Fun with plagiarism

I was thrown out of college for cheating on the metaphysics exam; I looked into the soul of the boy sitting next to me. --Woody Allen

You are right SVReX! This is fun.

SVreX wrote: But the awful part of was the response. She REALLY didn't get it. She said, "But I changed some stuff". Then added, "I'm not sure how much stuff needs to be changed to make it OK".

This is a regular struggle with my highschool students. They've never learned that it's not ok and get offended when they have to redo or fail an assignment that they copied from the internet.

Hopefully they learn right before they get to college where it can lead to getting kicked out.

Occasionally as a "journalist", I am required to parse out information in press releases. Some sites will copy them down word for word. I tend to only quote the things that are actually in quotes (ie. things people actually said out verbally), and rewrite the rest of it in my own words.

Keith Tanner wrote: That double standard is a problem :) You're left with a very grey line - it's okay for monetary reward, but not for grades? That's the currency of education.

I accept the accusation, and recognize the inconsistency.

But the same exists in many forms.

For example... I am a builder. I know much more about construction than most homeowners. Should they be held to the same standard to do a job "right" as I am? I could loose my license (and therefore my job) if I do it their way- no consequence for them.

No one should plagiarize. I am not splitting hairs.

But I do understand how educational institutions pressure students to plagiarize, when they demand they do something (write) that is not in their skillset, and make the consequences very high for not doing it.

It would be like telling homeowners they could loose their job if they don't do repairs on their house in accordance with the building code.

Very few people have to write well to accomplish their jobs in the real world. Yet ALL students are forced to write, regardless of their major or expertise.

kylini wrote:

02Pilot wrote: ...There are some who seem genuinely surprised, though they have no reason to be. The sense I get from the confrontations where I advise them of the situation is that generally 1) they don't think they're going to get caught, and 2) they don't think they're going to be punished. I firmly believe that the second is just as much a problem as the first.

The further along you get, the bigger #2 becomes the true problem. Even in the blatant case I cited above, the only reason my program went from no punishment to expel is because a professor remembered a previous incident with that student, which was also not punished. Every professor says it's a black mark on your record, but it never is. Unless it's tracked and repeated offenders are kicked out without hesitation, it'll never be taken seriously.

I'm limited in what I can do about it - expulsions are above my pay grade - but I can damn sure issue an F for the assignment and the course, and file the paperwork to the administration. The grades are rarely challenged, and when they are my department stands behind me. That's the biggest black mark I can make, but I can and will make it.

That said, I'm firmly convinced that I'm in the distinct minority in holding students to this (and other) academic standards. Unless there's a reasonably uniform standard that is applied in a consistent way, I just look like an anomaly (my students probably use other words).

SVreX wrote:

Keith Tanner wrote: That double standard is a problem :) You're left with a very grey line - it's okay for monetary reward, but not for grades? That's the currency of education.

I accept the accusation, and recognize the inconsistency. But the same exists in many forms. For example... I am a builder. I know much more about construction than most homeowners. Should they be held to the same standard to do a job "right" as I am? I could loose my license (and therefore my job) if I do it their way- no consequence for them. No one should plagiarize. I am not splitting hairs. But I do understand how educational institutions pressure students to plagiarize, when they demand they do something (write) that is not in their skillset, and make the consequences very high for not doing it. It would be like telling homeowners they could loose their job if they don't do repairs on their house in accordance with the building code. Very few people have to write well to accomplish their jobs in the real world. Yet ALL students are forced to write, regardless of their major or expertise.

Isn't the entire point of education to expand your skillset?

Very few people have to write well to accomplish their jobs in the real world. Yet ALL students are forced to write, regardless of their major or expertise.

I think that's the whole issue...people may not have to be able to write well in their jobs, but chances are they would be better in their jobs if they could. If they were just copying a bunch of stuff for their papers when they were in school, they never learned how to write well on their own.

02Pilot wrote: ...I just look like an anomaly (my students probably use other words).

Which also begins with "A".

Seriously, keep up the good work.

I keep discovering that people who died before I was born stole all my good ideas and published them first.

z31maniac wrote: Isn't the entire point of education to expand your skillset?

When I went, it was to learn a particular skillset, which matched with a particular career.

Writing was something everyone was forced to do in addition to the skills they needed to learn, because the powers that be thought it was important.

Penmanship was also thought to be important.

In my college hydraulics class we had to turn in homework in a pile at the front of the lecture hall. There was a guy that would go to the pile, grab a random assignment, take it to the back of the class and erase the name on it and write in his own. I pointed this out to the professor on several occasions, but nothing was ever done.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: I keep discovering that people who died before I was born stole all my good ideas and published them first.

There is no such thing as a new idea. It is impossible. We simply take a lot of old ideas and put them into a sort of mental kaleidoscope. We give them a turn and they make new and curious combinations. We keep on turning and making new combinations indefinitely; but they are the same old pieces of colored glass that have been in use through all the ages.

I said that once... Of course, Mark Twain said it long before I did...

"God created humankind in His image, in the image of God He created them." God is the original plagiarizer.

Yeah, I plagiarized it.

(Jonathan Safran Foer)

This reminds me of a group project I was on for my Masters.

Long story: We received an F on the paper, but an A on the presentation; resulting in a C for the project.

We split the project up into sections. Each member was supposed to research that section, cite the correct sources, and prepare a number of slides for the presentation. All sections to be turned over to the group lead to assemble and proofread (two additional proofs). If any changes were to be made, the group lead and proofs would contact you.

We received an email from the professor two days after submittal. I was kind of shocked to see the F, so I inquired about the submitted work. He indicated I was the only one that provided references

Others sent emails to the professor for an explanation, he told them the paper was excellent!! So excellent that it aroused suspicion. Then he noticed only one section had references. He dug a bit deeper and found several copy/paste entries.

The professor decided to restructure the grading from a group project to an individual project based on the group survey and the sections (paper and presentation) you were responsible for in the project. I ended up with an A- (the group lead and two proofs got a F).

Ever after he explained via telecon why he gave out the grades he did, they were still questioning what they did wrong . . .

TL:DR; Don't plagiarize . . . and then ask why you were penalized.

SVreX wrote:

z31maniac wrote: Isn't the entire point of education to expand your skillset?

When I went, it was to learn a particular skillset, which matched with a particular career. Writing was something everyone was forced to do in addition to the skills they needed to learn, because the powers that be thought it was important. Penmanship was also thought to be important.

At the higher levels, it's more specialized. But it starts off pretty general, and it's in the high schools where plagiarism really needs to be addressed. Won't help us with the grandmothers of course.

Writing about something requires you to understand the subject and to organize your thoughts. It formalizes your thinking. That's why the powers that be feel it's important, especially if you're looking for education versus training. Plagiarism, of course, doesn't do this.

SVreX wrote: Very few people have to write well to accomplish their jobs in the real world. Yet ALL students are forced to write, regardless of their major or expertise.

When you're in school, you're a professional student. It's your JOB to write decently.

When I was in university, anyone who was accused of plagiarizing by the faculty (considered equivalent to guilt) would instantly feel as much wrath as the university could legally dish out. And this wasn't anywhere prestigious, not by a long shot.

DaveEstey wrote:

SVreX wrote: Very few people have to write well to accomplish their jobs in the real world. Yet ALL students are forced to write, regardless of their major or expertise.

When you're in school, you're a professional student. It's your JOB to write decently.

Actually - you're paying out the ass for a slip of paper that says you put the time in. Engineering students writing term papers for a mandatory humanities class on Dostoevsky (fully understand it is a free money grab by the university) are going to game the system in their favor. Because they have really, really hard E36 M3 to study. Which they are really shelling out $30k a semester for. There is only so much time you can spend on bullE36 M3.

I didn't plagiarize my way out of it FWIW. I had my girlfriend ghost write it in it's entirety and I paid her in sweet nothings for the work . The customer is ALWAYS right. I was writing the checks.

There are a lot of engineers who would benefit from improved communications skills.

The ability to write coherent and clear sentences has never been viewed as a negative.

Keith Tanner wrote: There are a lot of engineers who would benefit from improved communications skills.

Said no one ever about GPS...

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

HiTempguy wrote:

Keith Tanner wrote: There are a lot of engineers who would benefit from improved communications skills.

Said no one ever about GPS... LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

berkeley you!

See, I communicate perfectly

DaveEstey wrote: The ability to write coherent and clear sentences has never been viewed as a negative.

If you come off as a prat it does... (not saying you as in you, the general "you").

DaveEstey wrote: The ability to write coherent and clear sentences has never been viewed as a negative.

Txt mch?

Hip hop?

Ebonics?

I share your value on that particular issue, but I live and work in an area where people feel threatened by anyone who writes or speaks well. I often have to intentionally say or write things badly in order to communicate effectively.

It's not as universally accepted as you'd think.

I can think of LOTS of professional positions I really don't care if they write well.

Doctors come to mind as a profession that is notoriously bad at clear writing (but I sure hope they can diagnose well)

Like it or not, we have a system of education based on liberal arts, the primary purpose of which is to turn out well-rounded citizens capable of contributing in an informed and useful way to the society of which they are a part, not job training. Research, objective analysis, and written communication of same are integral parts of it. That we are failing miserably in achieving the intended purpose of the system, and that that purpose is woefully misunderstood by students and instructors alike, does not change the facts.