Headline: Not so Fast you Greedy Bastards!

GameboyRMH wrote:

mad_machine wrote: I was talking to a friend of mine today. She does IT for AIG Basically, none of the rank and file or anybody else got even a christmas bonus this year. They were told there was no money for bonuses.. yet they pull this. And when broken down... if the execs forgo their bonus money for one year.. nobody would need to be laid off.

Anyone still wanna cry big tears for the poor filthy rich dudes who may have to settle for...hell I dunno what they do with that much money, a 120-foot megayacht instead of a 200-footer? The tax is specific enough that it only takes back government money as far as I can tell. And as I've said before, any company running on government money should have silly frivolities like insane CEO bonuses on LOCKDOWN.

Dude, these weren't performance bonuses, they were retention bonuses. They weren't "CEO" bonuses. They were to the guys and gals who are busting their buts trying to keep the Titanic afloat before the department of AIG they work for closes and they loose their jobs. They were told if they stayed until the bitter end they would get a bonus for being the last to leave a sinking ship. They deserve every penny of it.

Your boy Dodd lied his ass off. He is the one who put the exclusion for these bonuses in the bill. And now he is doing the politically expedient thing and covering his ass. These guys make me ill. If we don't have a major turn over in congress two years from now, then as far as I am concerned the USA is dead. It will be no better than every other socialist E36 M3 hole in the world. Might as well move to France.

Read the book The 5000 Year Leap. Then you will understand what the USA is supposed to be.

Schmidlap wrote: ...How many of these other employees had artificially low salaries with the incentive that they'd get a bonus if they met certain goals? Why screw them over? ...

I am not certain, but I believe these are contractual non-performance based bonuses. I am not really sure what the "inside" purpose of this type of bonus is, but I suspect they can be taken away under some circumstance, this would seem to be one of them, not sure why they were unable to (under the contract). If they cannot take them away, I really don't see the purpose at all (some sort of way to reduce "reported" income of employees?)

There has got to be some sort of "angle" on these for a company.

I admit I am a little bitter about the whole thing. I got laid off in Novemeber.. not because the company I work for is losing money, far from it.. but because they are not making ENOUGH money... they are still making a profit, just not as much as they wanted...

Here is another interesting piece of info:

How many zeros in a billion?

This is too true to be funny.

The next time you hear a politician use the word 'billion' in a casual manner, think about whether you want the 'politicians' spending YOUR tax money.

A billion is a difficult number to comp rehend, but one advertising agency did a good job of putting that figure into some perspective in one of it's releases.

A. A billion seconds ago it was 1959.

B. A billion minutes ago Jesus was alive.

C. A billion hours ago our ancestors were living in the Stone Age.

D. A billion days ago no-one walked on the earth on two feet.

E. A billion dollars ago was only 8 hours and 20 minutes, at the rate our government is spending it.

While this thought is still fresh in our brain.... let's take a look at New Orleans .. It's amazing what you can learn with some simple division.

Louisiana Senator, Mary Landrieu (D) is presently asking Congress for 250 BILLION DOLLARS to rebuild New Orleans . Interesting number... what does it mean?

A. Well... if you are one of the 484,674 residents of New Orleans
(every man, woman, and child) you each get $516,528.

B. Or... if you have one of the 188,251 homes in New Orleans , your home gets $1,329,787.

C. Or... if you are a family of four... your family gets < FONT face= Georgia color=#006600 size=6>$2,066,012.

Washington , D. C

< HELLO! > Are all your calculators broken??

Accounts Receivable Tax Building Permit Tax CDL License Tax Cigarette Tax Corporate Income Tax Dog License Tax Federal Income Tax < BR>Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA) Fishing License Tax Food License Tax Fuel Permit Tax Gasoline Tax Hunting License Tax Inheritance Tax Inventory Tax IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax) IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax) Liquor Tax
Luxury Tax Marriage License Tax Medicare Tax Property Tax Real Estate Tax Service charge taxes Social Security Tax Road Usage Tax (Truckers) Sales Taxes Recreational Vehicle Tax School Tax
State Income Tax
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA) Telephone Federal Excise Tax Telephone Federal Universal Service Fee Tax Telephone Federal, State and Local Surcharge Tax Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Tax Telephone Recurring and Non-recurring Charges Tax
Telephone State and Local Tax Telephone Usage Charge Tax Utility Tax Vehicle License Registration Tax Vehicle Sales Tax Watercraft Registration Tax Well Permit Tax Workers Compensation Tax

STILL THINK THIS IS FUNNY?

Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago... and our nation was the most prosperous in the world.

We had absolutely no national debt.... We had the largest middle class in the world... and Mom stayed home to raise the kids.

What happened? Can you spell 'politicians!'

And I still have to press "1" for English.

Toyman01 wrote: If we don't have a major turn over in congress two years from now, then as far as I am concerned the USA is dead.

sorry the USA is already dead..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act

Ok.. sorry for the blatant jab, but it's true... We lost more freedoms in the past few years than we have in a very long time.

As for something more interesting, I've read a few articles now and it shows that since the late 1990's that the United states is slowly moving toward the left in poitical view( on average). I've also read some interesting stuff that suggests that as cultures age, mature, and become more educated/intelligent they naturally move toward a more socialistic form of government. I can't find them now, but they're out there.

Just so everyone understands what this whole AIG Bonus Bonanza is about:

...for the populists.

ignorant wrote:

Toyman01 wrote: If we don't have a major turn over in congress two years from now, then as far as I am concerned the USA is dead.

sorry the USA is already dead.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act Ok.. sorry for the blatant jab, but it's true... We lost more freedoms in the past few years than we have in a very long time. As for something more interesting, I've read a few articles now and it shows that since the late 1990's that the United states is slowly moving toward the left in poitical view( on average). I've also read some interesting stuff that suggests that as cultures age, mature, and become more educated/intelligent they naturally move toward a more socialistic form of government. I can't find them now, but they're out there.

You can start with Rome.

Does the majority of the population want to live in a socialist nanny state? Don't they realize they are setting their children up for a life of mediocrity. Where there is no reason to be exceptional. To be the best you can be.

Toyman01 wrote: Where there is no reason to be exceptional. To be the best you can be.

To be quite honest, as someone who knows many folks in many socialist countries and worked with many of them.. Lazy people are lazy people. You're comments are entirely ignorant and ridiculous and show a complete lack of creativity on your part. Sorry boss, life is tough and if there are rules, maybe you work within them and get really rich.

Case in point.. Ingvar Kamprand, who lives in one of the most heavily taxed socialist countries in the world..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingvar_Kamprad

Best quote : "Kamprad drives a 15 year old Volvo, flies only economy class, and encourages IKEA employees to always write on both sides of a paper"

http://entrepreneurs.about.com/cs/famousentrepreneur/p/ingvarkamprad.htm

No motiviation to excel, only because you are LAZY!

Toyman01 wrote: Here is another interesting piece of info: How many zeros in a billion? This is too true to be funny. The next time you hear a politician use the word 'billion' in a casual manner, think about whether you want the 'politicians' spending YOUR tax money. A billion is a difficult number to comp rehend, but one advertising agency did a good job of putting that figure into some perspective in one of it's releases. A. A billion seconds ago it was 1959. B. A billion minutes ago Jesus was alive. C. A billion hours ago our ancestors were living in the Stone Age. D. A billion days ago no-one walked on the earth on two feet. E. A billion dollars ago was only 8 hours and 20 minutes, at the rate our government is spending it.

Only some of these are true...

A) it was 1977ish B)109 AD C)~112000 B.C D)2 million BC

ignorant wrote:

Toyman01 wrote: Where there is no reason to be exceptional. To be the best you can be.

To be quite honest, as someone who knows many folks in many socialist countries and worked with many of them.. Lazy people are lazy people. You're comments are entirely ignorant and ridiculous and show a complete lack of creativity on your part. Sorry boss, life is tough and if there are rules, maybe you work within them and get really rich. Case in point.. Ingvar Kamprand, who lives in one of the most heavily taxed socialist countries in the world.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingvar_Kamprad Best quote : "Kamprad drives a 15 year old Volvo, flies only economy class, and encourages IKEA employees to always write on both sides of a paper" http://entrepreneurs.about.com/cs/famousentrepreneur/p/ingvarkamprad.htm No motiviation to excel, only because you are LAZY!

Bud, I hate to break it to you but your way off base. I take your comments to mean you are a socialist want to be. I am one of people your new pres wants to tax the hell out of to support the lazy people. I don't mind helping a man out when he is between jobs, but I don't want to support his company when they have proved they suck at what they do. I don't want to support octo-mom so she can have another 8 kid on welfare. Poverty and welfare are supposed to suck. It encourages people on it to get off their but and make something of them selves. Look up enabling in the dictionary.

The federal government has proven time and again they are the worst way to solve a problem. The only people that haven't figured that out is the politicians . Did you happen to notice while looking up Mr Kamprand that while he lives in Sweden, his company is registered and owned in the Netherlands which has lower taxes. Wonder why that is. Want to know why he would never register his company in the USA? Because even Sweden has lower corporate taxes than we do. He's not working within his country's rules he went around them to another country.

Getting rich isn't a problem. Getting screwed by a bunch of politicians is. PM me your gross income for 08 and I'll tell you whether you can call me lazy or not.

Osterizer wrote:

Toyman01 wrote: Here is another interesting piece of info: How many zeros in a billion? This is too true to be funny. The next time you hear a politician use the word 'billion' in a casual manner, think about whether you want the 'politicians' spending YOUR tax money. A billion is a difficult number to comp rehend, but one advertising agency did a good job of putting that figure into some perspective in one of it's releases. A. A billion seconds ago it was 1959. B. A billion minutes ago Jesus was alive. C. A billion hours ago our ancestors were living in the Stone Age. D. A billion days ago no-one walked on the earth on two feet. E. A billion dollars ago was only 8 hours and 20 minutes, at the rate our government is spending it.

Only some of these are true... A) it was 1977ish B)109 AD C)~112000 B.C D)2 million BC

Got that in an email and didn't bother to check it. Still a lot of dough.

I'm not for 90% tax on anything. I believe this shows the folly of letting speed and emotion make decisions for you. We were wrong about the Patriot Act, The first bailout, and this. All done with expediency in mind before logic.

I also don't believe that a company that is on the verge of bankruptcy, as well as taking a government handout to stay afloat, should give anyone "bonuses". Bonuses to me are a portion of your salary that is optional and should be done away with during hard times. Those people chose to work at AIG knowing the dire straits that company was in. They gambled. In this case they lost. I see many of you who are arguing for those folks to get their bonuses have argued in the past about how virtuous it is for a company to layoff workers "to save themselves". Shouldn't it be virtuous of AIG to stop bonuses to save itself as well?

Also, I can argue that without leaders facing repercussions for their lack of leadership our economy will suffer again and again. It's imperative that the people who will least likely suffer from this should suffer the most. Their very economic existence should be on the line just as the economic existence of a laid off wage worker is now. To shelter the leadership of a company from repercussions is a form of class warfare and socialism as well. It is class warfare because it is the leadership taking from the wage earner to enrich themselves. It is socialist because it only enables the benefit side of achievement while taking away the negative side of failure.

If a UAW worker should be fired for being incompetent then so should a CEO. For the good of us all.

Toyman01 wrote:

ignorant wrote:

Toyman01 wrote: Where there is no reason to be exceptional. To be the best you can be.

To be quite honest, as someone who knows many folks in many socialist countries and worked with many of them.. Lazy people are lazy people. You're comments are entirely ignorant and ridiculous and show a complete lack of creativity on your part. Sorry boss, life is tough and if there are rules, maybe you work within them and get really rich. Case in point.. Ingvar Kamprand, who lives in one of the most heavily taxed socialist countries in the world.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingvar_Kamprad Best quote : "Kamprad drives a 15 year old Volvo, flies only economy class, and encourages IKEA employees to always write on both sides of a paper" http://entrepreneurs.about.com/cs/famousentrepreneur/p/ingvarkamprad.htm No motiviation to excel, only because you are LAZY!

Bud, I hate to break it to you but your way off base. I take your comments to mean you are a socialist want to be. I am one of people your new pres wants to tax the hell out of to support the lazy people. I don't mind helping a man out when he is between jobs, but I don't want to support his company when they have proved they suck at what they do. I don't want to support octo-mom so she can have another 8 kid on welfare. Poverty and welfare are supposed to suck. It encourages people on it to get off their but and make something of them selves. Look up enabling in the dictionary. The federal government has proven time and again they are the worst way to solve a problem. The only people that haven't figured that out is the politicians . Did you happen to notice while looking up Mr Kamprand that while he lives in Sweden, his company is registered and owned in the Netherlands which has lower taxes. Wonder why that is. Want to know why he would never register his company in the USA? Because even Sweden has lower corporate taxes than we do. He's not working within his country's rules he went around them to another country. Getting rich isn't a problem. Getting screwed by a bunch of politicians is. PM me your gross income for 08 and I'll tell you whether you can call me lazy or not.

I make less than 23000 a year, support a family of 4.25 (stupid cat) I hope you don't mean I'm lazy cause I make less than you? Cause if so i'll come kick your ass

wherethefmi wrote:

Toyman01 wrote:

ignorant wrote:

Toyman01 wrote: Where there is no reason to be exceptional. To be the best you can be.

To be quite honest, as someone who knows many folks in many socialist countries and worked with many of them.. Lazy people are lazy people. You're comments are entirely ignorant and ridiculous and show a complete lack of creativity on your part. Sorry boss, life is tough and if there are rules, maybe you work within them and get really rich. Case in point.. Ingvar Kamprand, who lives in one of the most heavily taxed socialist countries in the world.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingvar_Kamprad Best quote : "Kamprad drives a 15 year old Volvo, flies only economy class, and encourages IKEA employees to always write on both sides of a paper" http://entrepreneurs.about.com/cs/famousentrepreneur/p/ingvarkamprad.htm No motiviation to excel, only because you are LAZY!

Bud, I hate to break it to you but your way off base. I take your comments to mean you are a socialist want to be. I am one of people your new pres wants to tax the hell out of to support the lazy people. I don't mind helping a man out when he is between jobs, but I don't want to support his company when they have proved they suck at what they do. I don't want to support octo-mom so she can have another 8 kid on welfare. Poverty and welfare are supposed to suck. It encourages people on it to get off their but and make something of them selves. Look up enabling in the dictionary. The federal government has proven time and again they are the worst way to solve a problem. The only people that haven't figured that out is the politicians . Did you happen to notice while looking up Mr Kamprand that while he lives in Sweden, his company is registered and owned in the Netherlands which has lower taxes. Wonder why that is. Want to know why he would never register his company in the USA? Because even Sweden has lower corporate taxes than we do. He's not working within his country's rules he went around them to another country. Getting rich isn't a problem. Getting screwed by a bunch of politicians is. PM me your gross income for 08 and I'll tell you whether you can call me lazy or not.

I make less than 23000 a year, support a family of 4.25 (stupid cat) I hope you don't mean I'm lazy cause I make less than you? Cause if so i'll come kick your ass

Less than 8 years ago I was making about 17500.00 and supporting a family of 6 not counting the cats. I worked physically harder then but made less money. I got sick of busting my but to make the other guy rich and decided to try it on my own. Any person willing to work their buts off can make as much money as they want to.

Toyman01 wrote: Bud, I hate to break it to you but your way off base. I take your comments to mean you are a socialist want to be.

I lean left and feel that most of America is way too selfish for its own good and hands off deregulation has brought about many many problems. On the other hand I'm a recent MBA from a top 15 program.. and hands off is also good. It's not easy to pin me down to a specific party.

What I meant to say is this.. I mean to say is that if you're lazy.. you're lazy. If you ain't.. You ain't. The system of government has nothing to do with this. NOTHING. There is always opportunity.

I don't want to get into some e-penis contest with you about money.

I really don't think it's any of our business how AIG spends the money. The fact is that those people who got those bonuses held up their end of their contracts and AIG by contractual obligation owes them that money.

Of this way: Let's say your brother in law had signed a contract with AIG to install a new bathroom in their corporate offices, and part of the contract was a bonus paid to him for having it done in a certain amount of time, bonus to be paid later. He does the tile work, everyone is happy, and he gets paid, bonus still outstanding. AIG goes under, still owing him the $. He has a signed contract from them oweing him this $, and now he is one of the creditors to the company they have to pay back as best as they can when they liquidate. He may have to sue him for the $, but he is in every way entitled to his portion of whatever the company has to sell.

These employees are the same deal. They did what they agreed to do, whatever it was, to earn these bonuses. AIG has no more choice about paying them or not than it has about paying it's electric bill. Whether or not we think they deserved the $ doesn't matter, their contracts say they do.

When we agreed to bail AIG out we agreed to pay all their debts as required to keep them afloat, and these are just more of their debts we are now obligated to help them pay. If these people don't get paid then AIG is in breach of contract and the employees would be forced to sue for their $, and they would win as long as there are enough assets at AIG for them to get paid.

Now the tax thing is just downright frightening. I do my job, earn my paycheck, and because you think I shouldn't earn so much you are going to take all of my $ from me? How is that sort of thing legal? Time to find a DC speed camera with a copy of a certain senator's license plate taped over my own and run it a few thousand times.

ignorant wrote:

Toyman01 wrote: Bud, I hate to break it to you but your way off base. I take your comments to mean you are a socialist want to be.

I lean left and feel that most of America is way too selfish for its own good and hands off deregulation has brought about many many problems. On the other hand I'm a recent MBA from a top 15 program.. and hands off is also good. It's not easy to pin me down to a specific party. What I meant to say is this.. I mean to say is that if you're lazy.. you're lazy. If you ain't.. You ain't. The system of government has nothing to do with this. NOTHING. There is always opportunity. I don't want to get into some e-penis contest with you about money.

The example of how the IKEA guy lives just means he had other motivators than money, but entrepreneurs starting businesses just to enrich themselves IS NOT WRONG. Living better motivates most people. Those that realize the barriers will prevent them from enriching themselves and therefore do not attempt to make things ARE NOT LAZY.

I'll grant you that a financial security net is probably necessary to keep certain members of society from upending society when their poor choices lead them back to poverty, but morally, there is no reason any one of us owe anyone else a living. If every single person in the world accepted that mantra, we'd be much better off for it. That the majority doesn't just means we limp along with various collectivist measures to ensure stability within society.

yes, but stability within society is in everyone's best interest. Could you imagine what this country would be like right now without unemployment insurance?

oldopelguy wrote: They did what they agreed to do, whatever it was, to earn these bonuses. AIG has no more choice about paying them or not than it has about paying it's electric bill. Whether or not we think they deserved the $ doesn't matter, their contracts say they do.

A contract? Is that one of those things that you sign to agree that you'll do something in exchange for something else? You know...like a mortgage?

When you consider how it's all but become socially acceptable for people to 'walk away' from things like contracts, you can't be too shocked to learn that the general population objects to AIG fulfilling their contractual obligations.

mad_machine wrote: yes, but stability within society is in everyone's best interest. Could you imagine what this country would be like right now without unemployment insurance?

could you imagine where we'd be if everyone planned ahead. I accept the fact that we don't live in that world and thus social insurance is necessary for stability, but i don't believe it something we should be proud of needing.

GregTivo wrote: Those that realize the barriers will prevent them from enriching themselves and therefore do not attempt to make things ARE NOT LAZY.

I have nothing against those who get rich by their own work. I disagree with your statement above 100%. I think those who see barriers and do not try to shatter them or adapt to them are weak willed and lazy.

neon#### said: I would be happy with one breif case of $100 bills

I dunno, I could do with a pallet pretty well...

ignorant wrote:

GregTivo wrote: Those that realize the barriers will prevent them from enriching themselves and therefore do not attempt to make things ARE NOT LAZY.

I have nothing against those who get rich by their own work. I disagree with your statement above 100%. I think those who see barriers and do not try to shatter them or adapt to them are weak willed and lazy.

That or satisfied with where they are and not willing to make the effort to change. I have no problem with getting comfortable in your position in life. What pisses me off is when they blame their not getting ahead on the "rich" guy. If you don't like the fact that the other guy has more than you, don't expect the government to take it from him and give it to you. Obama's wealth redistribution won't make anyone richer, but is sure will make people poorer. Money isn't a finite resource that we run out of.

If you want some pointers about getting ahead, study. If you didn't go to or finish college, no problem. Neither did Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, or a lot of other well off people. Another good book to read: Thou Shall Prosper by Rabbi Lapin. There are thousands of others. Find your niche and go to it. Come up with something you love to do and sell the idea. The only barrier is in your mind.

If you wake up every morning and dread going to work it's time to move on. You will never get ahead doing something you hate to do. If you love what you do, but think you work for idiots, try doing it for your self you might be surprised at how well it works out. If you fail, be glad you have the freedom to do so. Henry Ford tried a bunch of times before Ford was a success. Now they are the only solvent car manufacture in the nation.

Putting up the soap box and going to the shop the see what I can break.

GregTivo wrote:

mad_machine wrote: yes, but stability within society is in everyone's best interest. Could you imagine what this country would be like right now without unemployment insurance?

could you imagine where we'd be if everyone planned ahead. I accept the fact that we don't live in that world and thus social insurance is necessary for stability, but i don't believe it something we should be proud of needing.

maybe not proud of needing.. but proud we can offer. Personally, I am thankful for it. It keeps me from compleatly exhausting my savings while I wait for this economy to turn around.

Yes, I planned ahead.. but not everyone can. Many people do not make enough to begin with to be able to put 6months worth of savings away. Many of those that do.. bought into the "I can afford it" mindset and spent all their earnings as fast they could bring in the cheques.

Right now even the people who are still working and can afford to, are not spending money. I already mentioned that I am laid off right now from the casinos in AC (which are still raking in millions a month) and that I have a side business.

My side business is an A/V compandy dealing with high end parties.. mostly in DC, Philly, and NYC. Before 9/11 I was working every weekend from labour day till the middle of june... then things slowly went sour, every other weekend, once a month... now with the way the economy is belly up, I have TWO jobs between now and June.. and I have not one since novemeber. That is a grand total of 5 jobs this work season.

I am not a lazy person, When jobs are in town (I am also a stage hand) I can do 100+ hours a week without batting an eye.. but right now, I am done with this enforced vacation and just want to go back to work

Ernie explains it all....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ8OjAB_e3g