Examples of the industry listening to “us”

Just curious, are there any examples that are known of a company in the automotive industry making or changing a product because of GRM forum members? I feel like there are so many good ideas and valid opinions on here that I've seen over the last 10 years or so that some big company had to take our advice on something. I realize this is a tiny cross-section of the automotive world compared to the masses of "car as an appliance" buyers but do we have any examples of direct impacts?

*Asking specifically GRM members not car enthusiasts in general. 

I don't know about GRM members, but I know the Miata guys have gotten the tire makers to listen.

225/45/15, 245/40/15 200TW tires 

I think some have been pushing for 275/35/15 200TW tires, but I don't think that one will happen. Too much work to make them fit for a street car.

Not GRM, but I'd say the new Bronco.  The world and dealers were screaming for it.  I had people asking me back five years ago 'I know Ford are launching the new Bronco, will it be out in 16 or 17?'  This was even before the program was a go.  Massive industry and public pull certainly helped make it happen.

On the other side, remember the autocross / showroom stock Miata package from 15-20 years ago.  Base spec car with all performance options and either a soft top (for autocross) or hardtop (for road racing).  The car enthusiasts had been begging for that, predicting massive sales success, yet very few people bought them and they sat around on dealers lot's heavily discounted for a long long time.  It turns out, yet again, enthusiasts don't put their money where their mouth is.

Turbo Miata?  I thought that package was demanded by all of the message boards, including this one.

I think that the reality is that we (enthusiast) might be used as the case of "A step too far" . We are that awkward guy  the restaurant that ask the waitress too many questions about ingredients, substitutions, allergy requirements and substitutions while the rest of the table is just happy to get food and check out her features.

Cars are first and foremost transportation modules that get people to places and make profits for the overall auto industry. Crossing the line into building "Enthusiast" cars puts them into a world of diminishing returns where the cars  no longer suit the broader market as they need to give up mainstream appeal in order to appeal to the fringe people like us. Also, car enthusiast don't buy new cars; we don't have to since we can fix and maintain the used ones by skipping dealer labour cost.

So yeah, like my wife says about me, not useless, cause you make an excellent bad example.

Pete

Auto enthusiasts demanded a smaller, lighter Camaro. GM responded with the 6th-gen Camaro which was smaller and significantly lighter, as well as awesomely capable. And then sales immediately took a nose-dive and it went from beating the Mustang to trailing the 10 year old Challenger and development of the 7th-gen has been cancelled.

Bronco and Jeep Renegade are obvious answers.  On the sports car font, Dodge, Ford, Chevy and Porsche have been doing a great job over the past few years.  Cars like the Hellcat/Demon, Shelby Mustangs, C8, and Boxster/Cayman GTS 4.0 are direct responses to enthusiast demands.  I'm not sure how many GRM members are in the market for new cars that cost well over $50,000, but there are some awesome options right now.

Hyundai and Kia. They're listening to "us". Maybe not me directly but they are putting driver focused cars out there for us to enjoy. 

nderwater said:

Bronco and Jeep Renegade are obvious answers.  On the sports car font, Dodge, Ford, Chevy and Porsche have been doing a great job over the past few years.  Cars like the Hellcat/Demon, Shelby Mustangs, C8, and Boxster/Cayman GTS 4.0 are direct responses to enthusiast demands.  I'm not sure how many GRM members are in the market for new cars that cost well over $50,000, but there are some awesome options right now.

Notice I highlighted Ford.  Raj Nair was the major push for performance cars in Ford, specifically ST, RS and the GT.  He's long gone now and you wont see anymore of those vehicles stateside.  Hackett is more interested in a 'mobility' company than a performance one.  I'm not saying this is the right or wrong decision for the company, just the way it is.  

Also while I really like Raj as a person, and am not keen on Hackett's management style, I will say as a (now ex) share holder in the company, while I dearly love the Ford GT as one of the most significant SuperCars of this century, knowing what got canceled from the cycle plan to build it, I think it was the wrong decision from a business point of view. 

I can't name names, but a certain German automaker made it known to us that they were keenly aware of a GRM thread detailing the rebuilding of a glorified minivan....

In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :

That was the 2003 Club Sport. Iirc there were only 50 built - 25 convertibles & 25 hardtop only. I believe you also had to be an SCCA member to buy one, and due to the scarcity dealers definitely weren't making deals on them(at least when they were first released).

I think the combination of those factors conspired to make them a sales failure. 

NickD said:

Auto enthusiasts demanded a smaller, lighter Camaro. GM responded with the 6th-gen Camaro which was smaller and significantly lighter, as well as awesomely capable. And then sales immediately took a nose-dive.

That's because all of the size and most of the weight appears to have been taken out of the cockpit and greenhouse, which were already noticeably too small in the 5th generation cars.

Duke said:

NickD said:

Auto enthusiasts demanded a smaller, lighter Camaro. GM responded with the 6th-gen Camaro which was smaller and significantly lighter, as well as awesomely capable. And then sales immediately took a nose-dive.

That's because all of the size and most of the weight appears to have been taken out of the cockpit and greenhouse, which were already noticeably too small in the 5th generation cars.

 

Yep, they didn't fix the biggest problem, can't see out of the damn car!  Now with the 2019 and 2020 being super ugly the sales will get worse. 

Tom Suddard said:

I can't name names, but a certain German automaker made it known to us that they were keenly aware of a GRM thread detailing the rebuilding of a glorified minivan....

I understand if you can't get into it, but was it in a positive or negative light? I know the thread has survived into another owner, but I'm curious about your "monkey in the middle" position in that case. 

Gearheadotaku (Forum Supporter) said:

Duke said:

NickD said:

Auto enthusiasts demanded a smaller, lighter Camaro. GM responded with the 6th-gen Camaro which was smaller and significantly lighter, as well as awesomely capable. And then sales immediately took a nose-dive.

That's because all of the size and most of the weight appears to have been taken out of the cockpit and greenhouse, which were already noticeably too small in the 5th generation cars.

 

Yep, they didn't fix the biggest problem, can't see out of the damn car!  Now with the 2019 and 2020 being super ugly the sales will get worse. 

I've noticed GM consistently fails in this area.  Reason why my wife didn't get a Solstice when she was looking for a car.  Same with most of the vehicles of theirs that I've been in since the early 2000s.  Makes me wonder what kind of people work at GM and if Picasso used them for inspiration.

In reply to Gearheadotaku and Mr_Asa :

That's not only a GM problem, though they are consistently at the leading edge of creating it.

Since the early 2000s, wheels have been getting too big and windows have been getting too small.  To me it's almost reached absurdity, but that trend doesn't show much sign of slowing down.

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:

nderwater said:

Bronco and Jeep Renegade are obvious answers.  On the sports car font, Dodge, Ford, Chevy and Porsche have been doing a great job over the past few years.  Cars like the Hellcat/Demon, Shelby Mustangs, C8, and Boxster/Cayman GTS 4.0 are direct responses to enthusiast demands.  I'm not sure how many GRM members are in the market for new cars that cost well over $50,000, but there are some awesome options right now.

Notice I highlighted Ford.  Raj Nair was the major push for performance cars in Ford, specifically ST, RS and the GT.  He's long gone now and you wont see anymore of those vehicles stateside.  Hackett is more interested in a 'mobility' company than a performance one.  I'm not saying this is the right or wrong decision for the company, just the way it is.  

Also while I really like Raj as a person, and am not keen on Hackett's management style, I will say as a (now ex) share holder in the company, while I dearly love the Ford GT as one of the most significant SuperCars of this century, knowing what got canceled from the cycle plan to build it, I think it was the wrong decision from a business point of view. 

Funny- I saw the prototype mid-engined car that supposedly was in competition with the Explorer to be made or not.  That was clearly the right decision.

Duke said:

In reply to Gearheadotaku and Mr_Asa :

That's not only a GM problem, though they are consistently at the leading edge of creating it.

Since the early 2000s, wheels have been getting too big and windows have been getting too small.  To me it's almost reach absurdity, but that trend doesn't show much sign of slowing down.

 

True, companies seem to be relying on cameras for blindspots.

Drove a new Mustang as a rental about a year back, only way I could see out of the back easily was by taking down the drop top.  However the Camaro I also had as a rental on a later work trip it was difficult to see out of the damn windshield.

Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :

That was the 2003 Club Sport. Iirc there were only 50 built - 25 convertibles & 25 hardtop only. I believe you also had to be an SCCA member to buy one, and due to the scarcity dealers definitely weren't making deals on them(at least when they were first released).

I think the combination of those factors conspired to make them a sales failure. 

They were offered to SCCA members first as Mazda had visions of them being some sort of performance special. But that was only for a short period, then they were available to everyone. Problem was, it wasn't really special. It was just decontented with no AC and no radio and the off-the-shelf Sport suspension. The only thing that really made it interesting technically was the use of the manual steering rack that had only previously been used on the 1999 base model. I don't think there's a single unique part on the car.

Sold like a big turd. Took at least a year for all 50 to get cleared off the lots, and almost all of them got a radio and AC installed. A very high percentage also got forced induction. I don't know if any of them ever actually raced. If anyone wants one, I know of a 26k mile example coming up for sale.

The turbo Miata was an effort to take on the S2000. Also not a big seller. The market has taught Mazda not to listen to enthusiasts.

Keith Tanner said:The market has taught the industry not to listen to enthusiasts.

Fixorated it for you!

Tom Suddard said:

I can't name names, but a certain German automaker made it known to us that they were keenly aware of a GRM thread detailing the rebuilding of a glorified minivan....

Yeah this is what I'm talking about.  I'm looking for examples of the industry listening to GRM forum members NOT car enthusiasts in general. I 10000% realize the relationship between enthusiasts and the car industry in generalalities and that thread would be a mess.

I'm curious about a GRM solving a problem or coming up with a great idea and the industry paying attention. I think it's interesting to see what kind of impact some of our threads might have made in the bigger scope.  A product revised/created because of good ideas on here for example. 

GRM in particular? Probably never happened. Low-budget sports car enthusiasts are a tiny niche market these days and GRMers in particular are a fraction of that fraction. Low-budget gearheads more in general? The Toyobaru, ND, Fiesta, Veloster N, and a few similar models in production you can count on your fingers are the only evidence that the industry knows we exist, but it is strong evidence.

Tom Suddard said:

I can't name names, but a certain German automaker made it known to us that they were keenly aware of a GRM thread detailing the rebuilding of a glorified minivan....

My takeaway from that thread and the wider exposure it got was that the reputation of that automaker got dragged a bit, despite their position making sense from a cost perspective. 

NickD said:

Auto enthusiasts demanded a smaller, lighter Camaro. GM responded with the 6th-gen Camaro which was smaller and significantly lighter, as well as awesomely capable. And then sales immediately took a nose-dive and it went from beating the Mustang to trailing the 10 year old Challenger and development of the 7th-gen has been cancelled.

To be fair, the new Mustang was/is amazing to drive and quite practical and very very attractive. The Camaro was/is slightly better to drive but also impossible to see out of, way less practical and looked the same as the prior gen. Oh, and you could get a deal on a mustang and a Camaro was rarely discounted.

In other words, Ford just plain beat the pants off of GM in this market AND GM shot itself in the foot.

Brett_Murphy (Forum Patrón) said:

Tom Suddard said:

I can't name names, but a certain German automaker made it known to us that they were keenly aware of a GRM thread detailing the rebuilding of a glorified minivan....

My takeaway from that thread and the wider exposure it got was that the reputation of that automaker got dragged a bit, despite their position making sense from a cost perspective. 

 

Link? Seems I remember hearing something about it but just can't bring much of anything to mind