=~ (
Duke said:
Mmmmm, Alco PA. I was fortunate to get to see "NKP #190" (no actual Nickel Plate Road heritage in that unit) at Scranton last Memorial Day. One of four surviving Alco PAs, and one of only two in the United States (the other two are in Mexico).
914Driver said:=~ (
I saw that. I have to admit, the idea of retiring the miniature steam locomotives at a zoo train for environmental reasons seems a bit absurd. They're a drop in the bucket, but I wonder if it's really a cost-savings measure that they can paint as being an environmentally friendly move. The good news is that they're going to the Riverside & Great Northern Preservation Society in Wisconsin Dell, which operates a fleet of large-scale live steam engines.
In reply to 914Driver :
And if you want some real "small" live-steam insanity, check out the build videos of this 15" gauge 4-12-2 by Merrick Locomotive Works. Not a three-cylinder like the UP 4-12-2s, but still a damned impressive machine.
Retired for environmental reasons, so lets replace it with a diesel?
I see where Delaware-Lackawanna got the first of the big M636s that they acquired from Western New York & Pennsylvania up and running and in service. It's pretty funny that those things still wear Quebec Cartier Mining paint despite having beeen sold off by Quebec Cartier almost 25 years ago and having gone through a couple of owners since then.
914Driver said:Retired for environmental reasons, so lets replace it with a diesel?
Supposedly they are Tier 4 compliant.
Okey doke
Those old Quebec Cartier Mining M636s have had just about as many lives as cats.
In 1957, US.Steel formed Quebec Cartier Mining Company to construct an iron ore mine in the Quebec-Labrador Trough, and the mining company formed the Cartier Railway to haul the ore 190 miles to the processing plant and port at Port Cartier. By 1972, after nearly 12 years of uninterrupted mining, the Lac Jeannine mine was facing depletion and so the Cartier Railway was planning to extend the line to serve a new mine at Mont Wright, the site of another massive ore deposit 86 miles to the north of Lac Jeannine. In 1973, US Steel awarded Morrison-Knudsen the contract to build the extension, and when M-K began work in 1974, it imported its own locomotives, the four former Alco C636 demonstrators, to handle the work trains.
When the 86-mile extension was completed, Cartier required supplemental motive power. Alco locomotives were rostered by various other US Steel railroads, but their degree of operating success varied greatly on the operation. With Cartier displaying a solid record of success with Alcos, US Steel transferred six Bessemer & Lake Erie RSD15s in June 1972 (Cartier #91–#96), and ten Duluth, Missabe & Iron Range (former Union Pacific) C630s during 1973 and 1974 (Cartier #30–#39)
The lugging ability, horsepower, and high reliability of MK’s former Alco C636 demonstrators impressed Cartier enough that it also purchased new MLW M636 diesels in January 1972 (Cartier #71– #73) and October 1973 (Cartier #74–#76), and they also bought the C636s from MK when the construction was complete in 1974 (Cartier #77–#79). In total, these acquisitions were a good start, but the existing and projected traffic required additional power, and Cartier returned to MLW for additional M636s in March 1975 (Cartier #81–#85), as well as some secondhand Canadian National M636s in 1976 (Cartier #41–#49 and #86–#87). The #3602 was one of those secondhand units, Quebec Cartier Mining #47, and was originally Canadian National #2312.
In 1999, realizing that its M636s were in need of a major overhaul, thoughts were given to upgrading the M636 fleet. As a test, the #84 was selected to be the first unit to undergo a thorough rebuild and modernization. It emerged with a new cab, major upgrades to the prime mover and computer system, and a new paint scheme, and units #83, #86, and #87 soon followed. While successful, the fact remained these were aging units from an no longer extant manufacturer. By 2001, Cartier made the decision to replace the Alcos with new GE AC4400CWs. Originally, a fleet of 12 M636s was going to be thoroughly overhauled and retained for supplemental power. After ordering more GEs, the number of units to be retained was dropped from 12 to eight, including the five units already rebuilt. By mid-2002, the GEs began to arrive and were placed into service, and in early fall the vast majority of Cartier’s Alco/MLW fleet was stored serviceable. Engineers note that the last Alco-powered ore train tied up at 3:30 a.m. on October 16th, 2002.
While all this was going on in Canada, a new railroad was coming together in the US. The former Erie-Lackawanna mainline west of Hornell, NY had been left for dead by Conrail. Local rail officials and county leaders were successful in leasing the entire line from Hornell to Corry, Pa., from Norfolk Southern who had acquired it from Conrail during the CSX/NS split. Livonia, Avon, & Lakeville subsidiary Western New York & Pennsylvania began operations on the active portion of the line between Olean and Falconer, NY on April 23rd, 2001. Repairs began on the out-of-service portions of the line, and the group also acquired the Corry-to-Meadville section in 2002. By the winter of 2002-03, the Hornell-to-Meadville main was once again open for business.
Wes Weis, president of the Morristown & Erie Railroad, at the time an Alco stronghold, caught wind that Cartier was getting ready to dispose of its Alcos. He began to talk to other operators in the region and approached the WNY&P management. Weis thought the units would be suitable for their operations, with heavy through coal traffic expected over some significant grades and thee WNY&P was well-versed in Alco locomotives thanks to the railroad’s CMO, Kevin McGarvey. Weis made an offer on the spot and purchased the entire group of eight units. Some were leased by 636 Leasing (SIXX) and others by Railroad Power Leasing (RRPX), both companies owned by the Weis family. Boat transportation from Port Cartier to Montreal was arranged, with a handoff to Canadian Pacific and Norfolk Southern for delivery to Binghamton, NY. The #41, #43, #45, #47, #75, #77, #78, and #85 were loaded onto the M.V. Aivik on December 3rd, 2002 and the ship sailed from Port Cartier to Montreal late in the day on December 5. By the end of the month the entire fleet was parked at the shops of the LA&L's other subsidiary, Bath & Hammondsport, in Cohocton, NY.
The plan to run them on the WNY&P did not come to fruition immediately, and the two C636s and six M636s slumbered at Cohocton until 2004, when the New York, Susquehanna & Western found themselves in a power shortage. The whole GE B40-8 fleet had been returned to GE and/or sold to Providence & Worchester when the 15-year lease ran out, all the C430s were long gone, the SD70Ms had been leased out after the NYS&W/SeaLand container trains evaporated during the Conrail split and were in need of major overhaul, the F45s and SD45s were all dead or dying, the GP18s were ancient and low-powered. So, NYSW struck up a deal to buy the 8 Alco/MLWs, although it was found that the #77, one of the two surviving C636 demonstrators had freeze damage, and so the total only came to 7. They were renumbered to, with the other C636 demonstrator #78 as #3660 and M636s #41 as #3664, #45 as #3666, #47 as #3668, #43 as #3670, #75 as #3762 and #85 as #3764. The #77 was to be the #3662, but was never renumbered on account of it being inoperable.
The other C636 suffered a catastrophic failure not long after acquisition, and the other M636s never worked out terribly well. QCM had had a low failure rate, but they maintained them religiously and performed lots of preventative maintenance to them. NYS&W lacked a major service facility and also just wanted to run them day in and day out, and reliability suffered as a result. When they ran, they had the grunt to do the job, but it was said that NYS&W often assigned 5 of them to a train that really only took three because they knew that one or two would conk out on the road. By 2007, NYS&W threw in the towel on the remaining M636s, and WNY&P was back in the market for the 6-axle Alcos and bought the M636s #41/#3664, #43/#3670, #45/#3666, #47/#3668, #75/#3762, and #85/#3764, while the two C636s were scrapped at Cohocton, sadly reducing North American C636 population to 1.
The M636s were renumbered again at WNY&P. The #41/#3664 became a parts donor, while the #43/#3670 became WNY&P #643, #45/#3666 became WNY&P #636, #47/#3668 became WNY&P #637, #75/#3762 became WNY&P #638, and #85/#3764 became WNY&P #685. They were placed in heavy haul service, predominantly moving frac sand overe Eagle Summit, along with an ex-CP MLW C630M that was purchased from Arkansas & Missouri. Sand came in on the B&P at Salamanca and was hauled down to Port Allegany, Emporium, and Turtle Point at varying times. By 2019 though, WNY&P made the decision to purchase 8 ex-CSX General Electric AC6000CWs, rebuilt to 4400hp AC4400CW spec. WNY&P thought traffic was going to continue to keep growing and felt that the M636s, and C630M, were getting too old and underpowered. The parts M636, #41, was sold to Delaware-Lackawanna, where it sits at the Von Storch shop, while the C630M #630 and M636s #636, #637, #638 and #685 were all parked at Olean, deemed "stored serviceable".
Last year, the announcement was made that WNY&P was officially disposing of their C630M and M636s. The #636 was sold to New York & Lake Erie as a parts donor for their 251-powered FPA-2u and FPA-4, while Delaware-Lackawanna purchased the #637, #638, #643, and #685 to rejoin the #41/#3664 in Scranton, PA. The #638 is also slated to be a parts donor, and the plan is to go through the #637, #643 and #685 before placing them in regular service. The WNYP #637/NYSW #3668/QCM #47/CN #2312 has now become Delaware-Lackawanna #3602 and is in regular service, and will eventually receive the GVT corporate paint scheme.
And in a certain twist of irony, the AC6000CWs that replaced the M636s barely outlasted them. The Driftwood frac sand traffic dried up and blew away a couple years ago, Emporium ceased to be a major interchange site, and NS stopped having WNY&P handle run-through coal and frac sand trains. The WNY&P also abandoned one side of the river at Oil City, idled the line from Olean to Hornell, and has suspended operations west of Falconer, NY to Corry, PA. With no major heavy hauls, more idled track than active, and continuing downturn in traffic on a line that never really had adequate traffic to begin with, the AC6000CWs have also become surplus, and 6 of the 8 have left the property already.
The ex-WNYP M636s being towed onto the property by Delaware-Lackawanna #3642. The #3642 is an ex-Penn Central C636 that was sold by Conrail to Delta Bulk Terminal in Stockton, California. It toiled in obscurity there for decades, and then D-L traded an ex-Union Pacific C30-7 to acquire it. After the two demonstrators were scrapped at Cohocton in January of 2015, the #3642 became the last surviving Alco C636 in North America.
I love the air starters that the big Alco Centuries used. I believe these were only used on the C430s, C630s, C636s and corresponding MLW models. Despite sounding really cool and making sense on paper, they had some real world issues according to Doug Ellison from his experience with the NYS&W's secondhand C430s. In a perfect world, the locomotives wouldn't leak down overnight, or you would have multiple locomotives together where as long as you could get one to start you could pump up the air for additional attempts on the other units. And, if all else failed, you would have them at an engine service facility where you could hook them to shop air for more attempts. But with the NYS&W, they were often shut down away from service facilities and were occasionally used as a single locomotive. So then the crew would go out to the unit, and it would have leaked off all the air overnight, or it just wouldn't start (they were pretty cantankerous and worn out when the Susquehanna got them) and you would use up all the air and not get the prime mover lit off. Then you would either have to wait to get another locomotive or a truck-towed compressor rig out there to pump up the air reservoirs to make another attempt at starting them.
And proving that history repeats itself, a power short NYS&W is leasing a Canadian Alco that once briefly belonged to a Livonia, Avon & Lakeville subsidiary and will eventually go to the Delaware-Lackawanna. A couple years ago, LA&L acquired this MLW M420W from the West Tennessee Railroad and moved it up to the Ontario Midland. It was pretty short-lived there, not even receiving the corporate LA&L black paint, and then the LA&L went on their big Alco retirement kick this year. They scrapped the two OMID Alco S-series switchers, the RS-11 and RS-36 were sold off to Southern New England Railroad, and the #3560 was sold to Delaware-Lackawanna. I saw it down to the Von Storch shops this summer, shortly after the D-L took delivery. Well, then the Susie-Q must have needed some power, and it's amazing they couldn't get any CSX or NS power to lease, but they couldn't, and so the #3560 has been kicking around the southern end of the system.
I really should just take a couple week days off next year and go down to Scranton to chase the Delaware-Lackawanna. I know that they run pretty much every day, but some days it's just a transfer run from NS's Taylor Yard to the yard at Steamtown. The general consensus seems to be, "Show up at Bridge 60 Tower at 8am and ask the crews where they're headed for the day." Pretty sad that I could consider going to Scranton to spend a couple days chasing diesels when Steamtown is there, but there's really nothing going on at Steamtown. Maybe if the Railroad Historians of the Lehigh Valley do one of their "Railroad Explorers" over the R&N next year I can just extend my stay and go to Scranton on Monday and Tuesday. Although I'm not sure how that group can do anymore rare mileage of the R&N, since really the only areas left to go are the West Hazelton business end, but that's just a bunch of industrial spurs, and the Lehigh Division up from Jim Thorpe to Tunkhannock, but I'm not sure the RDCs can run up there or tht the R&N wants to tie that linee up with a relatively small charter.
\
Armies of Alcos battling the Delaware Water Gap sure beats the daylights out of whatever is(n't) going on at Steamtown. Although you can often find the D-L Alcos pinch-hitting on Steamtown excursions now, since the 0-6-0 isn't suited for anything leaving the yard, and Steamtown's diesels are often out of service as well.
Sometimes you retire steam engines for other reasons (quite demonic looking):
In reply to NickD :
That far building is completely berkeleying with my head.
At first I thought the train was heading up a steep grade, then I thought it was going downhill, then I finally realized the architect just wanted to berkeley with everyone's head.
In reply to Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) :
It's a parking garage, hence the weird angles. You can see a single car parked up on top, far right.
In reply to 02Pilot :
Yep, it's the parking garage for The Marketplace at Steamtown, another part of the Scranton downtown revitalization effort that Steamtown itself was part of. The success of said effort is debatable.
There is a pretty stiff grade once they get out of downtown Scranton though, and I've always wondered about the decision to restore a 74"-drivered Heavy Pacific (B&M #3713) for use after they sold/traded off the three CPR G5 Pacifics (#1246, #1278, #1293) because they weren't suitable for that grade. They kind of had to choose the #3713 by default though, since they wanted an American engine that would fit the existing facilities and had a trailing truck, and that was really the only engine that fit the criteria. The CN Mikados were the right size and had a trailing truck but were Canadian, the NKP Berkshire and Reading T1 were American and have trailing trucks but don't fit the turntable, and the IC and Rahway Valley 2-8-0s fit the turntable and are American but lack a trailing truck. (The trailing truck criteria is because of lack of turning facilities on other ends of the run, and having a trailing truck improves ride and reduces flange wear).
Speaking of rugged terrain, Pacifics, and odd choices, the Western Maryland Scenic Railroad is reportedly trying to acquire Western Maryland 4-6-2 #202 from the city of Hagerstown. Someone stumbled across it in the Youtube-published city meeting, with the WMSR executive director, Wes Heinz, making the pitch to Hagerstown city council to acquire and restore the #202, which is just one of two surviving WM steam locomotives and the only surviving WM side-rod locomotive.
It's got everyone kind of scratching their head, because WMSR retired the #734, their big ex-LS&I 2-8-0, partially because it was worn the hell out, but also because they said that train lengths had gotten to the point where the #734 couldn't haul them by itself, requiring a diesel helper and therefore a second crew. The whole pitch for restoring C&O 2-6-6-2 #1309 was that it would be able to handle the grade by itself, eliminating a helper and a second crew. Of course that advantage has never been realized, since the #1309 can't negotiate the approach to the turntable at Frostburg, forcing them to tow the train back down to Cumberland with a diesel on the other end.
I remember that several times during the troubled and protracted restorationg of the #1309 (turns out a steam locomotive built by a third-rate builder for a railroad that didn't want them who then beats the daylights out of them with minimal maintenance in coal drag service and then is left outside for decades isn't an engine you can just put water in and fire up as was pitched by the previous WMSR management) there were a number of people that said, "WMSR should have just got the #202. It's a genuine Western Maryland engine and it's had a roof over it's head since retirement." And the answer was always, "#734 was too small, and the #202 is even smaller, it would only be good for 3 or 4 cars up the grade to Frostburg."
So it's odd that the WMSR is now trying to get the #202. The problem is that like many of these "commercial grade" excursion lines (see also Grand Canyon Railway, Conway Scenic, Strasburg, etc.), the business models of these lines have now become dependent upon long trainsets of over ten cars to maximize capacity and revenue. A four-car train at the loco's capacity behind the likes of WM #202, GCRY #29, CN #7470 or #7312, etc. just doesn't cut it any more except maybe on an "off season" or special event/charter. The only way I could really see WM #202 being a worthwhile investment for the WMSR is if they suddenly decided to occasionally go the "time capsule" route--an attempted recreation of the WM of old, complete with vintage celerestory-roof rolling stock and a premium price for the "throwback" experience. But that seems unlikely to happen in the dinner train/murder mystery/leaf-peeper model they now have. The only other possibility I could see is that they might use it on the Georges Creek Railway, now Georges Creek Division, that they acquired this spring and are trying to reactivate. I'm not sure if the grade profile over there is any milder, but even if it is, why not just restore the #734 that they already own and are fundraising and use that on the Georges Creek Division?
I honestly really worry about the WMSR financially overextending themselves. From some people who were involved with an audit during the WMSR change in management, the railroad was days away from insolvency and liquidation under the old management and it's still in the recovery process. Their roster is growing, but equipment until recently was stretched pretty thin (until the three B32-8s arrived, they were literally down to just the F40PH, which has since kicked the bucket). The #1309 hasn't run in a year, due to piston failure and is still undergoing work. They were fundraising to restore the #734 to operation. They acquired the Georges Creek Railway, and they are trying to do a bunch of track work to bring a line that's been dormant for 5 years and has some pretty bad washouts, on top of needing development for passenger operations. They also acquired the two ex-WM chopnose Geeps that were over there and have been victims of neglect and vandalism and are planning to get those operational. That's a lot of work and expenditure for a railroad that, again, was reportedly days from liquidation just a couple years ago. And then to add a third steam locomotive that seems undersized for the operation just seems like a bridge too far.
aircooled said:Sometimes you retire steam engines for other reasons (quite demonic looking):
That's C&O T1 2-10-4 #3020, which suffered a boiler explosion due to a low water level while working a grade near Chillicothe, Ohio on May 12th of '48. The incident killed the engineer, fireman and headend brakeman. It was repaired and put back into service and according to at least one source, the first time it was sent out, the engineer it was assigned to was the son of the engineer that had been killed by it. According to that same source, the engineer refused to take the #3020 out and was either swapped to a different run or had a different engine substituted in.
While climbing a grade did want to make the water run towards the rear and cover the crown sheet, you had to also be careful not to let the water get too high in the boiler, since then you ran the risk of "priming", or picking up liquid water at the steam dome and hydro-locking the cylinders. The SP Cab-Forwards were even worse when climbing grades because, with the firebox at the front, when you went uphill all the water wanted to run away from the firebox, which made them pretty tricky on steep grades.
I also remember hearing how the ATSF was having issues with the huge 5011-series 2-10-4s breaking staybolts in the crown sheet of the firebox, which was leaving them scratching their heads. Eventually it was determined that the firebox crown sheet was so huge that if the water got low and the fireman fired the injector, a lot of the water would flash to steam before it covered the crown sheet, leading to extended periods of the crown sheet being uncovered and overheating.
Fortunately we have not had a true boiler explosion in the preservation era. Closest that we got was the crown sheet failure on Canadian Pacific #1278 when it was owned by Gettysburg Railroad. The engineer, fireman and brakeman were burned but survived, and were the only injuries. The way Canadian Pacific designed the crown sheet on the G5 Pacifics fortunately prevented a full-on explosion and it instead just dumped the water into firebox and blew a bunch of steam into the cab. I have also heard a tale from the East Broad Top, during the rough-and-tumble Kovalchick era, where one of the engines, as it was returning to Orbisonia, developed an injector that wouldn't fire, and so the crew couldn't add any water to the boiler. They stopped at Orbisonia, unhooked from the train, and then ran the engine as far out of town as they could, dropped the fire right there on the ballast, and then walked away and hoped that the engine cooled down enough before the water level got low enough to cause an explosion, which it fortunately did.
I know that Canadian Pacific #2317, one of Steamtown's now-retired excursion engines, was discovered to have had a serious boiler explosion some time in the '30s. According to those who got up close and personal to her, the boiler actually was no longer centered on the frame, and when her new cab was fabricated, they had to be careful to take into account her. ahem, altered geometry. At a Steamtown Railfan's Weekend, the volunteers got a firsthand account from an old timer who must have been working as a cook in his teen years who said he was carrying a tray of dishes when the boiler went and he and the dishes were planted against the end of the dining room in the emergency stop. In a separate incident the #2317 had also been rolled over during her revenue career, and that roll-over is part of the reason that the #2317 was always a finicky machine when it camesto her running gear, because she's far from straight. That also contributed to why Steamtown elected not to overhaul her, but instead focus efforts on B&M #3713. I have always wondered though why Steamtown traded off two perfectly good G5 Pacifics (#1278 and #1293) but held onto the problem child G3 Pacific. They had a third G5, #1246, but I know why they got rid of that one, and that was because the old Nelson Blount era fast fireups wreaked unholy havoc on her firebox.
NickD said:
Jebus. That must have been a violent bang when it let go
DjGreggieP said:NickD said:
Jebus. That must have been a violent bang when it let go
I'm reminded of Adam Savage talking about how actual explosions are disappointing, in that they mostly just sound like a sharp crack or a gunshot, but that BLEVEs (Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion) are much more satisfying in that they sound like what people expect explosions to sound like. Now make it a BLEVE with a 220psi pressure vessel the size of a small house. Unlike others mentioned, the #9018 was not rebuilt or returned to service, since by 1948 the 4-12-2s were over twenty years old and mostly on their way to retirement after years of faithful service.
Tomorrow is the Operation Toy Train event on the Saratoga, Corinth & Hudson, which I plan to attend, photograph and make a donation at (In true GRM fashion, I got the Lego McLaren kit). I was really hoping they'd use the RS-3s, but they had posted that they had prepped them for winter storage on Facebook. Last night they made a video of one of the RS-3s picking up three new passenger cars at the Saratoga Springs interchange, and I got my hopes up again, but when asked, they replied that they will be using Alco S-1 #5 and "D&H" S-2 #3021. Oh well, it'll still be cool to catch the rare mileage move up to Hadley.
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