jsquared wrote: living under the protection of the very definition of a Big-Brother police/surveillance state?
The US is not even close in this regard, compared to the rest of the 1st world.
By far, you guys have the most "freedom". But it comes at a cost.
Datsun1500 wrote:Xceler8x wrote: Anyone who giggles at the term rectal hydration needs to have it done to them in the manner and environment it was performed according to the report..... Airing this in public helps to keep this from happening to you or anyone you know.It won't happen to me, I am not a terrorist and/or plotting against the USA.
Until someone important decides you are. That's a very dangerous game you're playing.
I can't work up much outrage over the US going all Jack Bauer on some terrorists. Assuming that they are, in fact, actual terrorists, and that the Jack Bauers of the world get something useful as a result of their work.
Will wrote:Datsun1500 wrote:Until someone important decides you are. That's a very dangerous game you're playing. I can't work up much outrage over the US going all Jack Bauer on some terrorists. Assuming that they are, in fact, actual terrorists, and that the Jack Bauers of the world get something useful as a result of their work.Xceler8x wrote: Anyone who giggles at the term rectal hydration needs to have it done to them in the manner and environment it was performed according to the report..... Airing this in public helps to keep this from happening to you or anyone you know.It won't happen to me, I am not a terrorist and/or plotting against the USA.
I know at least two completely innocent people have been renditioned over some kind of mistaken identity. Here's one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_Arar
The second was a young guy with family in Pakistan who had a similar name to a known terrorist. If any of us are safer than him from this happening, it's only because we don't have middle-eastern names.
In reply to GameboyRMH:
I'm not surprised. We can't even find out how people end up on the no-fly list, or how to get off that list, even when it's an obvious mistake, like a child.
Will wrote: In reply to GameboyRMH: I'm not surprised. We can't even find out how people end up on the no-fly list, or how to get off that list, even when it's an obvious mistake, like a child.
Again, if you knew the details of how someone gets added to the No Fly List, you'd be able to infer how some is that information is gathered, which in turn burns that method for future information gathering. There is a defined process with hard wickets to hit before someone can be added, but I am off shift and at the barracks and thus can't check my other resources to see what parts are unclassified. And while it is embarrassing when something happens like a kid getting blocked, these are errors of coincidence more than a flaw in the system. I don't remember the process for fixing things like that, but there is one. As far as snatching up the wrong guy... that's a whole new level of "somebody done berkeleyed up" that can't really speak to.
HiTempguy wrote:jsquared wrote: living under the protection of the very definition of a Big-Brother police/surveillance state?The US is not even close in this regard, compared to the rest of the 1st world. By far, you guys have the most "freedom". But it comes at a cost.
I was referring in that instance to Russia, trying to highlight the hypocrisy of criticizing US policy while living under the care of one of the most powerful totalitarian states in the world, whose own domestic and international activities make our stuff look like Eddie Izzard's Church of England Inquisition.
In reply to jsquared:
Buwahahahaahaha, I needed that laugh.
FWIW, when people keep pointing to the LAW as if the LAW were in some way infalible or more than simply an agreement by whichever group of elected thieves (er......lawyers) happen to have rammed down our throats most recently.
You are all smart enough to think of many many examples of berkeleyed up LAWS that at one point were considered to be fair, reasonable and just.
Tea and cake or death! Um, cake please.
Also, was trying to find a meme from a while back, basically the Heath Ledger Joker and something along the lines of "guy hacks phone to steal nude photos of celebrities, internet rejoices; NSA hacks phones to catch terrorists, internet loses its mind". Couldn't find it, but stumbled across this article . The main topic is not directly relevant, but pay attention to the details of the anecdote.
KyAllroad wrote: FWIW, when people keep pointing to the LAW as if the LAW were in some way infalible or more than simply an agreement by whichever group of elected thieves (er......lawyers) happen to have rammed down our throats most recently. You are all smart enough to think of many many examples of berkeleyed up LAWS that at one point were considered to be fair, reasonable and just.
A reasonable point. Don't like the law, get in a lather at Congress. However the distinction I will make is that some laws are unconstitutional and should be changed, whereas others are just unpopular due to misguided public opinion. To make sure my point is not lost: I absolutely do not think torture or things similar should be permitted, at all.
In reply to KyAllroad:
Doesn't matter. If it's the law, that should the end of the discussion, even if you don't like it or agree with it. This is a country based on laws. Not opinion, not wishes, not prayers, but laws. There are a bunch of them I don't agree with. That also doesn't matter.
Is the law infallible? No. That doesn't me we get to disregard the ones we don't like. That's why there is a procedure to change them. That's why governors and the president have the power to grant pardons.
The system isn't perfect but it is the best system in the world at the moment.
The law as it stands now says that a guy can kidnap your baby girl, torture her for days, rape her repeatedly, and finally kill her: and if the authorities catch this guy (barring they don't make a single mistake during his processing) he MAY get life in prison. If she doesn't get killed but only scarred for life, he'll be out in 20 years or less.
That's the law and it's crap.
Call me old school if you like but I have a very clear idea of what said person would receive. Unfortunately, the LAW says that at that point I am the criminal, not the rabid rapist.
I say again, the law is a joke written by self serving lawyers and politicians.
Add for clarity: we as a society have become such a bunch of Bob Costas that we actually have to pass laws "allowing" law abiding citizens to stand their own ground when attacked. And in some misguided states the citizen had a duty to run away rather than defend themselves.
In reply to KyAllroad:
I do not disagree with you at all and in that situation I would have some very serious thinking to do. I would happily serve the sentence and would not expect any leniency, because I broke the law. I would also understand, that path leads to anarchy.
Personally I think they should bring back public hangings and the firing squad. But that's not the law.
jsquared wrote: Also, was trying to find a meme from a while back, basically the Heath Ledger Joker and something along the lines of "guy hacks phone to steal nude photos of celebrities, internet rejoices; NSA hacks phones to catch terrorists, internet loses its mind".
Hacking phones is a tiny little speck of what the NSA does overall. In terms of overall intrusion, they're probably bigger than all the world's cybercriminals combined. No cybercriminal ever managed to sabotage a NIST standard.
Edit: In fact I'd like to hear what you think about the NSA effectively sabotaging the non-military side of the US government's cybersecurity, for example as collateral damage from their BULLRUN program. That was one of the most surprising things I saw in the leaks.
Do not be distracted by this stinky bait. This all happened 12 years ago and is not really relevant.
This is a distraction from a screwing we are getting on another quadrant, like Obamas immigration "reform".
Focus FOCUS! Do not be distracted, stay on point.
On the issue of timing and politics...
The Democratic Senate release this report ON THE SAME DAY that the Republican House interviews Jonathan Gruber (architect of ACA) regarding his comments that the ACA was flawed by design and the American peole were too stupid to understand it.
The report is old news, yet sensationistic and grabs the attention of the media.
The Gruber interview is current news and a potential black eye to the administration, but makes very little impact in the media.
Connection? Maybe , maybe not. Perhaps Congress is too stupid to realize the schedule overlap, and it was purely a coincidence. 
People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
That said, this all is just bait to take people's minds off of the ACA stuff.
GameboyRMH wrote:jsquared wrote: Also, was trying to find a meme from a while back, basically the Heath Ledger Joker and something along the lines of "guy hacks phone to steal nude photos of celebrities, internet rejoices; NSA hacks phones to catch terrorists, internet loses its mind".Hacking phones is a tiny little speck of what the NSA does overall. In terms of overall intrusion, they're probably bigger than all the world's cybercriminals combined. No cybercriminal ever managed to sabotage a NIST standard. Edit: In fact I'd like to hear what you think about the NSA effectively sabotaging the non-military side of the US government's cybersecurity, for example as collateral damage from their BULLRUN program. That was one of the most surprising things I saw in the leaks.
I'm not familiar with that, I will have to look it up.
You don't have to tell me what NSA does 
They are not nearly as intrusive as you think, and there are far FAR more restrictions on what they can do than you will ever hear about from the media. China and Russia I'd say are the most intrusive, since they aren't really bound by things like ethics 
China makes no distinction between national security and intellectual property because they are communist and to them everything is under the government's purview.
I figured it out, jsquared works for the NSA and is here to keep tabs on gameboy 
I have someone assigned to me personally? Wow, I'm flattered
GameboyRMH wrote: I know at least two completely innocent people have been renditioned over some kind of mistaken identity. Here's one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_Arar
Somedays its hard to take you seriously. Hardly "innocent", but very much in the "you cant prove E36 M3 coppers!" Camp. berkeley that guy, he got less than he deserved.
HiTempguy wrote:GameboyRMH wrote: I know at least two completely innocent people have been renditioned over some kind of mistaken identity. Here's one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_ArarSomedays its hard to take you seriously. Hardly "innocent", but very much in the "you cant prove E36 M3 coppers!" Camp. berkeley that guy, he got less than he deserved.
Really? AFAIK this guy is only guilty of being of Syrian descent. If there's any evidence that he has any Al Qaeda association etc, please let me know, I'd hate to think I've been suggesting that a guy who got off on a technicality is completely innocent.
oldsaw wrote: Seems like you're occupying some selective moral high ground with that stance. Can we expect the same response when the morality and legality of state-sanctioned drone assassinations are put under the microscope? It's not political to note that we have murdered over two thousand people without giving them the benefit of a legal defense so they can proclaim their innocence. That's not to mention the hundreds of poor souls who were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time and then glibly written off as collateral damage.
I completely agree with you. The fact that people who have never seen the inside of a court room are being executed is horrific as well. I feel the same way about the kidnappings so cutely named "renditions."
The names these people use to describe their actions. They're too cowardly to even call their chosen action by it's honest name.
Osama Bin Laden killed thousands of us but he couldn't harm our Constitution. We did that ourselves.
jsquared wrote: We should never pay bad men to do bad things. We do have some very hard men that do things that wouldn't fit in polite conversation, but those men should be even *more* robust in their ethics to ensure they don't cross the line. That line is what separates us from the bad guys. If we compromise our foundation in the fight for our way of life, then it is no longer the way of life we are fighting for.
Isn't that what we're talking about? How we should have oversight i.e. transparency into what people do so we don't compromise our foundation beliefs? I'd say that torturing people is against what the USA stands for. It's also non-productive in gaining information. That's not my opinion...that's accepted fact backed up by study after study as well as practical experience from various interrogators. Let's not even discuss how torturing innocent folks only creates more enemies of the USA as opposed to stopping them. I could say the same about the NSA's listening actions. We're seeing an explosion in communications security. VPN usage by citizens has never been higher as on example.
I'm inclined to believe that if the U.S. is to prevail against terrorist regimes that do not "play nice," we are going to have to find a way to stomach "enhanced interrogation" and worse. I don't have a problem with it. Period. Say what you will about my morals.
1988RedT2 wrote: "enhanced interrogation" and worse.
It's debatable if there's anything worse you can do to an individual...
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