In reply to 1SlowVW :
The tree determines the characteristics of the fruit but the seeds are determined by the genetics of the producing tree and it's pollen donor.
In reply to 1SlowVW :
The tree determines the characteristics of the fruit but the seeds are determined by the genetics of the producing tree and it's pollen donor.
In reply to cmcgregor (Forum Supporter) :
That's pretty neat.
Woody (Forum Supportum) said:In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
For the record, can you clarify the part about "when my grandparents bought the farm in 1950"?
.... when my paternal grandparents purchased the tract of land in 1950 on which they farmed
They "bought the farm" in 1988 and 2003. Grandma had a series of strokes and a bad fall. Grandpa was just old.
minivan_racer said:In reply to 1SlowVW :
The tree determines the characteristics of the fruit but the seeds are determined by the genetics of the producing tree and it's pollen donor.
Same way with Humans. The kid's genome is determined by the portion of DNA provided by both parents, but it doesn't change the DNA of the parents. The tree is the parent and the apple (offspring) is determined by the cross pollination.
I'm now totally curious if this Gapple tree is a monoecious variety, or if not.... where is the apples' daddy? He was around for 40-50 years helping the tree produce apples.
I have a question somewhat related to all this.
If apple trees are all propagated by grafting, which is attaching one branch one one tree to the trunk of another, what is the base? Or are they propagated by taking cuttings and planting them in the ground (not grafting)?
Additionally, trees can die of old age. If you successfully propagate a cutting from a 200yr old tree, how old is the new tree? The oldest age of any of the growth in the cutting?
In reply to ProDarwin :
I assume trees die of old age because they get big, get hit with bugs, lightning, diseases, break under their own weight, drought, etc. I would also assume that trees (like most other things defined as life) have been selected by the environment to be their healthiest expression if they have a life cycle. A forest that doesn't die and adapt isn't a healthy forest.
I also think that new growth is just that... new growth. It is fresh propagation from fixed DNA. The same code that wrote the initial programming for the original tree is just being used with new materials to make more tree.
Kind of like making clones from your own DNA. The new ProDarwin Jr isn't [insert your age] years old, he's a newborn. Or if you make bread using your grandmother's recipe, the bread isn't 50 years old. You're just using 50 year old instructions as a blueprint but you're using new ingredients.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to ProDarwin :
I assume trees die of old age because they get big, get hit with bugs, lightning, diseases, break under their own weight, drought, etc. I would also assume that trees (like most other things defined as life) have been selected by the environment to be their healthiest expression if they have a life cycle. A forest that doesn't die and adapt isn't a healthy forest.
I also think that new growth is just that... new growth. It is fresh propagation from fixed DNA. The same code that wrote the initial programming for the original tree is just being used with new materials to make more tree.
Kind of like making clones from your own DNA. The new ProDarwin Jr isn't [insert your age] years old, he's a newborn. Or if you make bread using your grandmother's recipe, the bread isn't 50 years old. You're just using 50 year old instructions as a blueprint but you're using new ingredients.
This all makes sense, I just wanted to see someone confirm it. If you cut off my arm and grew a new body from that, I suspect you would have a body that is the age of mine... new cells created would have the same cellular clock setting as my removed arm would. I don't know if plants have cellular clocks at all, or if the only die from other environmental factors like you stated.
In reply to ProDarwin :
Agreed. I think it has to do with whether or not you're using recycled material or just using the DNA as a blueprint for new materials to make something.
Either way it looks like I'm trimming. I'll load up a chainsaw, some pots with dirt, some rootone, and some nippers and do some surgery. I'm just afraid that my brown thumb might kill it all when I touch it I guess I'll go for broke and see what happens.
Could you not graft male and female branches to the same tree and make your own "nearly self pollinating" apple tree?
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
Don't you have some old hippie lady gardener neighbor that could help you? I meet up with them all the time.
google - identifying heirloom apples
not sure if that will help when you do not have an "Apple" to compare but there are societies and clubs that grow heirlooms and probably know what yours is , and if it is unknown would love to have a cutting ,
Good Luck
ShawnG said:Could you not graft male and female branches to the same tree and make your own "nearly self pollinating" apple tree?
Doesn't work that way. All apple blossoms have both sexes, they just can't self-fertilize. It's not like Holly trees where you need a male and a female plant.
But I could graft on a different apple branch or three.
It has to do with meiosis and how the chromosomes split. It prevents genetic stagnation and promotes diversity in plants where that is a benefit. For instance, many of the monocotyledonous plants like grasses don't care about diversity. There are already diverse examples. They care about survival and proliferation during their short life. Something more complex like a fruit tree would benefit greatly from careful and diverse reproduction. If it spreads a different seed every year over it's long life, the chances of one of them being suitable for thriving are much greater.
californiamilleghia said:google - identifying heirloom apples
not sure if that will help when you do not have an "Apple" to compare but there are societies and clubs that grow heirlooms and probably know what yours is , and if it is unknown would love to have a cutting ,
Good Luck
Ooh... good idea.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to ProDarwin :
Either way it looks like I'm trimming. I'll load up a chainsaw, some pots with dirt, some rootone, and some nippers and do some surgery. I'm just afraid that my brown thumb might kill it all when I touch it I guess I'll go for broke and see what happens.
So, question. Is there a time limit on this? Is the farm being sold? Is something happening that is pushing this?
If there is, no changes on the plan. If there isn't, why not go with the measured approach? Get as many cuttings as you can, see if you start getting growth from them, if you do then go in with the chainsaw and trim as much of it as you dare.
Hell, if you get enough cuttings, that could count as pruning the tree
Mr_Asa said:Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to ProDarwin :
Either way it looks like I'm trimming. I'll load up a chainsaw, some pots with dirt, some rootone, and some nippers and do some surgery. I'm just afraid that my brown thumb might kill it all when I touch it I guess I'll go for broke and see what happens.
So, question. Is there a time limit on this? Is the farm being sold? Is something happening that is pushing this?
If there is, no changes on the plan. If there isn't, why not go with the measured approach? Get as many cuttings as you can, see if you start getting growth from them, if you do then go in with the chainsaw and trim as much of it as you dare.
Hell, if you get enough cuttings, that could count as pruning the tree
No time limit. We kept the farm as a hunting camp/getaway vacation spot after the grandparents died. I think when my parents pass away, my sister and I will keep it. I imagine my nephews will want it when we croak.
The time limit is that the tree looks like it's on the verge of dying hardcore. This year it rebounded (picture in the first post) and shows a lot of new growth, but the crook of the tree has split under its own weight and there is significant rot - probaby half of the main trunk is just dirt and has other things sprouting out of it. So the time limit is that I don't want to wait any longer only to find that next year it has fallen over dead.
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
There's some old, neglected orchards in my area and a lot of them have old, rotting apple trees.
The trees seem to fall over or split and the part that digs into the ground will root and start growing more tree.
Understandable. You can help that part as well, brace it so it doesn't split more, potentially clean out some of the dead stuff, other things.
While you are doing all of this other stuff, I'd try and find a licensed arborist (not JimBob with a chain saw, brodozer pulling a trailer, and a bucket truck) and show them pics and talk about what you might be able to do to help save it.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:minivan_racer said:In reply to 1SlowVW :
The tree determines the characteristics of the fruit but the seeds are determined by the genetics of the producing tree and it's pollen donor.
Same way with Humans. The kid's genome is determined by the portion of DNA provided by both parents, but it doesn't change the DNA of the parents. The tree is the parent and the apple (offspring) is determined by the cross pollination.
That makes total sense when you think about it that way. I'm going to go with nature is weird as a final statement.
In reply to ProDarwin :
Not sure, but I believe quince is often used for rootstock when grafting apples.
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
Not exactly. Every apple will have similar characteristics, the seeds inside the apple will produce different offspring much like humans. That's why if you plant a tree from seed provided by a Granny Smith, you won't get another Granny Smith and the fruit will more often than not taste bad. The "parent" tree will always produce Granny Smiths though.
In reply to ProDarwin :
The branches of the heirloom variety are grafted onto rootstock. Theoretically I could grow a tree from random seed and once it gets to a certain size, graft a cutting from Curtis' gapple tree and grow my own, but the trees size would be determined by the random rootstock. If I happened to already have a more mature apple tree like a crab apple, I could also graft some cuttings onto it and "top work" it to produce my own gapples. I could graft multiple fruits onto the same base similar to the tree of 40 fruits in New York (although those trees are not apples).
https://orchardpeople.com/grafting-fruit-trees/
Great link, thank you.
I have been watching youtube videos like a madman and I think I'm ready to try some grafting. Although this morning I discovered that the two Gerberas I was given yesterday for Mother's Day are already nearly dead. Not a good sign.
The other thing I have to figure out is where to put the rootstock. Not sure I want it on my tiny property, although it would be pretty safe from animals that like to gnaw on the bark. I thought about making a small orchard where the Gapple tree is, but that's 250 miles away and maintenance (and critters) would be an issue.
I suppose I could plant it on Dad's farm which is 20 miles away, but he feeds deer so every night there would be critters poking around my apple tree.
The crazy thing about apples are the variety because of their reproduction methods. Apple trees have been reproducing for 1000s of years and there probably hundreds of thousands of varieties that probably taste great that no human has ever eaten. There are also hundreds of varieties that most people have not eaten because they don't keep long enough to ship and sell with the modernization of the grocery business.
Bananas are an even more absurd situation. The main export variety was almost wiped out by disease in the 1950s and replaced with what we eat today. But, artificial banana flavoring is based off the bananas sold back then. Also all banana varieties are man made hybrids based off two wild bananas. Wild bananas have seeds inside their fruit but hybrid plants fruit is sterile without seeds making them more edible. Even today, the only variety of banana sold in stores is at threat of extinction and scientists are looking for a replacement.
Curtis, take a look at this reddit thread. May be worth cobbling something similar together. Benefit to the cutting system we were talking about is that the parent tree keeps this pseudo-cutting alive while it grows roots. Would almost have to purposely berkeley this up for it to not work
That does look kinda foolproof.
I did get in touch with an apple expert. He is of the opinion that rootone doesn't work on apples because of a certain chemical that apple trees make that makes rootone not work. I mentioned that I wanted to try rooting a twig of new growth and he said it's impossible with apples. (I'm still going to try)
That ball thing looks pretty snazzy.
In reply to Mr_Asa :
I saw that yesterday on a facebook group and immediately thought of this thread. I saw something mentioned there that this method is used to make miniature versions of trees. Not sure of the truth of that but tiny bonsai apple trees do exist.
Edit: https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/the-science-of-air-layering.27034/
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