) back in the late 70s and continued to work as a substitute up until last year when she was 79. I honestly wanted to hunt the guy who made that post down and deck him. Instead, I logged and cooled off. But I really am getting tired of crap like this.

Hey. If you guys from the right want to shut down the post office, do nasty things to teachers, slaughter government employees and laugh when people without health insurance die in the gutter in front of the hospital, go right ahead. You only have yourself and whatever god you worship to answer to. Just don't expect me to join your angry mob or want to have anything to do with you.

Doggie, I don't know where you are coming from.

If that was intended to be an apology, it was frankly completely lame.

I don't know how you possibly manage to say something like this in DIRECT RESPONSE TO ME:

Snowdoggie wrote: The one thing that I have that you and your hater friends don't have is compassion.

...then try to claim that my posts were not the ones that offended.

Name calling and backpedaling will get you no where.

I'm afraid you have completely lost credibility with me.

Snowdoggie wrote:

Josh wrote: In reply to SVreX: Look, I know this place has become increasingly hostile to all but the most right-wing views lately....

No joke. This place is actually beginning to sound a lot like Free Republic and I am getting tired of it.

Same here. This is why I try to avoid the politics.

On a side note, what happened to our most liberal poster, Iggy?

I think that Iggy was asked to leave. Fwiw, I miss him.

Fwiw, so do I.

He stretched my thinking.

Though, he had gotten pretty ugly at the end. I was concerned.

I was out of work in 1982. 13 months. I worked under the table, got help from family and church. I collected unemployement, $233.00 a week. Alot of people were unemployed at the time. I finally got back to work for $3.00 less an hour. Its hard to be simpathetic to the people that step up to the mic. They do seem like whiners. I dont think they want to face the truth. Life is hard sometimes. Sometims its harder. It can even damage self worth. I keep thinking things will get better. I hope. Now my kids are experiencing some hardships. I am backing off on my car hoby related plans. FWIW, I have always been a dreamer. I am done with my rant.

Snowdoggie wrote: Hey. If you guys from the right want to shut down the post office, do nasty things to teachers, slaughter government employees and laugh when people without health insurance die in the gutter in front of the hospital, go right ahead. You only have yourself and whatever god you worship to answer to. Just don't expect me to join your angry mob or want to have anything to do with you.

This kinda thing is the exact that is so wrong with politics right now. Rather then have a intelligent discussion we get into name calling. All conservatives are blood thirsty uncaring bastards and all liberals are socialist American hating hippies. Maybe there has been some somewhat strong language about the OWS people but I don't think anyone on this board is uncaring. We all just have different views on how to deal with the nation. Some people want less government. Why does that make them uncaring? I thought for the most part we were having an ok discussion.

Snowdoggie wrote: ...so what about the the University who promised to teach them to fish and didn't do the job, or what about the situation where there are no fish to catch. Life experience from 20 years ago doesn't prepare you for the current situation. A college education is more expensive now than it ever has been, white collar jobs are being outsourced and you have to fight immigrants both legal and illegal for jobs that don't require a college degree. Yeah. I'm sure that you heard about somebody on a radio show who paid off $100,000 in credit card debt in 5 years by clipping coupons and driving a 10 year old car. But that person who did that already had a job, experience and a house he bought in 1981 at 1981 prices. How does that help somebody who just graduated in 2011 with student loan debt in the current job situation. Should they sell their blood to pay the bankers? These are not families. These are young single college graduates with no job experience. I heard one woman state that nobody would marry her with her debt. It's hard to be judgmental when you are not in that person's shoes. And quite honestly, I'm not sure what you are teaching these students other than to become debt slaves. It's not like any of them are going to go back and borrow a whole bunch of money to do college over again if they get a cut in their interest rate or get to pay a payment in line with their income, or have part of their loan written off.

Honestly, it sounds like you're blowing the situation WAY out of proportion. We're talking the difference between rice and beans and steak here. We're not talking about mixing mud with ketchup for dinner or living in a tin shack. That's why there's so many people willing to risk their lives to get to this country, legally or illegally.

If a family of 5 can blow through $30k of debt on 1 income, then a single person with $100k of debt can blow through that in a reasonable amount of time if he lives frugally. Young single college grads don't have to pay for children, they likely don't have a mortgage, and they can share living expenses with roommates or family. It doesn't take a rocket scientist, just a willingness to sacrifice. The young person is just as able to clip coupons and sacrifice as the family who did so.

I've been unemployed twice for six months at a time, just out of college. Sound familiar? Little to no experience, over $40k of debt, and an unfavorable job marketplace (thank you dot-com tech bubble!). When that happened, I spent as little money as I could until I found a job. When I did, I started paying off debt. You can too.

To get to my other point, the government is not a person. You and I have the obligation to feed the poor, tend to the sick, etc. We do that as a free act of love to our fellow man. When the government tries to feed the poor, etc, it does it forces others to support its actions unwillingly (via taxation to pay for it) and removes the free act of love from the equation. It becomes a government handout instead. Free act of love vs government handout. I know which one I'd rather on either end (giver or receiver).

Also, life experience is always helpful. Sure a particular technology might change, but the nature of man and the laws of nature don't. If you don't profit from your education, frankly, that's your fault.

93EXCivic wrote: I thought for the most part we were having an ok discussion.

this...Im not sure whats happening here.

I have some strong opinions, but Im also willing to see both sides of an argument. I dont care for a lot of politics, but I have that view of both parties.

We can all agree, our system needs to be edited for content and to run in the time allowed. But it has been in a state of transition since it was created.

What really should change are the elected officials. Im not going to list the things I think about the current admin, the current candidates, or the current legislature. They all pretty much suck.

I think the other thing we can all agree on is that this forum is probably the best on the internet that any of us are a part of. Politics aside, I think this group is pretty great. We self police (for the most part), we come together when there is need (Miata hardtop and AWD Fiero Hybrid to name a few), and we all have a passion for wonky automobiles...a difference in opinion is just that, a difference. Same as I have black hair and so and so may have red...just a difference. Lets remember that.

4cylndrfury wrote:

Bobzilla wrote: I think what burns me the most is I have more real world experience than 95% of the management coming out of our colleges and I will never be looked at as management type material because I lack a degree. Because somehow, that magic piece of paper makes me more intelligent. Never mind the fact that I voluntarily take any classes, online webinars etc that I can get my hands on to further my own knowledge and how to properly take car of my customers and expand my knowledge of our product line. I also can handle most of the customer issues better than they will ever think about because of my experience in dealing with the public and being in multiple positions throughout my life. But because I don't have that degree, I am dumb.

Bob, regardless of the back and forth you and I may have had in this thread before, your post is pretty much exactly my point...now expand on that idea: that paper degree is useless - its a tool that HR folks use to "weed out the lesser candidates", except having a degree, as you just said, makes you no better a candidate than a degree-less candidate. Its not doing its job in as much as its supposed to teach you how to be better at the profession you just learned about. but I guess Ive changed my mind a bit...its not guaranteeing you anything, just getting that paper. Its your job to determine whether or not the formula works for you...degree *x* times cost *y* divided by likelihood of employment *a* times potential salary *b* yadda yadd...I guess you have to do your own math, and thats where the responsibility bit kicks in. The university isnt telling you that you must undertake a specific major, and no one is tellign you which university you must attend. Im willing to concede that I hadnt really taken off my pissed-off-youth colored glasses, and really assessed my role in the equation. I still think theres a lot about the whole higher-ed system that sucks, royally. But I also see that I have a lot of options once I sit down and really weigh the factors.

And that is all I am trying to say. There ARE options. They may not be what you wanted, but they are there an they are a stepping stone to where you want to be. Does it suck that I wasn't born rich, good looking and hung like a mule? Absolutely. But I can work around that and still have a great life that I am proud of without a handout.

Stepping back, I think that here's my real issue with it:

I feel like I went through exactly the same thing ten years ago, and I thrived despite the conditions. I also learned a lot about life in that time too. So, I'm really wondering why the heck they're complaining so vocally. It doesn't look that bad from here.

Snowdoggie wrote: > To be clear, the posts here that shocked me with the amount of hatred involved were not yours, nor were they in this thread but I do see stuff that really bothers me here and I usually do not participate or respond to those threads.

Then I suggest you leave it in those threads. Name calling and the like is rude, impolite and NOT what this site is about. We were having a decent conversation until you decided to throw your anti-right hatred into this thread. PLease leave that for another forum.

scardeal wrote: Stepping back, I think that here's my real issue with it: I feel like I went through exactly the same thing ten years ago, and I thrived despite the conditions. I also learned a lot about life in that time too. So, I'm really wondering why the heck they're complaining so vocally. It doesn't look that bad from here.

Ditto. I did the same.... once 15 years ago, and again 10 years ago. I learned from my mistakes, I learned a lot about life that no school will ever teach, I learned how to be a better PERSON and more responsible for my actions. I learned that when you have a decent job, you can't piss away every paycheck on stupid stuff and not save a penny because that job can leave you at a moments notice.

That learning I did during that time also led me to the best thing to ever happen to me.... my wife. Had I have met her a year sooner, we would not be together, married and happy. 12 months sooner I was cocky, arrogant and irresponsible. I needed that last kick in the nutsack to realize that I do NOT know as much as I thought I did, I am NOT god's gift to life and I need to figure out how to live within my means.

I called it "growing up".... but the OWS crowd will never do that the way they are going about it.

Snowdoggie wrote:

SVreX wrote: Hmmm... you started the "Teach them to fish.." line, but want to call me a hater when I don't want to give them a fish??? Sir, call it what you want. I firmly believe that it is a far greater love to teach responsibility then to give handouts. That's why I spent 10 years volunteering for Habitat for Humanity. Giving out handouts and failing to encourage people to rise above their bad circumstances is a cruel, and deceptive form of captivity and enslavement for political agenda and power, spun as fake compassion. I've never owned a BMW, never made more than $50K in one year, spent more than a decade volunteering for poor families, been on the front lines of more than a dozen national disaster response teams, I was smuggling food and medical supplies into Haiti after the earthquake in small planes, but I have no compassion. I am a hater. I keep learning more and more about myself in this thread. It's truly amazing. I admire your work with dogs. I've done some animal rescue too (though certainly nothing like you have). I also admire that you have acted responsibly in the decisions in your own life. So, there you have it. I admire you, and I'm a hater. Go figure!

To be clear, the posts here that shocked me with the amount of hatred involved were not yours, nor were they in this thread but I do see stuff that really bothers me here and I usually do not participate or respond to those threads. I saw something last week about teachers that highly offended me because my 80 year old mother just happens to be a teacher and a very good one. She was California Teacher of the Year (Yeah, yeah, I know. You guys all hate California and want it to fall into the sea.) back in the late 70s and continued to work as a substitute up until last year when she was 79. I honestly wanted to hunt the guy who made that post down and deck him. Instead, I logged and cooled off. But I really am getting tired of crap like this. Hey. If you guys from the right want to shut down the post office, do nasty things to teachers, slaughter government employees and laugh when people without health insurance die in the gutter in front of the hospital, go right ahead. You only have yourself and whatever god you worship to answer to. Just don't expect me to join your angry mob or want to have anything to do with you.

OK, I went through and re-readthis entire thread and the only "hate" I am seeing is coming frm the same person, over and over. You.

I hope the various tantrums have played out; the left vs right crap is a red herring.

This discussion is based around realism and idealism. Most everyone here has experienced the transition; some haven't. The latter are more frustrated than the former and it shows, but not in the most flattering of ways.

Josh wrote: There were many posters using similar "if you studied something that isn't in economic demand, then quit whining, you deserve to be unemployed" arguments, but I was speaking a bit more generally rather than to anyone in particular. My point is just that this movement is as much cultural as it is economic. If you're looking at it purely as a bunch of people who are asking for a handout, you're not paying attention. At some level it's also about trying to shift government's focus toward doing what's best for people rather than letting everything be ruled by money.

The problem with trying to assert this angle leaves the door wide open for interpretive thought on people's varying interests in the federal government 'taking care' of people. There certainly is no shortage of people who think the government is taking care of enough, and trying to appeal on behalf of this movement by using that POV isn't going to be very effective.

let's say you're an artist, or a scholar, or an educator, or any number of other capable individuals, doing the sorts of things humans have been doing for centuries, whose place in society are often dependent on resources being allocated toward their work in *contradiction* of pure economic logic. Things are not going so well for you right now - but there's more than one way that can change. You might be able to find a way to get someone in the free market to pay you for your skills, but you might not. The free market doesn't value every pursuit, but that doesn't necessarily mean that those pursuits have no societal value. You've got the government telling you that there's *just not enough money* to pay for art teachers or a symphony orchestra or NASA or whatever, because those things aren't deemed "essential", while at the same time they're spending like mad on wars and bank bailouts, and the wealthiest people have the greatest proportional wealth *and* the lowest tax rates that they've had in any of our lifetimes.

Without getting into the seperate discussion of WHAT the government is spending money on, there is a problem with trying to dismiss the idea that a budget should be adhered to, otherwise we're simply baseless society with no culture. Thats a spurious association at best when so much of our economy IS culture driven, not production driven.

It IS entitlement when you say there should be money spent on your own local theatre troop that can't fill a row of seats instead of something else in the government, even though there is an existing private theatre group selling tickes and doing just fine. Thats no different than being selfish because the music YOU want to make isn't in demand. People who do this are making a strawman untennable leap of logic. And this is completely irrespective of the current spending attitude of the government.

"I'm a trumpet player who plays jazz, and I can't make any money." "The guitarist in the rock band around the corner is doing okay." "Yeah, but thats not important to me. I want to play my music my way and the government should pay me to do it." "Why should it do that? It won't change anything or make your music more popular." "If you don't support the government giving me money, then you're against the arts! You soul-less, greedy, evil person who wants all culture to die." "...you're saying I don't support any culture....because I don't like the music that YOU play?" "Yes... I mean, No, I mean.... the music that is popular is only popular because of corporate greed! its a placebo! Its not real culture! The government should give me money to be fair, my music is just as important!"

I don't see people dismissing the arts in this thread, I see people who are telling those pursuing arts to not have an unrealistic expectation of what it can do for them.

last example: Steve Jobs. There is much to dislike about how he lived his life. But in college, he abandoned the graduation program to study courses that he liked exclusively, like Calligraphy. He also slept on friend's sofas for almost 3 years. There is always a cost to do what you want. He walked the walk. Most just talk the talk.

madmallard wrote: last example: Steve Jobs. There is much to dislike about how he lived his life. But in college, he abandoned the graduation program to study courses that he liked exclusively, like Calligraphy. He also slept on friend's sofas for almost 3 years. There is always a cost to do what you want. He walked the walk. Most just talk the talk.

I loved your post. One thing I want to add to the bit about Steve Jobs - at some point during the hoopla over his passing, a local talk radio show interviewed someone who was part of the group that initially started whatever-the-company was (was apple first?) that he started to give the bird to IBM. This guy knew Steve well and they were consultants for each other back and forth throughout their careers. The guy was asked what guidelines Steve used when making business decisions since everything he touched seemed to turn to gold. The guy said Steves first and foremost insight was his ability to choose the right people. He rarely if ever looked at their schoolastic career. He always wanted to look at their body of work. THe guy went on to say that Steve held almost no regard for Americas higher education system. Apparently, Steve was known in circles for literally havign Hired a clown into a relatively high ranking position inside Apple in their marketing department after having seen the guy on the street. The clown was able to walk into a town square and Pull people away from vendors and other "legit" business ventures, and within minutes, was able to get them to give him money for his performance. Steve valued his ability to convince people that the product he was offering was of a greater value than the items for sale in the shops. Steve saw that ability, and recognized the value it held for his company, and hired the guy over other candidates with uber degrees from Ivy League U.

That needs to happen more. Im not going to say that theres Govt regs that need to happen, Im just saying I wish HR peeps didnt use a Degree as a measuring stick when clearly there are many cases where it is not.

I understand your frustration, and share it too.

But at the same time, its the company's choice/responsibility to operate that way.

I hold no animosity towards them. I'm not sure I agree with them. I think it's probably good that they're out there shouting and making idiots of themselves. It's attracting attention to some issues and inequalities in our society that people need to think about what, if anything, we need to do about them.

They are angry about people getting thrown under the bus and told that it's their own fault while the people who shoved them under are not only not held accountable, but rewarded for their actions.

I'm angry about that too, even though I don't expect that I should get a handout because some E36 M3-bag CEO got one.

They've managed to make enough noise that other people are starting to say, "They're kind of right. I'm pissed about some of these things too." If our society decides it's the right thing, this will create some political movement. Nowhere near what these people want, but in that direction in a healthily moderate amount.

I don't want them to get all their (disparate) demands. I do think our society needs to take a close look at and address some of the things they're shouting about.