Dealer service rep tried to pull a fast one.

Basil Exposition wrote: In reply to DrBoost: Thanks, and while we are on (or off) the subject, my Dodge Ram pads have a bevel on both the leading and trailing edges. They've also got the fingernail wear indicators, so I don't think the bevels are wear indicators. What are the purpose of those? Perhaps to prevent the edges cracking under heat?

I've heard different reasons for those bevels. The one that makes the most sense is that when the brake pad wears you lose breaking ability because of either reduced heat sink capabilities and the bevels are to introduce more friction material as the pad wears. I don't really buy it though, why not just have 100% contact from day one? The only thing I know is that when customers insist on buying the cheap-o auto'riley brake pads they squeal more often. I noticed the cheap pads don't have the bevel, more expensive ones do. I started putting a bevel on them and the squealing went away on the cheap junk. I have a feeling it's about dealing with brake dust and/or gas?

I think I read it was for squeaking also, Boost.

DrBoost wrote:

dculberson wrote: If all the pads are as thick as in OP's picture, then the car must ship with the pads 50% worn. Those are healthy pads with many thousands of miles left.

Sorry, stoopid statement. If I tell the customer they have X,XXX miles left and they experience a failure, guess who's going to court? Guess who's going to pay for life? Yup, the guy dumb enough to essentially guarantee how many miles you can drive with no problems. The only issue I see (but we have only a very small slice of the story) with the original repair recommendation is that the tech gave a percentage. I don't know how much material it had. But lots of guys do that.

This is true. Every day I get the 'how long will it last?' question. My stock answer: I don't know for sure but I can promise you it won't be much longer.

Sometimes it's tough trying to translate. In July I had a college girl with maybe 3/32 of tire tread left. Tiger Mom comes in at pickup time and asks how long will they go? I say maybe 5-6k miles IF she is lucky. Tiger Mom says will they last till Christmas? I say again, nicely, maybe 5-6k miles. She snarls 'will they last till Christmas?' and now it's time to explain 'it depends on your daughter's driving habits'. Of course that means the fat gray haired service guy is being a dick because he won't give a yes/no answer to Tiger Mom.

If he said 10 to 20% left, that could be 10 to 20% to the min thickness, which if that equal to the backing plate thickness it may be close. $1k does seem high though.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson:

Go back and look at my post showing list prices and labor times for brakes for the Hyundai's. ~$1000 to do 4 rotors, pads and a flush is close, depending on the shop labor rate. Hell, I've seen Mieneke bills (on a car WE had to fix because they installed the pads backwards, backing plate against the rotor) that was $1200 to do frt/rr pads($7 each set their cost), rotors($12 each their cost) and 4 calipers($19 each their cost) using cheap E36 M3. You want to talk about rip off artists...

I always wondered why my brake jobs take so much longer than the other guys on the internet, but after reading some of the posts I feel better. I'm not a pro, but I do take my time, clean everything, grease the slides, etc. I never try to be in a rush when I'm dealing with brakes.

I think that dealer labor costs are pretty reasonable, it's the parts costs when you're having work done there that get outrageous. I'd be happy to pay the internet parts price + 10%, plus the dealer labor rate. But, I understand that they're making significant money on the parts.

One of the dealers we go to gave good guidance about the brakes, they would say something like "they're fine for right now, but you might want to consider replacing them in the not-so-distant future." They also gave measurements in mm, so I knew where they were. The way they worded it sounded like they were being helpful, which I appreciated. I felt like I always got the same advice I would tell my wife if I looked at the brakes during an oil change, tire rotation, etc. I realize that's not every dealership, but there are some good ones out there. This particular dealership was pretty reasonable in terms of their parts prices, as well, and they usually have coupons or specials for 10-15% off their work.

dj06482 wrote: I always wondered why my brake jobs take so much longer than the other guys on the internet, but after reading some of the posts I feel better. I'm not a pro, but I do take my time, clean everything, grease the slides, etc. I never try to be in a rush when I'm dealing with brakes. I think that dealer labor costs are pretty reasonable, it's the parts costs when you're having work done there that get outrageous. I'd be happy to pay the internet parts price + 10%, plus the dealer labor rate. But, I understand that they're making significant money on the parts. One of the dealers we go to gave good guidance about the brakes, they would say something like "they're fine for right now, but you might want to consider replacing them in the not-so-distant future." They also gave measurements in mm, so I knew where they were. The way they worded it sounded like they were being helpful, which I appreciated. I felt like I always got the same advice I would tell my wife if I looked at the brakes during an oil change, tire rotation, etc. I realize that's not every dealership, but there are some good ones out there. This particular dealership was pretty reasonable in terms of their parts prices, as well, and they usually have coupons or specials for 10-15% off their work.

You have that 100% backwards. We make have between 40-80% markup on most maintenance parts over cost. It's the labor that is high priced. $100+/hour is the going rate here. Things like oil changes, we might make $3-4 in profit on the parts. Brake pads? Those $68 brake pads from Hyundai cost the dealer ~$39 to buy from Hyundai. Compare that to the parts store that pays ~$7-9 for the cheaper pads that they sell for $29.Or places like Meineke/Midas that get their pads/rotors at a predetermined price that is absolutely ridiculous and then mark it up 400%

EDIT: Now the manufacturer makes a pretty penny on the markup. I had heard rumors that the manufacturers pay between $5-10 to manufacture and package a set of brake pads. Then they sell them to the dealers for a 400% markup, set an MSRP that keeps the dealer from making much profit etc.

DrBoost wrote: The industry standard for brake pad replacement is when the friction material is the same thickness as the backing plate. There’s a few reasons for this, mainly because at that point the friction material will tend to overheat quickly. When that happens the friction material tends to break away from the backing plate.

Pads are measured for thickness, it has nothing to do with the size of the backing plate. Some people like to use a micrometer but I find it easier to eye-ball it with an assortment of coins. Personally, I run street pads down to 1mm if the rotors need to be replaced anyway. I've only had pads "break away" when run under minimal thickness in racing conditions, never during street use.

Datsun1500 wrote: Anyone spec out the pads yet to see what they measure now? I am really curious if it is within the recommended replacement specs. I don't want to clutter up the "bash the dealer thread" with facts though...

In the interest of science I'll mic the brake pads this weekend. Not sure how I'll explain to my wife why I need to pull the wheels off her car again.

Still no phone call from the dealer service manager. I was promised emphatically a return phone call by either yesterday or today. We shall see.

DrBoost wrote:

dculberson wrote: If all the pads are as thick as in OP's picture, then the car must ship with the pads 50% worn. Those are healthy pads with many thousands of miles left.

Sorry, stoopid statement. If I tell the customer they have X,XXX miles left and they experience a failure, guess who's going to court? Guess who's going to pay for life? Yup, the guy dumb enough to essentially guarantee how many miles you can drive with no problems. The only issue I see (but we have only a very small slice of the story) with the original repair recommendation is that the tech gave a percentage. I don't know how much material it had. But lots of guys do that.

Sorry, you're ignoring the situation at hand. He didn't ask them to give them a number of miles left on the pads, he didn't ask them to assess the brakes, they were doing a TPMS service and the shop claimed that the brakes were almost worn out. They took it upon themselves to offer that according to what we know from this thread. "Stooooopid statements." Leave that E36 M3 elsewhere.

DrBoost wrote: You guys kill me. The industry standard for brake pad replacement is when the friction material is the same thickness as the backing plate. There’s a few reasons for this, mainly because at that point the friction material will tend to overheat quickly. When that happens the friction material tends to break away from the backing plate, or it will cleave chunks off. Those pads are thinner than the backing plate. I’d recommend replacement as well. You can say that they still have enough material on them. Well, that's not our call. We have no idea how you drive. That amount of friction material could last the little old lady another year, but the guy that autocrosses or drives like an idiot may be metal-to-metal in a week. We follow the industry standard. The rears are thicker (the OP says) but we can’t see how much. I don’t know what all is included in that thousand dollars, but I bet it’s a heckuva lot more than the fabled ‘I can do that in my garage with pliers and a beer in an hour per axle’ people always throw around on forums. In that hour are you pulling the slides/pins out to clean and lube them? Naturally you are. Are you taking a ‘cookie’ to the hubs before reinstalling the rotors, with a little anti-seize to prevent them from getting stuck in the future? Of course. Are you inspecting every inch of brake line and hose while you’re under there? Yes, even though you can’t get under there in your garage. I can’t comment on the price because it’s very regional. What they’d charge in Manhattan is way different than what they’d charge in Boise Idaho. Most techs I know have a list of customer names or license plate numbers in our box. Those are the DBs that piss and moan and whine to the service manager every time I do my job and recommend work that NEEDS to be done. When your car comes in, I will take my time getting to it, and I won’t look at a single thing that’s not on the work order. If I’m doing a recall on the TPS and notice the throttle body is nasty, I’m not even going to wipe the heavy crap from the butterfly blade unless it’s called out in the recall. We routinely do extra stuff that’s not on the repair order because it’s just what we do, we fix stuff. For DBs that try to get me in hot water for RECOMMENDING things to be done, we just kinda let you to your own (usually subpar) skills and abilities. Another thing to understand. The tech typically writes only part of the estimate. Parts and labor. The parts are dictated by the dealership, the labor is dictated by an industry standard book. The service writer starts tacking on things like “misc. supplies” and literally plopping 10% or more on top of it all because he’s working on commission. The tech is working by the job. Sorry, I just get so sick and tired of people here, and other places whine about how mechanics are crooks and how they can to the job better in less time. Then you see threads asking how to do this or that, from stripped lug nuts to odd electrical gremlins. But the tech that handles these day in and day out are meatheads that just try to victimize women. Yeah, like we even see the customer!

So then when you get a set of OEM replacement pads from the manufacturer that aren't as thick as the backing plate should they then replace right at that instant of replacement on a daily basis? If it is an industry standard then why isn't the squealer set to start making noise at that range of thickness? I can't believe more people aren't calling shenanigans on this. You must be a salesmen of some sort.

Just guessing, those pads aren't at "10-20%" of the 10mm as the dealer stated. The term "ASAP" IMPLIES it's a safety hazard. It isn't a safety hazard in the near future. So, the suggested "you should think about replacing them soon" would have been more appropriate and professional. The last time I had a mechanic talk to me about brakes he stated the remaining pads as "XXX hours" of driving left. I went home and did the brakes myself. (I've got more time/tools than money) As far as the value of the service of replacing pads, calipers, rotors, and a bleed, it sure seems darn close to appropriate.

If those were on a newer BMW you would have already hit the brake lining sensors and you would have a bright orange warning on your dash telling you the world is coming to an end. I've seen some that hit the sensor at 50%. I would personally milk them a bit longer if there wasn't a warning on the dash though.

That's why I take the BMW pad wear sensors and zip tie them out of the way, problem solved!

If that was my car I would feel comfortable with them for another 15-20k miles judging from that picture. But I'm very easy on brakes, I tend not to use them because they only slow you down

DaveEstey wrote: If that's only 10-20% of the pad left they must have been some damn thick pads when new!

I don't feel like net-stalking (that's creepy) so with a few quick assumptions I'm going to assume that it's a 4-cylinder Sonata.

Pad thickness for the fronts is, according my my information, 11mm new, and service limit is "3-4mm". That is the friction material only, not including the backing plate.

So if new is 11 and worn out is 3mm (let's go for the minimum) then that is 8mm of usable pad material. So every 10% is .8mm. 10-20% remaining would be 3.8-4.6mm at the most optimistic.

OEMs don't want you to run the pads down to the rivets, as the last few mm of pad life is usually cut short by the pads disintegrating within a very short period of time. Thus 3-4mm of pad is considered to be completely worn out.

Alright, I found the service limit of the brake pads is 2mm.

http://www.hsfmanual.com/front_disc_brake_repair_procedures-523.html

I don't think I'm down that low.

Knurled wrote:

DaveEstey wrote: If that's only 10-20% of the pad left they must have been some damn thick pads when new!

I don't feel like net-stalking (that's creepy) so with a few quick assumptions I'm going to assume that it's a 4-cylinder Sonata. Pad thickness for the fronts is, according my my information, 11mm new, and service limit is "3-4mm". That is the friction material only, not including the backing plate. So if new is 11 and worn out is 3mm (let's go for the minimum) then that is 8mm of usable pad material. So every 10% is .8mm. 10-20% remaining would be 3.8-4.6mm at the most optimistic. OEMs don't want you to run the pads down to the rivets, as the last few mm of pad life is usually cut short by the pads disintegrating within a very short period of time. Thus 3-4mm of pad is considered to be completely worn out.

That picture the OP posted is about 9-10mm at least. Go measure 3-4mm on a ruler, not cm, mm.

I am going to threadjack this right here...

I took my Mazda RX7 in to the dealership because I had a stuck caliper. I didn't realize that was the issue (I was 17 and didn't know much about trouble-shooting cars at the time).

They wrote down my address, mileage, type of car, vin, etc...

For the next two years I got notes in teh mail like: It is time for your 115,000 mile service. it is time for your oil change, etc...

The one that got me was the one that said I could get 10% off my timing belt change that was due at 125,000 miles.

I called and asked what all they would do during that service on my RX7. The nice person on teh phone went through all of these items. At the end, I asked if they knew that an RX7 doesn't have a timing belt. I got silence from the phone. I asked what would have happened had I brought the car in. Silence. I asked if they pull this crap with everybody. Silence...

My parents have taken the car to the same dealership and recieved similar "service". They tried to say that surface rust on teh rotors requires replacement of the pads and rotors. My mother called the state police to find out if that was true (I am not sure I would have). Apparently, there was a notice sent out in PA that addressed this exact issue. It said that surface rust was allowed AND any shop that tried to sell a client new parts based on the surface rust would be "in trouble".

I heard the service managager got in trouble for that one.

Rob R.

The only thing that would enliven this thread more is if we started talking about giving less than 10/10 on a feedback survey.

I've gotten more honest recommendations from dealerships regarding service than I have from chain brand repair shops (Merchant's, etc.) when I've taken my car them- usually for tires, but even that seems to depend on the management of the place and what their corporate overlords are telling them to do at any given moment.

I give my money to a locally owned service shop run by a guy in my car club. They give me a really good shop rate, too ($60/hr) and only charge a marginal markup on the parts. I've seen/heard what they charge other people, though- ouch, but they've got the reputation to do it, too.

Well, it seems that I won't be hearing from the service department manager today as she has already left. So much for her promise to call me back by Friday. I went ahead and sent her an email letting her know I was mildly disappointed.

Thanks for reminding me about the feedback survey. I know they don't want you to put anything less than perfect scores on those, so that might be some leverage.

Bobzilla wrote: You have that 100% backwards. We make have between 40-80% markup on most maintenance parts over cost. It's the labor that is high priced. $100+/hour is the going rate here. Things like oil changes, we might make $3-4 in profit on the parts. Brake pads? Those $68 brake pads from Hyundai cost the dealer ~$39 to buy from Hyundai. Compare that to the parts store that pays ~$7-9 for the cheaper pads that they sell for $29.Or places like Meineke/Midas that get their pads/rotors at a predetermined price that is absolutely ridiculous and then mark it up 400% EDIT: Now the manufacturer makes a pretty penny on the markup. I had heard rumors that the manufacturers pay between $5-10 to manufacture and package a set of brake pads. Then they sell them to the dealers for a 400% markup, set an MSRP that keeps the dealer from making much profit etc.

The labor rate around here is basically the same across dealers, independents, etc. Aside from doing it yourself, you're going to have to pay someone to do the work, and for that $100/hr, I expect them to be pretty competent. It probably takes me 1.5 to 2 times what the tech takes to do the work. So, I'm saving something around $50-75 an hour if I'm doing the job myself. I don't have a lot of time, so regardless of what I make, that seems like a fair trade off, especially for a tougher job where I don't have the time/tools/ability to tackle it. So, I'm willing to eat the labor rate in return for having the dealer/indepedent take care of it.

A good example is ignition coils. They're $75 online, and $125 at the dealer (I can usually get 10% off of that, but can't always). Book labor is probably 1/2 hour, but it could be an hour. $50/labor and $125 parts = $175 to have one changed at the dealer. For me to do it myself (same part), it's <1/2 hour and $75 in cost. Makes sense to fix it myself in that case, as I'm not giving up much time, and I'm ahead $100. However, if the total cost at the dealer was closer to the $125 ($75 online part cost plus $50/labor), then I'd consider letting them fix it, especially if they make it convenient for me (loaner).

40-80% markup on an OEM part that I can get online for far less markup is tough to swallow in this day and age. As a result, I've tended to tackle more stuff myself. The labor rate, I'm willing to concede, but the part markup + the labor rate is more difficult to afford (and stomach). In general, the parts cost discrepancy becomes even bigger if I can use non-OEM parts for things like cabin filters where there are good aftermarket options.

slefain wrote: Well, it seems that I won't be hearing from the service department manager today as she has already left. So much for her promise to call me back by Friday. I went ahead and sent her an email letting her know I was mildly disappointed. Thanks for reminding me about the feedback survey. I know they don't want you to put anything less than perfect scores on those, so that might be some leverage.

Aaaand they're back in the game. Seems the service manager had to go see her realtor at the last minute. I've yet again been promised a call back by tomorrow to discuss the matter.

I mis spoke when i said industry standard, but I did explain that in a later post. I just get fed up with how people on here jump om dealer techs when they are totally ignorant of what happens atthe dealer or shop before you get that call. We all know everyone here can do a complete brake job on a gravel driveway for $20 and on 20 minutes (roll eyes).

DrBoost wrote: I mis spoke when i said industry standard, but I did explain that in a later post. I just get fed up with how people on here jump om dealer techs when they are totally ignorant of what happens atthe dealer or shop before you get that call. We all know everyone here can do a complete brake job on a gravel driveway for $20 and on 20 minutes (roll eyes).

nope … can't do that … but I can do sitting on my gravel driveway for a HELL of lot less than $1000