Edumicate Me, Oh Great Audiophiles

bravenrace wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

bravenrace wrote: Buying used seems difficult to me without knowing in advance what I want. First, if it's something out of production, how will I know how it will sound? Second, I have to spend a lot of time going to look/hear just one item. I want to keep the price down, but I'm not sure I need to that much. I'll look into used, but for now let's assume that I'm looking at new systems/components.

Polk Monitor 70s off of newegg. Do you have any home audio shops around you that deal in used gear at all? 1 or 2 year old Marantz receivers should be fairly cheap. That would give you a hell of a start. But in terms of what you like in terms of sound.... what DO you like? I've had my ears on literally 100s of pieces of gear in just the last year or so.

After years of playing in Big Jazz Bands, I tend to like to hear the music much like it sounds when I'm playing, which I guess is VERY realistic. I like clear highs and thundering bass, but not mushy like rock bass can be. It needs to be thumpy but tight. I'm not sure how else to explain it other than I liked my Advents enough to keep them for 35 years. So if you know what they sound like, I'd like to improve on that. Also, can a home theater system do a good job of playing CD's or LP's? Or are they two different beasts? The Polk 60's and 70's seem popular here and are not at all out of my price range. I like also that I can probably find them locally to listen to if not buy.

LP might be a bit rough. You'd probably want to get a separate phono stage, since the phono stage (if it even has one) on a "budget" receiver is usually terrible.

CDs? Absolutely.

However, let me ask you this... Ask the reverse question:

Can a good 2-channel setup do a good job of playing movies?

I'd like to see you buy a used pair of Paradigm or Mirage speakers. When i say "used" i don't mean 20 years old and beat up, either. The used market is not good to speakers unless you're talking about Paradigm Signature Series. (just as an example.)

But again, if you MUST have new, the Monitor 70s would be a good bet. Nice punchy and quick bass, strong midrange, and clear highs. I would consider their highs to be their weak point, but i would also point out that they're likely quite a bit better than 35 year old Advents.

I demo'd a pair of 70s a few months ago, and i liked them a lot. I did NOT replace my trusty $100 used Paradigm Esprits with them, though. The 70s had a slight bass impact edge, but the Paradigms went a bit lower despite having fewer drivers in a smaller cabinet, and the highs on the Esprits were way better. "Clear, airy, and sparkling" are words usually used to describe the tweets on these.

But seriously... throw out a budget that you'd be willing to spend on just speakers for now. If you're willing to pay for better than the 70s, no reason to "settle" for them. (Yes, that'll also affect the components used to drive them, but it'll be a start.)

scardeal wrote: BTW, it is my understanding that the TSi line of Polks took over where the Monitors left off.

Correct, but the performance improvement isn't that big. I like the highs slightly better on the TSi line, but that's about it.

The monitors offer more bang for the buck, and they were/are so popular that Newegg ended up getting Polk to continue the Monitor line in the Monitor II series.

The main appeal of the Tsi line in my opinion is that the finishes are nicer looking.

scardeal wrote: The rears are almost afterthoughts by comparison. You'd have to watch all broadcast HD tv (vs DVRed) or DVD/BluRay sources to be using your surrounds most of the time. DVRs usually record a stereo track, non-HD tv is stereo, music is usually stereo, Netflix is stereo, etc. The only reason that front center is important is because lots of dialogue goes through that speaker, and possibly mono sources as well.

If you stream Netflix from your PS3 (if you have one that is) you get 5.1 sound.

Any love for Infinity speakers? I seem to have accumulated a bunch of those. Though my main setup is Polk.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: But seriously... throw out a budget that you'd be willing to spend on just speakers for now. If you're willing to pay for better than the 70s, no reason to "settle" for them. (Yes, that'll also affect the components used to drive them, but it'll be a start.)

I hate to state a budget because I don't know if I can get what I want for a particular amount of money. But in the back of my mind I was hoping to not spend more than $1k on the speakers and amp. I can spend more, but I don't want to.

bravenrace wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: But seriously... throw out a budget that you'd be willing to spend on just speakers for now. If you're willing to pay for better than the 70s, no reason to "settle" for them. (Yes, that'll also affect the components used to drive them, but it'll be a start.)

I hate to state a budget because I don't know if I can get what I want for a particular amount of money. But in the back of my mind I was hoping to not spend more than $1k on the speakers and amp. I can spend more, but I don't want to.

Cake! And is that all you need? You've already got a cdp and all that? Do you really need HDMI capability? Are you cool with a GOOD stereo setup, or would you rather have a decent HT setup?

Otto Maddox wrote: Any love for Infinity speakers? I seem to have accumulated a bunch of those. Though my main setup is Polk.

Depends on the model...

The circa 90s "fridge" speakers were good for being loud, and that's about it. (opinion)

But some of the higher end stuff is EXCELLENT. The more recent Primus series wasn't bad at all. I'd put it on par with the Polk Monitor series, maybe right in between the Monitors and RTiA series, actually. Tweeters were a little harsh for me, though.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

bravenrace wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: But seriously... throw out a budget that you'd be willing to spend on just speakers for now. If you're willing to pay for better than the 70s, no reason to "settle" for them. (Yes, that'll also affect the components used to drive them, but it'll be a start.)

I hate to state a budget because I don't know if I can get what I want for a particular amount of money. But in the back of my mind I was hoping to not spend more than $1k on the speakers and amp. I can spend more, but I don't want to.

Cake! And is that all you need? You've already got a cdp and all that? Do you really need HDMI capability? Are you cool with a GOOD stereo setup, or would you rather have a decent HT setup?

I don't know if I need HDMI capability, because I don't know what that is. I'm assuming HT is home theater? I'll say this - Whatever I buy will serve both functions, so I'm looking for the system that will do that the best. I have a CDP, a DVD, a turntable, I'm just looking to replace my old speakers and amp. Then those will likely go out in my shop. BTW, just out of curiousity, how is it that you know so much about this stuff?

HDMI - digital audio+video cable for HDTV

I have HDTV, so it sounds like I need that, right?

bravenrace wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

bravenrace wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: But seriously... throw out a budget that you'd be willing to spend on just speakers for now. If you're willing to pay for better than the 70s, no reason to "settle" for them. (Yes, that'll also affect the components used to drive them, but it'll be a start.)

I hate to state a budget because I don't know if I can get what I want for a particular amount of money. But in the back of my mind I was hoping to not spend more than $1k on the speakers and amp. I can spend more, but I don't want to.

Cake! And is that all you need? You've already got a cdp and all that? Do you really need HDMI capability? Are you cool with a GOOD stereo setup, or would you rather have a decent HT setup?

I don't know if I need HDMI capability, because I don't know what that is. I'm assuming HT is home theater? I'll say this - Whatever I buy will serve both functions, so I'm looking for the system that will do that the best. I have a CDP, a DVD, a turntable, I'm just looking to replace my old speakers and amp. Then those will likely go out in my shop. BTW, just out of curiousity, how is it that you know so much about this stuff?

Heh, i should clarify:

What makes a great HT doesn't necessary make a great music rig. What makes a great music rig doesn't necessarily make a great HT rig. (And yes, HT = home theatre.)

In my opinion, a great stereo (2-channel) setup is more flexible and will give greater enjoyment as a double duty system.

However, the question is... which do you do more? Watch movies or listen to music?

HDMI is the new digital format that supports HD video and audio. It's not NECESSARY, and in my opinion about all it offers is less wires to the average user.

Sounds like you'd be happy with a 2-channel setup, though. I'm going to keep with my last recommendation. I'd highly suggest some lightly used Paradigm or Mirage speakers. (The Paradigm Monitor series are a bargain on the used market), paired with a good Marantz receiver, or make the jump into a nice "separates" setup. (preamp and power amp.)

Parasound makes a nice entry level preamp, and there's plenty of amps out there for nice prices. Adcom, Parasound, B&K, etc...

As for my "knowledge?" I'm no expert. It's just my other hobby. How do all you guys know so much about cars?

bravenrace wrote: I have HDTV, so it sounds like I need that, right?

Not necessarily. I only have one audio rig, and it's a dedicated 2-channel setup. HDMI doesn't exist in the 2-channel world.

I pass video over HDMI only from my Blu-ray player, PS3, and cable box directly to my TV. All audio from those same sources gets put through the 2-channel B&K preamp.

Honestly, unless you're out to make a BADASS HT setup, i'd rather spend the money on the amplification section than HDMI processing.

Right now we watch movies more than listen to music, but if I had it my way, it would be the other way around. In any case, music is more important to me. You mentioned Paradigm or Mirage speakers. I've never heard of either before. Is there a particular model or are they all the same? Why are they better?

bravenrace wrote: Right now we watch movies more than listen to music, but if I had it my way, it would be the other way around. In any case, music is more important to me. You mentioned Paradigm or Mirage speakers. I've never heard of either before. Is there a particular model or are they all the same? Why are they better?

They've both got a pretty wide range of models. Stick with floorstanders. Paradigm Monitor 7s, 9s, or 11s should be relatively easy to find for well within your budget and they're excellent sounding. (Higher number is more bigger and more better) They're just really... musical, and will pack plenty of punch for movies. In terms of traditional tweeters (not ribbons) Paradigm makes some of the best in the business. They're also very good about the "trickle-down" effect. Parts and design from their past high end speakers make their way down to their entry level.

Mirage is pretty much the same story, though recently they've gone mainly to cute little floorstanders for maximum WAF. They aren't as good now. But, used market, as long as you're looking at decent sized floorstanders, they didn't really make a bad speaker, well... ever.

They did dabble in some funky di-pole and di-pole-and-a-half designs, though, so if your room is weird shaped, i'd skip those models. I can identify those for you if you find any.

For what it's worth, i have one of the smallest Paradigm floorstanders ever made. They're a small footprint ported cab 2-way design with one 6.5" driver and a 0.75" tweeter. I have no problems getting adequate impact watching movies, i can make things vibrate on the mantle.

I listened to a pair of Paradigm bookshelves. I thought they were good... I think they may have been lacking lower midrange, but it was a while ago...

scardeal wrote: I listened to a pair of Paradigm bookshelves. I thought they were good... I think they may have been lacking lower midrange, but it was a while ago...

Possibly/likely depending how they had them set up. It amuses me to no end when i go to demo speakers and they have the bookshelves sitting on a shelf not coupled to the floor, mashed up against the back wall, and powered by whatever crappy bottom of the line Yamaha receiver they had lying around, but they'll bring out the best for the floorstanders.

Especially in the Studio line, Paradigm bookshelves will make you SWEAR you were listening to a nice decent sized floorstander.

I also own a pair of Paradigm Titans that i'm not using for the simple fact that i don't like how bookshelves look as front mains in a living room. Despite being a bookshelf, they offer every bit of 85% of the performance of the towers i'm using, and they're pretty much bottom of the Paradigm barrel.

I bought the axiom m22's about 5 years back now, I don't see them on the used market very often, but I really enjoy listening to them in stereo on an older marantz receiver They were once on a hk av225 but that receiver was regulated to the big screen in the basement. The axiom's are relatively flat tonally, excellent high-mid, adequate lows - paring with a decent sub would be better for movies/big bass.

I want to buy them for every room in the house - I like them, but that might be considered excessive.

I didn't read all of the posts but I did just install a bose surround system at my parents house. It's almost so advanced it's creepy. Once you get it set up it controls EVERYTHING, and it even has built in FM/AM. It's pretty awesome but not quite grassroots motorsports style. It only set him back more than most of us here are willing to plunk down for a new set of wheels - $3300! I'm surprised even he spent that much money. He's always known for being incredibly frugal.

I recently passed on a set of Klipsch studio monitors and I should have snagged them. I forget the model number, but they were the 8" passive/active like my buddy used to have in his recording booth, and they were remarkable.

Passed them up for $250. Not so smart.

Anyway, my point is that Klipsch isn't cheap, but slightly used studio monitors might be had cheap and they please my ear to a tea. They combine some nice efficiency with the closest thing to flat reproduction I've heard. Rock solid enclosures, rigid baskets, I like 'em.

Now, of course, flat EQ reproduction and what everyone's ear actually hears are two different things, but the Klipsch monitors are what sounds closest to ME to a flat eq when given a flat signal. Make sense?

bravenrace wrote: I've replaced the woofers in my speakers 3 or 4 times over the years. I just think maybe it's time to move on. Maybe not, idunno. Can I replace my woofers with something that doesn't have foam surrounds? Something that would hold up better and still sound good?

Weeeeel. Generally speaking it's not a great idea to replace the woofer. Just the surround. Unless you get identical replacements for that speaker. If you don't have the original woofers, yeah, move on. They're not the speaker they used to be.

Foam surrounds take about an hour to install. Not hard, just tedious. A decent set of surrounds should last 20 years easily. I just replaced the original surrounds on a pair of AR LST2s from 1975. So 35 years. They were well past it though. If you replace surrounds more than twice in a lifetime something odd is going on.

I've heard of people replacing foam surrounds with rubber surrounds, but I've never done it myself. It will change the voicing of the driver and I've done it enough times I can usually get it done pretty easily.

As for cleaning the receiver, you want to do more than get the dust out. You want to get contact cleaner and clean the pots and switches. Super easy job. DeoxIt is the good stuff, but the cheap-o stuff from Radio Shack will do the job. Just make sure to get every switch. That static sound can come from any of them. Seems like tape monitor switches always give me fits.

Take care,

Ed

Oh, I should add- foam surrounds are the budget audiophile's best friend. People get rid of really, really good speakers all the time because the "woofer's are blown" when really they just need $2 worth of foam. Maybe pop by the Goodwill a few times and see what you can find. I've gotten amazing speakers at Goodwill. Speakers getting on in years often need the capacitors in the crossovers replaced as well. If you can solder, at all, it's a really easy job, and really good caps cost 3 or 4 bucks.

In reply to fast_eddie_72:

I didn't even know you could replace just the surrounds. I have always bought my replacement woofers directly from Advent, if that helps. How would I go about buying new foam? And why am I not getting 20 years out of it? I'd say I'm getting more like 10-12 years out of them since new. If I could make them work well again and get the received back in shape, I'd probably be happy again.

the foam will deteriorate at a faster rate with direct sunlight and other conditions that may differ from what the people who get 20yrs to a surround expose their speakers to.

bravenrace wrote: I didn't even know you could replace just the surrounds. I have always bought my replacement woofers directly from Advent, if that helps. How would I go about buying new foam?

A lot of people don't. I am guilty myself of putting those crappy Pioneer woofers Radio Shack used to sell in otherwise good speakers because of foam rot.

Since it's your fist time, maybe not a bad idea to buy a refoam kit. Something like this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Advent-1-Speaker-Foam-Repair-Kit-Woofer-Refoam-Kit-/300378795562

They'll come with instructions. I buy "generic" foam from a place called MAT Electronics, and it's really cheap that way, but they have a minimum order. Loads of stuff there, though, so might have a look around and see if there's anything else you need.

Personally, I don't pull the dust caps and shim the voice coil. Basically, refoaming a speaker is as simple as pulling off the old, rotten foam, cleaning the basket and cone and gluing on the new foam. Only real pitfall is having the woofer end up not being centered in the voice coil gap. The shims address that, but it's just as good, in my experience, to hook up an amp and play some tunes as you glue the new surround to the basket. Then you know everything is okay before the glue dries.

This sounds a lot harder than it really is. If you google "how to refoam speakers" you'll find tons of write ups and even videos. It's absolutely a DIY kinda job than anyone who's at all handy can do.

Oh, yes, it is VERY good that you've gotten your replacements from Advent. That means all is good. I have no idea why the foam would be failing so quickly. I have to assume that Advent is specifying very thin foam for the driver. If you get a speaker specific refoam kit it may well come with exactly the same foam and you may be at this again in 10 or 12 years. The generic stuff is tough as nails. Probably does effect the sound of the speaker to some degree, but I've never personally heard any difference in any speakers I've done. I've probably refoamed 20+ pairs of speakers over the years.

I'm not trying to talk you out of buying new gear if that's what you want. Just want to make sure you know the options. If you decided to foam the speakers, I'd really encourage you to put new caps in them as well. It's cheap, easy and you won't belive the difference it makes. I mean, literally, you won't belive when you're doing it that it can make the difference it actually does. I use Dayton caps from Parts Express.

Found this real quick with the google.

That's pretty much what I thought. The crossovers in the older Advets were very simple because the drivers were matched in such a way that they took care of a lot of the roll off naturally. If that schematic is accurate, well, hum. 13uF is hard to find. So you need one of these:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?PartNumber=027-430

And one of these:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?PartNumber=027-400

Take care,

Ed

God, sorry, writing a book here. Hey, looking at some google info, it looks like your Advent 1 may have the "old school" Avent type woofer. I thought they went with a more conventional driver when they changed the tweeter. Those old woofers are a little odd and you should get the "right" foam for them. I would advise against the generic foam for these. Something like the ebay kit I posted above would work great.

Sorry, I'll go back to my corner and be quite now.

Oh wise AudioSages, I thank thee for this wealth of wisdom, as well as this one; http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/off-topic-discussion/grassroots-audiosports/25897/page1/ I am would like to put together my first HT rig to replace my parent's hand me down Sony something or other and once thy coinpurse jingles with joy and the craigslist gods smile down upon me, I shall start piecing it together with your guidance.