SV reX said:
In reply to GameboyRMH :
You are moving the goalposts again. Median household income is not just people who work full time jobs.
Sorry it wasn't intentional, we have been discussing how the issue affects full-time workers. I can agree that if you only have a part-time job like occasional gig work or a part-time shift at a fast food restaurant, it's fine if you can't afford housing on that. I think someone on a full-time shift at the fast food place should be able to though.
From what I can find currently 77% of workers are full-time.
In reply to bobzilla :
No, the graph shows inflation-adjusted values for both. You're comparing inflation-adjusted home values to non-inflation-adjusted incomes (as helpfully labeled at the top of the graph)
Edit: You might want to check your raw numbers as well. The inflation-adjusted value of houses leading up to the great recession, which is similar to pandemic-era peaks, is nearly 2x of what they were in the early 70s:
SV reX
MegaDork
9/14/23 3:01 p.m.
In reply to GameboyRMH :
You moved them AGAIN.
" I think someone on a full-time shift at the fast food place should be able to (afford housing) though".
Affording housing is not the same thing as affording home ownership. Being able to pay for a rental space or a trailer is perfectly fine by many people.
How about a mentally handicapped individual with a full time job? Should they buy a house? How about a full time employee with bad credit? A high debt ratio? No job history or job security? How about if renting is cheaper, or if they would just prefer to rent? Someone who moves every year or two? Someone in an unstable relationship? A declining real estate market? Someone who travels full time?
Home ownership is not a standard that fits everyone.
SV reX
MegaDork
9/14/23 3:02 p.m.
Is it OK that most household incomes include 2 wage earners? Should house prices be lowered for people who are single just because they are single?
SV reX
MegaDork
9/14/23 3:06 p.m.
Should people have to pay a down payment?
What if a full time worker at a fast food place can't save up the down payment? Should he be able to buy a house?
In reply to SV reX :
In terms of single vs. 2 wage earners I think a single fully-able person with a moderate credit rating and median debt ratio on a full-time income with no job history and no compulsion to move should be able to afford housing which means ownership of at least a minimal single detached house (1 bed/bath). I hope that pins down the goalposts sufficiently.
GameboyRMH said:
In reply to SV reX :
In terms of single vs. 2 wage earners I think a single fully-able person with a moderate credit rating and median debt ratio on a full-time income with no job history and no compulsion to move should be able to afford housing which means ownership of at least a minimal single detached house (1 bed/bath). I hope that pins down the goalposts sufficiently.
You can get a job at 5 guys (fast food place) at $18 an hour at the moment. That is $36K a year. At $36k a year you qualify for a $145k house loan at current rates.
This House is listed for $129,900 in a Baltimore suburb. 3 Bed 3 bath in a sold neighborhood. Plenty out there like this.
In reply to Steve_Jones :
That's good for the people in Baltimore, unfortunately that's not a common situation. That house is well under half, from what I'm hearing possibly less than a third of the current US median house price.
GameboyRMH said:
In reply to SV reX :
In terms of single vs. 2 wage earners I think a single fully-able person with a moderate credit rating and median debt ratio on a full-time income with no job history and no compulsion to move should be able to afford housing which means ownership of at least a minimal single detached house (1 bed/bath). I hope that pins down the goalposts sufficiently.
With real estate it's "location location location". So your goals are completely doable in places like Anderson, Indiana or Terre Haute. Like these. But Ontario? Nah that ain't happening. East coast? Nope. LA? Nope. Again, location location location.
Also, "moderate credit rating, no job history and median debt ratio"? Then why bother trying if you're just going to give it all away. I bet I know who will be footing that bill. It'll be like everything else in canada, over priced because of over taxation with mediocre quality.
Opti
SuperDork
9/14/23 3:54 p.m.
In reply to SV reX :
My brother just bought a house with no down payment, It actually happens pretty often. Bought my first house, not that long ago but pre covid surge, at well below the median income.
GameboyRMH said:
In reply to Steve_Jones :
That's good for the people in Baltimore, unfortunately that's not a common situation. That house is well under half, from what I'm hearing possibly less than a third of the current US median house price.
Again, location is key. You live someplace where the COL is high, housing and everything else will be expensive. This isn't rocket surgery.
In reply to bobzilla :
So your solution is just mass exodus from expensive areas? What happens when everyone moves to Baltimore and Anderson and Terre Haute and the prices there creep up to median (or likely even higher due to a sudden influx)?
SV reX
MegaDork
9/14/23 4:04 p.m.
GameboyRMH said:
In reply to Steve_Jones :
That's good for the people in Baltimore, unfortunately that's not a common situation. That house is well under half, from what I'm hearing possibly less than a third of the current US median house price.
Right!
And HALF of homebuyers are under the median income level!
Why are we comparing the median house price to low wage earners?
SV reX
MegaDork
9/14/23 4:05 p.m.
GameboyRMH said:
In reply to bobzilla :
So your solution is just mass exodus from expensive areas? What happens when everyone moves to Baltimore and Anderson and Terre Haute and the prices there creep up to median (or likely even higher due to a sudden influx)?
Which is exactly the same thing that has always happened.
SV reX said:
GameboyRMH said:
In reply to bobzilla :
So your solution is just mass exodus from expensive areas? What happens when everyone moves to Baltimore and Anderson and Terre Haute and the prices there creep up to median (or likely even higher due to a sudden influx)?
Which is exactly the same thing that has always happened.
This is how life works. When enough people leave the high priced areas, their values come back down and people move back there. Again, this is not rocket surgery. Before this thread I would have called it Common Sense, but obviously that's not very common anymore.
SV reX
MegaDork
9/14/23 4:14 p.m.
GameboyRMH said:
In reply to bobzilla :
So your solution is just mass exodus from expensive areas? What happens when everyone moves to Baltimore and Anderson and Terre Haute and the prices there creep up to median (or likely even higher due to a sudden influx)?
I don't understand why in the world someone would want to live somewhere they can't afford, and why we should be debating the extremes like this. There have always been expensive places in the world, and many people who cant afford to live there.
Yes. I recommend considering moving if you happen to live in an area that is too expensive for you to live. That's what I did when I was young, and my life has been pretty good.
Duke
MegaDork
9/14/23 4:16 p.m.
Somehow, folks still can't get past the simple truth that POPULAR THINGS GET MORE EXPENSIVE THE MORE SCARCE THEY ARE.
Remember the Hot / Crazy graph? It's like that, but for prices.
Popular, rare stuff is going to be up at the high end of that graph. Unpopular or common stuff is going to be at the low end of that graph.
There really is no way around that simple relationship that does not involve legislation and forcibly moving money from one group to another.
In reply to SV reX :
I'm beginning to think I've been doing it all wrong. I should have worked less and whined more and let other people do it for me?
SV reX
MegaDork
9/14/23 4:19 p.m.
In reply to Duke :
Forcibly moving money from one group to another will make the poor people more wealthy, then THEY will be the ones buying the more expensive stuff.
Dr Suess understood..., "The star-bellied Sneetches had bellies with stars, the plain-bellied Sneetches had none upon thars..."
All we need is Sylvester McMonkey McBean to solve the problem! (He was a great capitalist)
SV reX said:
Right!
And HALF of homebuyers are under the median income level!
Why are we comparing the median house price to low wage earners?
Fair point, but I don't think there's as much variance between low vs. median house prices as between low vs. median incomes. And according to this census data, the median salary in Baltimore is $54k vs. $69k nationally:
https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/baltimorecitymaryland,US/INC110221
SV reX said:
GameboyRMH said:
In reply to bobzilla :
So your solution is just mass exodus from expensive areas? What happens when everyone moves to Baltimore and Anderson and Terre Haute and the prices there creep up to median (or likely even higher due to a sudden influx)?
I don't understand why in the world someone would want to live somewhere they can't afford, and why we should be debating the extremes like this. There have always been expensive places in the world, and many people who cant afford to live there.
Yes. I recommend considering moving if you happen to live in an area that is too expensive for you to live. That's what I did when I was young, and my life has been pretty good.
I think it's a bit silly to live a life being chased around the planet, being excluded from whole regions due to irrationally exploding home prices. There has to be a better solution than turning humanity into a nomadic species fleeing an insane housing market.
Edit: Especiallly since it's hard to run from the median income/price situation which is unaffordable enough.
SV reX
MegaDork
9/14/23 4:22 p.m.
In reply to GameboyRMH :
Great. Tell THAT to Dubai.
GameboyRMH said:
In reply to Steve_Jones :
That's good for the people in Baltimore, unfortunately that's not a common situation. That house is well under half, from what I'm hearing possibly less than a third of the current US median house price.
I chose Baltimore because that is where I am. Keep moving those goalposts.
Richmond VA
Harrisburg PA
Charlotte NC
Indianapolis IN
GameboyRMH said:
In reply to bobzilla :
So your solution is just mass exodus from expensive areas? What happens when everyone moves to Baltimore and Anderson and Terre Haute and the prices there creep up to median (or likely even higher due to a sudden influx)?
It's already happening and has been for years, even more than a decade before COVID. At a previous job, 3 yes THREE people in the engineering department were all people who sold their homes in California and moved to the Tulsa metro area. Either bought or built much larger homes and still pocketed a few hundred grand when it was all said and done.
