If the government is going after trucks for deleting emissions devices, can we go after harley riders for those incredibly loud exhaust systems that do not save lives?
If the government is going after trucks for deleting emissions devices, can we go after harley riders for those incredibly loud exhaust systems that do not save lives?
DrBoost said:If the government is going after trucks for deleting emissions devices, can we go after harley riders for those incredibly loud exhaust systems that do not save lives?
City governments have been doing it a for a while now.
Noise does not equal performance. If you can't be fast, just be annoying. Seems to apply to car guys too.
Efficient engines run clean. Efficient engines also make power, the two things go together. If your vehicle smokes or smells like a lawnmower, you're losing power too.
There's no reason to delete emissions control systems theses days other than being a douchebag. Manufacturers have gotten incredibly good at giving us power, reliability, low emissions AND fuel economy, all in the same vehicle. New cars are downright incredible.
Most of us should be old enough to remember wheezing, 150hp Corvettes from the late 70s and early 80's when horsepower took a holiday. Those are economy car numbers these days.
My 2019 Silverado claims to have 420hp. That's an unheard of number for trucks just ten years earlier that burn twice as much fuel.
All a tune really does these days is give you a bit more power at the expense of fuel economy, reliability or low emissions and it's not necessary.
I'd rather have my fun that let some mouth-breathing coal rollers ruin it for me.
It sounds like someone is preparing to run for office and needs a $2b win for the newspapers.
Ebay is stating that they stop 99%+ of the sales. That's pretty good for a company that sells something like 2 billion items a day. Instead of the DOJ and EPA stepping up and helping catch those circumventing the law, I find it interesting that they are fining a private entity for their own failures in doing their jobs. That's like holding a mall responsible because a retailer was selling something they shouldn't.
I am curious why the EPA and DOJ aren't going after the actual entities that are making the sales through their Ebay accounts. Could it be for $2b reasons?
I would like to know where the money from the fines goes as well.
DrBoost said:If the government is going after trucks for deleting emissions devices, can we go after harley riders for those incredibly loud exhaust systems that do not save lives?
Next time one of them says that loud pipes save lives just point out that if they are so concerned about safety why don't they wear a full face helmet.
In reference to the comments about eBay allowing/prohibiting items I just wanted to point out that there is a list they provide for exactly this https://pages.ebay.com/uk/help/policies/items-ov.html. I assume what is being discussed might fall under the one of these, and if not at least they are rather interesting reading to see what messes they already have dealt with.
OHSCrifle said:93gsxturbo said:So dumb.
First off, "rolling coal" isn't cool any more. Those videos are all compilations and stills from 10 years ago. Are there still some guys who do it, sure. But not like it was 10 years ago.
Secondly, all the so called "delete devices" and what-have-you are all readily available, just gotta know where to look. Just because its not on Ebay doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Lastly, this is a very slippery slope. Coal rollers are visible, and more often than not young kids who can't fight back. Oddly enough you don't hear a lot of anyone going after the Mustangs, Camaros, and BMWs running around with catless X pipes and cackle tunes. Catless X pipes are still readily available on Ebay, EGR blockoffs for diesels are not. Weird.
Did you know Ebay doesn't let you sell SCT programmers? Even though these can be used for non-nefarious purposes, they are blocked. Super dumb.
What do you mean "can't fight back"? Trying to understand this statement.
Billy Bob with his clapped out 2004 Superduty with a mismatched door running a canned tune with an EGR delete doesn't have the same level of financing and political influence that Jean-Pierre does with his UGR Twin Turbo Lambo. But they are both breaking the same laws. Billy Bob just has to choke on it. Jean-Pierre can pay his way to his desired results.
triumph7 said:DrBoost said:If the government is going after trucks for deleting emissions devices, can we go after harley riders for those incredibly loud exhaust systems that do not save lives?
Next time one of them says that loud pipes save lives just point out that if they are so concerned about safety why don't they wear a full face helmet.
In Texas helmets aren't required. Most non-helmet wearers I see seem to be middle aged guys on Harleys that don't know how to lean to turn, wear black clothing that doesn't stand out visibility wise, but have loud pipes and plenty chrome to save their lives.
Since people are being political, it's curious that enforcing the written law is seen as political. And most of the assumptions of what went on is based on that.
Some simple math, if eBay sells 2B things a day, and only .1% of those are illegal, that's 2M items every day. Or +700M annually. I bet it's less than that, but that is a whole lot of law breaking. For fun, let's say that it's only 20M a year. So a $2B settlement is just $100 per item. Extrapolating that to what eBay earns per item, that means the item is about $500 per in sales.
That hardly seems like a horrible fine when put into the scale of eBay.
Heck, it's probably closer to 2M sales annually, and the $2B is more to force them to do their jobs better. Factor in how long ebay has been making money selling defeat devices, this is a pretty small fine per item sold.
In reply to alfadriver :
The article states it is 343k items with a selling price of $200-$500 each. The DOJ is hitting them for $5500 for each occurrence.
If the DOJ/EPA knows how many sales, they know who the sellers are. Why go after the building owner instead of the people who are actually committing the crime. Oh yeah, that's where the $2b comes in.
In reply to alfadriver :
Section 230 will likely give eBay the immunity required to avoid any legal exposure in this. Amazon is going through the same thing right now with various products that when packaged together can be used for suicide and it looks pretty likely to prevail.
The sellers are a completely different story as they aren't covered by the blanket platform immunity Section 230 provides. So if eBay decides to name the sellers instead of fighting with the DOJ, the sellers are screwed. eBay technically doesn't have to name names under a certain threshold, unless they subpoenaed, but the INFORM act is there for larger sellers.
TechDirt had a pretty good segment explaining the entire suit and it's repercussions in conjunction with Owning the Box two weeks ago.
https://soundcloud.com/techdirt/liability-speech-marketplaces
Going after the sellers does indeed make more sense, however the modern world of Ebay and Amazon its incredibly tricky. I don't know the law behind it (reading into the above, thank you for posting info), but I imagine the reasoning has a lot to do with the fact that overseas sellers seem to be able to pop up a store overnight and disappear it in a week. How do you target a seller that is actually hundreds of sellers, but has no real presence in the US and borderline doesn't exist?
I can see how the middle ground would be: pass legislation that doesnt allow this, prevents this, or warns Ebay/Amazon/Etc. that they may be held accountable in these scenarios, instead of going right for the throat.
In reply to 93gsxturbo :
They aren't going after users. They are going after sellers and manufacturers.
Fueled by Caffeine said:In reply to 93gsxturbo :
They aren't going after users. They are going after sellers and manufacturers.
OK let me restate my concern in simpler terms.
Billy Bob buys parts from Ebay and installs them himself because thats what he can afford. Billy Bob can no longer buy certain parts from Ebay or Amazon.
Jean-Pierre has his new Lamborghini shipped to UGR and UGR takes care of installing all the geegaws, including the turbskis and the cat-delete exhaust. Doesn't matter if its legal or not, Jean-Pierre has his Lambo registered to his LLC in Montana through a shell company because his lawyer takes care of him.
Since this is Grassroots Motorsports, its safe to assume we are more Billy-Bob than Jean-Pierre and this is a very slippery slope that we should all be afraid of endorsing.
93gsxturbo said:Fueled by Caffeine said:In reply to 93gsxturbo :
They aren't going after users. They are going after sellers and manufacturers.
OK let me restate my concern in simpler terms.
Billy Bob buys parts from Ebay and installs them himself because thats what he can afford. Billy Bob can no longer buy certain parts from Ebay or Amazon.
Jean-Pierre has his new Lamborghini shipped to UGR and UGR takes care of installing all the geegaws, including the turbskis and the cat-delete exhaust. Doesn't matter if its legal or not, Jean-Pierre has his Lambo registered to his LLC in Montana through a shell company because his lawyer takes care of him.
Since this is Grassroots Motorsports, its safe to assume we are more Billy-Bob than Jean-Pierre and this is a very slippery slope that we should all be afraid of endorsing.
There are probably at least a hundred times more Billy-Bobs driving around than Jean-Pierres, so they have a larger, more widespread impact.
Federal agencies also have a recent history of going after shops (like UGR) too. They're a bigger, easier target than the individuals. They focused primarily on diesel tuning shops because of their impact on local air quality, but I remember some higher profile Honda tuners also had to pay some fines. As a taxpayer, I want my governmental agencies to be efficient with my tax dollars. Chasing individuals isn't the most efficient path. You go after those making, selling, or installing the parts first, and if there are too many of them, or they're outside of your jurisdiction, then you go after the marketplace.
Any shop that's still modifying emissions hardware or software without an EO is tempting fate and playing with fire. If they haven't learned their lesson after seeing other shops get hammered with fines in recent years, then I have zero pity for them. I also don't feel bad for Billy-Bob or Jean-Pierre for no longer having the same products or services available to them. Modern vehicles are better and more powerful than ever. If they want to modify emissions stuff, then the free market takes over. If there's a business case for emissions compliant parts then it will develop. If none of that is appealing, then buy a pre-emissions vehicle to tinker with.
The0retical said:In reply to alfadriver :
The sellers are a completely different story as they aren't covered by the blanket platform immunity Section 230 provides. So if eBay decides to name the sellers instead of fighting with the DOJ, the sellers are screwed.
And we all know how eBay stands by it's sellers lol.
93gsxturbo said:Fueled by Caffeine said:In reply to 93gsxturbo :
They aren't going after users. They are going after sellers and manufacturers.
OK let me restate my concern in simpler terms.
Billy Bob buys parts from Ebay and installs them himself because thats what he can afford. Billy Bob can no longer buy certain parts from Ebay or Amazon.
Jean-Pierre has his new Lamborghini shipped to UGR and UGR takes care of installing all the geegaws, including the turbskis and the cat-delete exhaust. Doesn't matter if its legal or not, Jean-Pierre has his Lambo registered to his LLC in Montana through a shell company because his lawyer takes care of him.
Since this is Grassroots Motorsports, its safe to assume we are more Billy-Bob than Jean-Pierre and this is a very slippery slope that we should all be afraid of endorsing.
Either way, the epa can only go after the sellers of the items. Does it really matter if we, as a community, are not allowed to buy illegal stuff? Again, we were given a lot of leeway for multiple decades until part of our community ruined it for everyone. It's never been legal to install defeat devices or tamper with emission control devices. So to think we had some kind of right to do what we do is incorrect.
Toyman! said:In reply to alfadriver :
The article states it is 343k items with a selling price of $200-$500 each. The DOJ is hitting them for $5500 for each occurrence.
If the DOJ/EPA knows how many sales, they know who the sellers are. Why go after the building owner instead of the people who are actually committing the crime. Oh yeah, that's where the $2b comes in.
Which tells me that they have asked eBay to police what they sell, and they have not.
Here is an alternate example- how many items of child pornograhy should eBay be allowed to sell without penalty? Should they be allowed to turn a blind eye because it's a handful of kids and pictures?
In reply to alfadriver :
Ebay is not the seller. They sell nothing but the use of a platform for others to use to sell a product.
Ebay is stopping 99.9% of sales of defeat devices. Why doesn't the EPA and DOJ get off their useless asses and do their jobs instead of making others do their job for them. Why is it OK for any agency to pass policing responsibility onto a private company.
Toyman! said:In reply to alfadriver :
.....
...Why is it OK for any agency to pass policing responsibility onto a private company.
I agree with you on most things, but I just can't get behind this thought.
Every gas station in the country is involved in "policing". They require you to show your ID before they sell you cigarettes. Liquor stores do too. We have already accepted that as a society. eBay is just a bigger player. They absolutely can shut down these sellers or prevent them from listing in the first place.
In reply to Indy - Guy :
You gas station analogy doesn't work. That is a transaction between a buyer and a seller.
Is the person who leases the property to the gas station also responsible? That closer to Ebay's relationship between the buyer and seller.
In reply to Toyman! :
Serious question (I'm not being flippant): Have you listed or sold anything on eBay lately ?
Marketplaces are very complex.. Sellers pop up and fall off daily.. You can list things on the site and then drop off very quickly. Differences in discrptions and item numbers make it hard to keep up with compliance.
Ebay is effectively brokering the deal.. They are responsible for more than people think.. They actually take the money.. hold it and then give it to the 3rd party..
In reply to Indy - Guy :
Not in the last 4 or 5 years.
This post has received too many downvotes to be displayed.
In reply to 93gsxturbo :
I think this forum started out being about Billy Bob but by the looks of this we have firmly landed in Jean-Pierre's territory we used to be hot rodders and racers but it seems we are becoming Eco and noise terrorists and I for one think its a shame.
I buy decongestant. I'm limited by the amount I can buy at a time, because the decongestant contains a component that hillbillies use to make meth. The pharmacist has no control over what I do with it, nor do they manufacture it in house. I garuntee you if they sell me a huge pile, and I use it to make meth instead of clearing my head, the feds are going to hammer the shot out of them.
That's why I agree that E-Bay is a component in the emissions defeat game.
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