Frustrations with interviewing in this wild job market

SV reX said:

GameboyRMH said:

I am planning to point out that the advertised wage is awful during the interview if the issue comes up and they don't make a better offer first.

That's a monumentally terrible idea. 

That depends on what skills you have and what skills the company wants. 

My previous job at Ramsay Winch, their advertised pay was abysmal. I applied anyway because I knew it was very unlikely they would find someone with my level of experience and expertise...........having worked 4 years at Tulsa Winch Group creating manuals on HPDs, Rated Capacity Indicator systems, Planetary and Worm Gear Drives, Planetary and Worm gear winches, dealing with external companies for translations, etc. 

I got them up $17k/yr (more than their highest advertised hourly rate) before they even brought me in for an interview. 1 interview started 1.5 weeks later. 

In reply to GameboyRMH :

If it's not OK, why are you going to the interview? Is it just so you can say how hard it is to find a job?

You seem to be under the impression they need your input on how to do things "the correct way".  They don't.

I'm sure this sounds harsh, but the reason you can't find a job is YOU. It is not the fault of anyone else at this point. You have more reasons and excuses on why YOU shouldn't take the jobs you talk about in this thread.

In reply to z31maniac :

I did the same at my current job. 
 

But that's what X pays, she said. 
 

I know, that's why I don't work for X

In reply to z31maniac :

There is a MAJOR difference between salary negotiations and telling someone how to run their business, or telling them their wages are trash.

"I'd be thrilled to work here because I am excited about the company and believe I have a lot to offer, but I can't do it for what you are offering" is a solid positive statement focused on what I can and cannot do.

Walking into an interview and telling them they are doing it wrong is obnoxious, and a complete waste of everyone's time. 

I was talking to a man this week who shared that he once walked into a company and said, "I'll work for you for FREE until you think I'm worth paying".  He worked there 17 years, and now owns his own related business.

There are a lot of paths to employment that don't go through the company's online postings (which are basically terrible).

GameboyRMH said:

In reply to Steve_Jones :

I could find much nicer ways to say it, maybe something along the lines of "I assume that's the starting rate for an entry-level candidate and that you might offer more to a well-qualified and experienced candidate such as myself" but I don't think it's in anyone's best interest for me to pretend it's OK when it clearly isn't.

Remember jobs are all about compromise, no one gets 100 percent of what they want. I want someone to show up with a wheelbarrow of cash every 7 days or so, lightly knock on my door to announce their presence, then go berkeley off leaving the wheelbarrow o' cash. So far I have not accomplished this, but I continue to dream.

Of course they are low balling hiring someone, if they give people money, they don't have that money anymore and as a general rule...... businesses like money. Really most people do like their money so they want to pay you as little as they can get away with. After a good interview where you don't point out how pointless existence is nor how E36 M3ty their pay is, tell them you can do the job but you require more.

There will be negotiation at this point, assume you are gonna get like....85 percent what you originally ask for so ask accordingly.

You can only really get away with getting a crapton of money and telling them they are E36 M3 if you are the absolute best at whatever they are hiring you for and/or the only person that can do it.

Walk in, be the best whatever the berkeley they are hiring for, don't be an aszhat, nail the interview, get more money and live at least a little more happily.

GameboyRMH said:

In reply to dj06482 (Forum Supporter) :

I've never got a job via a personal connection and I only know a few people who might get me any inside scoops on local jobs, although not necessarily in IT...I don't think contacts are much of an option for me.

One job I had a connection through a local user group that I attended, the manager offered me a job after a group discussion we had.  I've attended user groups through the years based on Project Management (PMP and Agile groups), and then several software (or hardware) based conferences and user groups.  I've made hundreds of connections through these groups, and the best part is that 90% of them are local.  Some of my strongest business contacts have come through those groups.

There might be a better way to do it currently (FB groups, Reddit, LinkedIn, etc.), but I found it was a very effective way to get your name and skillset out there.  The best way to do it is to present on a topic that's interesting for the group, that guarantees you a ton of exposure right away.  My MO was to join a group, attend a few meetings to get a feel for it, and then give a presentation.  After the presentation I always tried to continue attending the groups, and eventually served in volunteer leadership positions.  

I'm not claiming to be an expert at this, but that's what worked for me.  I could go into more detail and give better examples if you want to send a PM and we can get in touch.

SV reX said:

In reply to z31maniac :

There is a MAJOR difference between salary negotiations and telling someone how to run their business, or telling them their wages are trash.

"I'd be thrilled to work here because I am excited about the company and believe I have a lot to offer, but I can't do it for what you are offering" is a solid positive statement focused on what I can and cannot do.

Walking into an interview and telling them they are doing it wrong is obnoxious, and a complete waste of everyone's time. 

That's true, I was assuming that someone would approach it like I did (how you mentioned it). Not actually going in and being a huge jerk about it. 

I also enjoy getting paid......I've got bills! I was honestly shocked after Trump was elected the first time our CEO was part of the transition team and a few other C-suite level people donated heavily and were involved in his campaign. Well into the 4-figures of people signed an internal memo to send to them about their unhappiness with their about their involvement. 

Regardless of who was elected, where you stand, etc, I can't imagine sending something to the guy who founded the company chastising him for his personal politics. 

For everyone, to be clear, this is not meant to be political. It's merely an example of how I wouldn't act toward the person responsible for ensuring money is deposited in my bank account a few times per month.

GameboyRMH said:

In reply to dj06482 (Forum Supporter) :

I've never got a job via a personal connection and I only know a few people who might get me any inside scoops on local jobs, although not necessarily in IT...I don't think contacts are much of an option for me.

I think you may be assuming that "personal connection" means that you know someone with influence who may open opportunities for you. It doesn't mean that.

It just means ask anyone you know if their company is hiring. ANYONE.

I once got a job because the 16 year old young lady who worked at the reception desk was the daughter of a friend. She knew I needed a job, and asked at the company. They hired me. 
 

This doesn't need to be someone who can influence hiring decisions.   It's ANYONE.

SV reX said:

GameboyRMH said:

In reply to dj06482 (Forum Supporter) :

I've never got a job via a personal connection and I only know a few people who might get me any inside scoops on local jobs, although not necessarily in IT...I don't think contacts are much of an option for me.

I think you may be assuming that "personal connection" means that you know someone with influence who may open opportunities for you. It doesn't mean that.

It just means ask anyone you know if their company is hiring. ANYONE.

I once got a job because the 16 year old young lady who worked at the reception desk was the daughter of a friend. She knew I needed a job, and asked at the company. They hired me. 
 

This doesn't need to be someone who can influence hiring decisions.   It's ANYONE.

To add to this point, a lot of companies pay their employees if the employee's referral is hired.  Meaning even someone who doesn't know you might be willing to put you in as a referral, because if you get hired, they'll get paid.

Good points, I can probably think of a few people who work at companies I might be able to get a job at.

Something interesting just happened, I saw a nearly identical marketing job with the exact same job title at another dealership chain just open up (it's over 1hr away so I won't be applying to that one), and the starting pay range is exactly the same - maybe some automated system is suggesting that pay range based on the job title? It's pretty clear that these job sites (and both of these are advertised on the same platform) try to push employers into using a standardized job title from a list of existing ones, so I'm thinking that both chose the same job title and got suggested the same pay range, and just went with it without any further thought.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

You have a lot of theories of what/why employers do what they do without any actual knowledge of the subject, yet for some reason want to ignore advice from people that do know what they're taking about. Why?

In reply to Steve_Jones :

On the issue of the wage for that marketing job, lots of people commented that it's a bad idea to point out that the pay is terribly low - I agree that dropping any hint that I'm not happy with the advertised pay can only do bad things for my chances of getting the job, and if stated in the stark unfiltered terms I've been using here (which was never a plan I had) it would be a disastrously terrible idea. But I haven't seen anyone hint at any potential reason for the freakishly low wage other than a vague sense of "companies know best." So the curious correlation I ran across between the two jobs from different companies in different areas with identical titles and identical (but bizarrely low) pay on the same platform seems like the most likely possible reason behind the weird pay scale I've seen so far. Companies do weird, dumb, and lazy things all the time, when they do something that looks like a screwup, most of the time it's a screwup rather than a 3-dimensional chess move.

Why not just go to the damn interview and see what they say?

Stop over-thinking everything. Just showing up is step one.

I once got a job when I stopped the interview half-way through and said to the interviewer: "Look, I hate these silly job interview questions. You're looking for someone who can fix things. I don't want to sound conceited but I can fix anything and I'm really good at it. If I haven't done it before, it will just take me a little longer the first time".

He flat-out told me the pay was going to be low but the company did profit sharing and if I worked hard, he would take care of me. There was more than a few months that my profit sharing check was bigger than my paycheck. I made a good living at that place and I had no complaints until he was replaced by the owner's son-in-law who proceeded to drive the business into the ground.

I'm still good friends with that guy and I worked with him for about 12 years between two different places.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

You are describing a marketing position at a dealership- take pics, edit them, post them, manage website.  I'm not sure where you get the idea that the pay is "freakishly low".  I work at over 30 dealerships and almost universally a position with a description like that is filled by a part timer who is low on the totem pole.

Perhaps the pay is low compared to IT professionals, but I'm not certain it is low for what dealerships are accustomed to paying for similar positions.

Is there more to it that you are not describing here?

I once got a job because the first question they asked was " Why should I hire you?"

I told them " Because I'm berkeleying awesome"

There's no universal right way to do stuff, just showing up and being pleasantly straight forward goes a LONG way though 

In reply to SV reX :

This one also involves managing all their social media accounts, video production, some on-site event work, and some other marketing material production. It's a full-time job for a whole chain of dealerships. Even without those extra duties I don't think a full-time job that involves photo editing and web development should pay within tasting distance of minimum wage like this. I've seen a lot of jobs in the process of sending out all these applications, and this one is in the top 3 of the weirdest skill/pay mismatches I've seen.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

In reply to Steve_Jones :

On the issue of the wage for that marketing job, lots of people commented that it's a bad idea to point out that the pay is terribly low - I agree that dropping any hint that I'm not happy with the advertised pay can only do bad things for my chances of getting the job, and if stated in the stark unfiltered terms I've been using here (which was never a plan I had) it would be a disastrously terrible idea. But I haven't seen anyone hint at any potential reason for the freakishly low wage other than a vague sense of "companies know best." So the curious correlation I ran across between the two jobs from different companies in different areas with identical titles and identical (but bizarrely low) pay on the same platform seems like the most likely possible reason behind the weird pay scale I've seen so far. Companies do weird, dumb, and lazy things all the time, when they do something that looks like a screwup, most of the time it's a screwup rather than a 3-dimensional chess move.
 

You are way overthinking it. It's not that complicated on the side of the employer. They have a job that they want done, and have an idea of what kind of pay it takes to do that job. They put out a job posting, receive applications, conduct interviews, and hire someone. If they aren't receiving the quality of applicants that they desire, they can reevaluate and decide if the they need to pay more to get what they are looking for. On the flip side, if they can fill the position to their satisfaction, then it confirms that they have the pay set at the appropriate level. It matters not one bit what you think the job is worth, or even what the employer thinks the job is worth. It's worth exactly what the market will bear. 
 

You need to work. Get your foot in the door somewhere. Don't worry too much about where you start- worry more about where you could end up in that company. Like others mentioned, it helps to know someone who can put in a word for you, most employers feel more comfortable hiring someone with a connection to a trusted employee vs. a complete unknown. The more important (and higher paying) the position, the more important that is, which is why most companies promote from within. There are many good jobs that are simply closed off to the general public. You might need to take a lower paying job to earn the opportunity to apply for the career job that you are looking for at the same company. 

The two postings having the same title and salary is something I would attribute to them using the same source for data.  

The other reason could be one dealer is copying the other to be competitive without raising the starting point for negotiation any higher than necessary. 

Either way, the reason for the coincidence doesn't really matter if only one is geographically acceptable.