DIY Hydrogen Generators ?

Has anyone tried or even looked at these? A local guy was on the news here and claimed a honest 30-40% increase in gas mileage. I'm thinking of trying one. I think I'll try it on my sons' car first, unless one of youse guys want to try it. The units I'm looking at cost about $100-$200. Snake oil or something we should be playing with? http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/329904/hydrogen_gas_generator_for_your_car.html

I got into an argument with a guy who was talking about how fantastic these were because "you can fuel your car with water".

The problem is, of course, that it takes more energy to split hydrogen from water than you realize from recombusting it.

Understand that what you're actually doing with hydrogen is using it as a means for storing energy that was harnessed elsewhere.

Is this a more efficient way to store energy than using, a battery, or just paying for dyno-juice?

As for the actual mechanics of injecting hydrogen into a combustion chamber, I have no idea. If you can do it, I'm sure you'll be using less gasoline, but you'll still be consuming the energy used to split your hydrogen ions.

Yep. Pure bull cookies. You put X units of energy into splitting the Hydrogen and Oxygen and you get X-1 units of energy in return.

If you want Hydrogen power, get your energy from the sun.

If you just want electrical energy, build a good battery.

Ban Hydrogen-Dioxide

John Brown wrote: Ban Hydrogen-Dioxide

Technically, it's Hydrogen Hydroxide (one H ion bonded to one OH ion).

aka dihydrogen monoxide, or DHMO.

Thanks guys!

http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html

I've done a bit of calculations on the energy requirements - something it seems most of the "HHO" (I wonder if that stands for Hydrogen Hype Overpromisers?) websites seldom appear to do. Here's a couple of numbers to give you an idea of what you're up against.

1. To get the hydrogen equivalent of 1 gallon of gas, you need to split 2.2 (possibly more) gallons of water.

2. If you had a 100% efficient generator (that's pretty much mythical) and powered it with a gasoline engine that has a BSFC of 0.4 pounds per horsepower-hour, you'd burn 3.25 gallons of gas to get 1 "gas gallon equivalent" of hydrogen. Generating the hydrogen with a system powered by the car's electrical system is a no-win situation. Only the tiny size of most of the hydrogen generators out there save their owners from getting abysmally worse mileage than stock.

3. To generate the equivalent of 1 gallon of gas in one hour with electrical power and a (again mythical) 100% efficient generator would require around 37 kilowatts. Or 50 horsepower.

4. Equipment that draws several dozen kilowatts generally needs electrical cables as thick as my leg.

A real hydrogen generator is definitely something that takes careful sizing and careful attention to safety, and would be large enough to put a pretty big strain on your average household electrical system.

A buddy of mine who is an engineer is all fired up about doing this, to the point where he's bought some 3.25" diameter stainless tubing about maybe 3 feet long (he's done all sorts of calculations and he says that's actually bigger than he needs) and some of the other bits and pieces (bought plans off teh int3rweb). He was telling me about it, all excited, and I didn't want to pop his balloon, but I just had to ask how he was going to generate enough hydrogen to make a difference from a pipe that size. I was referring to the volume of hydrogen, not even asking about the rig's power requirements, and he says 'It'll work, dammit!'. Oooo kayy, better back off.

Guess this is the new global warming cult.

Jensenman wrote: A buddy of mine who is an engineer he says 'It'll work, dammit!'. Oooo kayy, better back off. Guess this is the new global warming cult.

Of course it will work (split water into hydrogen and oxygen).

And you can probably make your own gasoline from crude oil if you waste enough money and time.

You'll waste more energy and money either way than if you had just bought the end product from a local supplier.

Shawn

A person I know is working with Hydrogen tech, but his systems involve an H generator at home and soforth. They have converted several small IC engines to run on strait H. Crack the throtle on one of those, and it acts like you just went WOT. In the end it seams like you are robbing Peter to pay Paul. shrugs

neon4891 wrote: A person I know is working with Hydrogen tech, but his systems involve an H generator at home and soforth. They have converted several small IC engines to run on strait H. Crack the throtle on one of those, and it acts like you just went WOT. In the end it seams like you are robbing Peter to pay Paul. *shrugs*

"H generator"? What exactly does it generate the hydrogen from? Hopes and dreams? Almost certainly generates it from splitting water molecules. And it must use some form of energy to run.

Combusting 2H2 and O2 creates a really significant, powerful, and efficient explosion. But you have to split it first.

Why do all of these nuts drive TDI's...

Although, after reading the entire article... he's somewhat realistic about the whole thing... admits that in a typical computer controlled engine, gains will be marginal... and while gains may be greater in a less monitored engine, the risks of over-heating the engine increase dramatically... He saw a drop in MPG since the computer seemed to be dumping fuel into the combustion in an effort to keep the engine from overheating... If he had any real knowledge about modding a TDI and was willing to invest some money into the idea, then EGT monitoring and a custom chip-tune might yield better results. But unfortunately, these kooks always want to do things as cheaply as possible... note the WOOD used for mounting the generator to the radiator panel...

Salanis wrote: The problem is, of course, that it takes more energy to split hydrogen from water than you realize from recombusting it.

Not necessarily. If you had a 100% efficient electrolysis process (impossible, theoretical max is 70%) and a 100% efficient burning process (impossible as the theoretical max, again, is about 70%) then you would realize exactly the same amount of energy used to split it apart.

A guy who will soon be selling kits for this had us laser some parts out for him. He gave us a demonstration, where the highlight was that he could use a lighter to ignite the hydrogen, which made a "pop" noise. He didn't seem to realize that had nothing to do with his gas mileage, nor was I overly impressed with his knowledge of an internal combustion engine.

I've got some 3.25" stainless tubing laying around. Maybe I should start selling some "kits." How about $20/foot plus shipping? That's pretty reasonable for unlimited free energy. After all, laws were made to be broken, so who really cares about the First Law of Thermodynamics?

Dr. Hess wrote: I've got some 3.25" stainless tubing laying around. Maybe I should start selling some "kits." How about $20/foot plus shipping? That's pretty reasonable for unlimited free energy. After all, laws were made to be broken, so who really cares about the First Law of Thermodynamics?

Yeah, I was trying to point out to him (gently) that in order to produce enough hydrogen to make a measurable difference in the percentage going into the air intake that if the engine was drawing, say, 200 CFM through the intake the hydrogen generator would have to produce about 13.6 CFM (figuring the hydrogen as a complete replacement for gasoline rather than a supplement and figuring a similar 14:7-1 fuel/air ratio). You have to 1) carry enough water to be able to continually break it down and that's going to weigh a bunch. 2) figure the energy used to 'crack' the water has to come from somewhere meaning 3) you have to have an alternative energy source to run the 'catalyzer' (I think that's what it's called). Not to mention the 'catalyzer' has to really pump out the ol' hydrogen atoms for it to work and I did not see a CFM output rating anywhere in the stuff he showed me.

Or, you'd have to build a big 'un for home use, then pressurize and store the hydrogen for future use. Don't misunderstand, folks, this kind of stuff can be done (there are hydrogen refueling stations in LA already) but it's nowhere near as easy or practical for home use as those Web sites make it sound.

They guy that came by work and did the demo claimed 2L/min was his output. But that was 2L HH0, not straight hydrogen.

ProDarwin wrote: A guy who will soon be selling kits for this had us laser some parts out for him. He gave us a demonstration, where the highlight was that he could use a lighter to ignite the hydrogen, which made a "pop" noise. He didn't seem to realize that had nothing to do with his gas mileage, nor was I overly impressed with his knowledge of an internal combustion engine.

If he'd built one that was actually large enough to do any good, I'd dive under a desk as soon as he pulled out a lighter. Then send in a Darwin Award nomination for him as soon as my hearing came back.

MadScientistMatt wrote:

ProDarwin wrote: A guy who will soon be selling kits for this had us laser some parts out for him. He gave us a demonstration, where the highlight was that he could use a lighter to ignite the hydrogen, which made a "pop" noise. He didn't seem to realize that had nothing to do with his gas mileage, nor was I overly impressed with his knowledge of an internal combustion engine.

If he'd built one that was actually large enough to do any good, I'd dive under a desk as soon as he pulled out a lighter. Then send in a Darwin Award nomination for him as soon as my hearing came back.

Y'all might want to have him Google 'Hindenburg'.

If you saw this setup, you wouldn't be scared. It would need to run for hours and hours before creating enough to provide a deadly "pop". The though of it exploding under the hood of a test car is very amusing to me though.

Hehehe... I loved those experiments back in junior high, splitting water into two test tubes, then sticking a lighted match in each one. The tube with H2 went "BwoooOOOP!" and the tube with O2 went "FOOOOOSH!"

Or was this guy doing the junior high experiment with the Drain-O and tinfoil in a bottle. Cause then you can stick a balloon over the end and make your own mini Hindenberg!

Junior high science experiments were so much fun. It's good to know we have really smart people out there who can do these same experiments.

[edit... Wow, I managed to hit the wrong button and report myself. Eh, I probably deserved it. I do like where the "report" flag is moved to though. I just have to get used to it.]

Soo... one thing I haven't heard anyone mention here is the details with the electrolysis.

Has anyone else heard how the electrical energy requirements to separate the hydrogen is greatly reduced because of some some frequency applied to the signal?

Damn I wish I read that into more detail so I didn't sound like an idiot here, but for those of you who don't know, one of the 'selling points' with this system is that the electrolysis is performed using a small amount of energy by using some magic frequency that coaxes the atoms to separate.. or something. Oh yeah, and noone knows how it works, it just does :|

Supposedly.

I actually intended to test it this summer but my project car is being a huge piece of E36 M3 and wasting all my time. :)

I saw the system up close and personal... since the wires come directly from a large 12V DC battery, id say the "magic" frequency is actually 0 and not all that magic.

ProDarwin wrote: I saw the system up close and personal... since the wires come directly from a large 12V DC battery, id say the "magic" frequency is actually 0 and not all that magic.

So he was paying attention in junior-high science class.

Haha well no... the system I was reading about involved making a module which the 12v would go into and would emit a different electric signal to the electrodes.

I'm not saying it works! Just throwing it out there..