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4cylndrfury
4cylndrfury MegaDork
10/12/23 1:23 p.m.
02Pilot said:

Who benefits from this? Iran.

Tinfoil hat time:

Iran was working over the past years to establish relations with BRICS. And as uncomfortable as the idea behind that group is, that union doesn't benefit from having psychos in their midst. Iran doesn't always act rationally, but they're also not idiots. They know how international politics are played.

Consider: America's clandestine apparatus doesn't like certain candidates who have voiced open criticism towards them, and who feel they have a personal an axe to grind with them. There was a major worldwide event that kicked off in the 4th quarter of the year prior to the last American presidential election which was consequential enough to disrupt normal election procedures. That disruption was enough that it COULD have had an effect on the outcome. Maybe.

When you view this escalation in the middle east in that light, and you take into account the history of American clandestine intervention abroad, often used to achieve various domestic gains (especially when armed conflict is part of that escalation), it causes you to ponder the possibility that Iran may not have played the part in this that many have speculated.

/tinfoil

Im not saying any of that is accurate, and knowing full well that crazy conspiracy theories are crazy, it's still an interesting thought exercise...

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
10/12/23 1:41 p.m.

I'm not sure how them thinking differently is a cop out.  One of the main problems people in the US have is that we feel some strong need to impose our values and ideals on the rest of the world.  You can keep thinking everyone shares your values if you want, I'm just simply pointing out that isn't always correct.  
 

In no way do I condone the philosophies or actions of the evil doers, but I'm not going to pretend to understand them or say they share my values either.  It's a human tragedy for certain, but any solution that we propose based on western values, probably will not work.  
 


 

 

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
10/12/23 1:42 p.m.

I wondered how long it would take to start blaming the hated one and ignore the current terrible international politics going on. I guess it's just easier to blame "the other side" than to look at your own failing relationships and missteps. Don't want to fix anything, just blame someone. 

C'mon Large Asteroid 2024.

 

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
10/12/23 1:45 p.m.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

I'm not sure how them thinking differently is a cop out.  One of the main problems people in the US have is that we feel some strong need to impose our values and ideals on the rest of the world.  You can keep thinking everyone shares your values if you want, I'm just simply pointing out that isn't always correct.  
 

In no way do I condone the philosophies or actions of the evil doers, but I'm not going to pretend to understand them or say they share my values either.  It's a human tragedy for certain, but any solution that we propose based on western values, probably will not work.  
 


 

 

Very eloquently put Anthony. 

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
10/12/23 2:06 p.m.

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

It is common for people to bring up the concept of morals, and the lack of them, in these cases.

These actions ARE moral...  for them.

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter)
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) UltimaDork
10/12/23 2:30 p.m.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

I'm not sure how them thinking differently is a cop out.  One of the main problems people in the US have is that we feel some strong need to impose our values and ideals on the rest of the world.  You can keep thinking everyone shares your values if you want, I'm just simply pointing out that isn't always correct.  

In no way do I condone the philosophies or actions of the evil doers, but I'm not going to pretend to understand them or say they share my values either.  It's a human tragedy for certain, but any solution that we propose based on western values, probably will not work.  

I've been as critical of you in the past as anyone, but you are spot on here. Saying that someone has different values is not the same as saying you agree with those values.

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
10/12/23 3:06 p.m.
aircooled said:

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

It is common for people to bring up the concept of morals, and the lack of them, in these cases.

These actions ARE moral...  for them.

I think that is what bothers me the most. Just how twisted do you have to be to think that these actions are not only justified but required?

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
10/12/23 3:17 p.m.
bobzilla said:
aircooled said:

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

It is common for people to bring up the concept of morals, and the lack of them, in these cases.

These actions ARE moral...  for them.

I think that is what bothers me the most. Just how twisted do you have to be to think that these actions are not only justified but required?

I know we all disagree on morality in here. For me, there is a right and a wrong which are absolute and unchangeable. Even if you don't believe that, I don't think anyone's definition of "good" can include rape or beheading babies.

4cylndrfury
4cylndrfury MegaDork
10/12/23 3:32 p.m.
tuna55 said: For me, there is a right and a wrong which are absolute and unchangeable. Even if you don't believe that, I don't think anyone's definition of "good" can include rape or beheading bababies

This is not meant in any way to condone or justify or morally equivocate what has happened.

But in fairness, the fog of war is very real. We have unconfirmed reports of the beheading of children. Biden said "I never thought I'd see [that]..." he didn't say "Today I saw awful things that happened over there which included [that]". The statement have been half walked back, and media outlets have differing accounts.

But, I would also not put it past them either...

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
10/12/23 3:46 p.m.

In reply to tuna55 :

I don't think we necessarily disagree on morality. Maybe how it's handled. But I think overall we share the same "don't be mean, don't kill people" attitude. 

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
10/12/23 4:09 p.m.

In reply to 4cylndrfury :

Photos have been posted. It happened. I am not sharing or reposting but it will make your blood boil and Ive never even had (nor really like) kids. 

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
10/12/23 4:13 p.m.
bobzilla said:

In reply to 4cylndrfury :

Photos have been posted. It happened. 

Yeah, it is real. Lots of other atrocities as well. Let's not fool ourselves.

Rape is always wrong.

Murder (of any kind but is distinct from killing, as in self defense or just war) is always wrong. Certainly in the case of unarmed civilians, children, or in this case infants.

I'm not sitting here saying that Palestine was without legitimate grievance, but nothing justifies this. Plus strategically, this only makes things far far worse for them. Now Israel, if she wanted to, could completely level the entire country and not many people would care. I would, obviously, as somehow humanity must be considered here. The point is that undoubtedly they have given carte blanche to any war-monger attitude within Israel (I do not pretend to know to what degree this is or isn't the case) to flatten them, and they likely have the weapons to do it.

 

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
10/12/23 4:13 p.m.
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

I'm not sure how them thinking differently is a cop out.  One of the main problems people in the US have is that we feel some strong need to impose our values and ideals on the rest of the world.  You can keep thinking everyone shares your values if you want, I'm just simply pointing out that isn't always correct.  

In no way do I condone the philosophies or actions of the evil doers, but I'm not going to pretend to understand them or say they share my values either.  It's a human tragedy for certain, but any solution that we propose based on western values, probably will not work.  

I've been as critical of you in the past as anyone, but you are spot on here. Saying that someone has different values is not the same as saying you agree with those values.

Sometimes I do better than other times.  I know that.  You can always ask what in the heck I'm talking about other times.  That will work.  Other methods might be less successful.  I think all of us misunderstand one another at times.

 

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
10/12/23 4:49 p.m.

Some more information, straight from HAMAS.  A senior HAMAS official did an interview for Russia Today.  As noted, they are very proud of what they have done, and of fooling Israel into thinking they might want to improve the lives of Palestinians (as opposed to killing Jews).  The bolding within the article is mine which I think are primary points.  I am not sure EVERY Palestinian wants to die as a Martyr, but it's important to note that HAMAS certainly thinks that. Of note, yes, Turkey is a NATO member...

-------

Senior Hamas official admits Israel attacks had been planned for years under guise of governing Gaza

A senior Hamas official stated during a Russian television interview that the Israel attacks had been planned for years under the guise of governing Gaza.

"In the past couple of years, Hamas has adopted a 'rational' approach. It did not go into any war and did not join the Islamic Jihad in its recent battle," senior Hamas official Ali Baraka said in an interview that aired on Russia Today TV on Oct. 8.

The interviewer interjected, "But all this was part of Hamas's strategy in preparing for this attack."

"Of course," Baraka said, according to the translation by the Middle East Media Research Institute, a nonprofit press monitoring and analysis organization co-founded by a former Israeli military intelligence officer and an Israeli American political scientist. "We made them think that Hamas was busy with governing Gaza, and that it wanted to focus on the 2.5 million Palestinians [in Gaza], and has abandoned the resistance altogether."

"All the while, under the table, Hamas was preparing for this big attack," Baraka continued. "The rockets of the resistance cover all of Palestine. Where would [Netanyahu] take [the Israelis who were attacked]? To Tel Aviv? We bombed Tel Aviv on the very first day of the attack. Does he want to take them to the Galilee? The northern front – with Lebanon – has opened today. The Galilee is no longer safe for the Zionist enemy. We can bomb the Galilee from inside occupied Palestine."

"The Israelis are known to love life. We, on the other hand, sacrifice ourselves. We consider our dead to be martyrs. The thing any Palestinian desires the most is to be martyred for the sake of Allah, defending his land," he continued. "We have been preparing for this for two years. We have local factories for everything. We have rockets with ranges of 250 kilometers, 160 kilometers, 80 kilometers, 45 kilometers and 10 kilometers."

Israeli intelligence has come under fire after Hamas launched what came as a surprise attack Saturday.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has since declared war, launching airstrikes pulverizing Gaza and preparing for a ground operation yet to come. During the interview, Baraka said the timing and specific details were kept top secret among a handful of Hamas officials.

"The zero hour was kept completely secret," he said. "A limited number of Hamas leaders knew it. The number of people who knew about the attack and its timing could be counted on one hand."

"In order to keep the attack secret and successful, the different factions and our allies did not know the zero hour," Baraka explained. "But after half an hour, all the Palestinian resistance factions were contacted as were our allies in Hezbollah and Iran. The Turks were also notified, and a meeting was held with them three hours later, at 9 am. We updated anyone who contacted us. Even the Russians sent a message and inquired, and they were updated about the situation and about the goals of the war."

As of Thursday, authorities in Gaza say more than 1,400 people have died there, and Israel says hundreds of the dead inside Gaza are Hamas members. The Israeli military said more than 1,300 people, including 222 soldiers, have been killed in Israel. U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken, who has been dispatched by President Biden to Israel, said Thursday said at least 25 Americans are among the dead. Hamas militants are said to have kidnapped more than 150 people being held hostage.

During the Oct. 8 interview, Baraka also spoke of a potential prisoner swap deal.

"There are also Palestinian prisoners outside of Israel, in European countries," the Russia Today interviewer posed. "There are also prisoners in the U.S. We want them. Of course. There are Hamas members sentenced for life in the U.S.," Baraka responded. "We want them too. Of course. We demand that the U.S. free our sons from prisons. The U.S. conducts prisoner swaps. Only recently, it did one with Iran. Why wouldn't it conduct a prisoner swap with us? After all, it is participating in this war. Biden, the highest authority in the U.S., declared that he stands with Israel against Hamas and the Palestinian people. Therefore, he is a partner to this aggression, he must pay the price."

The Biden administration brokered a $6 billion prisoner swap deal with Iran last month, but since Hamas’ attacks in Israel, even some Democrats have joined Republicans in demanding the White House rescind those funds. National Security Council spokesman John Kirby told reporters Wednesday no current evidence directly linked Iran to the attacks in Israel, though admitted Tehran held "broad complicity" in bolstering Hamas, Hezbollah in bordering Lebanon, and other terrorist groups.

Baraka applauded Iran during the TV interview for their financial and arms support for Hamas.

"Our allies are those that support us with weapons and money. First and foremost it is Iran that is giving us money and weapons," Baraka said. "There is also Hezbollah, and the Arab and Islamic people who are standing by us. There are countries that support us politically. Even Russia sympathizes with us. Even the Russians sent us messages yesterday morning. They sympathize with us. Russia is happy that America is getting embroiled in Palestine. It alleviates the pressure on the Russians in Ukraine. One war eases the pressure in another war. So we are not alone on the battlefield."

https://news.yahoo.com/senior-hamas-official-admits-israel-173726321.html

4cylndrfury
4cylndrfury MegaDork
10/12/23 4:54 p.m.
bobzilla said:

In reply to 4cylndrfury :

Photos have been posted. It happened. I am not sharing or reposting but it will make your blood boil and Ive never even had (nor really like) kids. 

speaking objectively, photos are easy to take from this and attribute to that. Im just saying its possible that theyre not from the past week...just that its possible. I recognize that its likely they did come from this week - Occams razor and all that.

regardless, attrocities are abundant right now. I denounce them all, fully.

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
10/12/23 4:59 p.m.

Also of note is we are likely entering the period of "who has more dead babies" race. As Israel strikes into Gaza, warns civilians to move from targets (I cannot say how thorough this is) and HAMAS encourages them to stay, more and more Palestinian civilians will be seen dead.  (According to the above, even those killed want to be killed!)

I am also pretty sure, when you hear the numbers of Palestinian dead, that includes the almost 1500 (?) that where killed inside Israel while murdering civilians.  Those killed in Israel, where bulldozed into pits BTW.  Which of course is very disrespectful, but a sign of how much the Israelis don't give an F anymore.

There is a very nicely produced video going around, shot and produced by HAMAS showing them heroically digging up water pipes (you know, to supply drinking water and such), pipes likely supplied by EU donations, and converting them into rockets, to shoot at civilian filled cities in Israel.

In a way, it's rather refreshing being able to easily confirm many of these absurdities, by admission of those doing them.  In contrast to Russia, who vehemently denies almost anything that will make them look bad. You always have to wonder with such stories if they are indeed entirely true, since each side is very much motivated to move the needle one way or another.  Certainly not the case here.

VolvoHeretic
VolvoHeretic Dork
10/12/23 6:05 p.m.

A quick lesson on how Hamas came to power in the Gaza Strip just in case it hasn't been discussed already. Pay attention to the people thrown off of tall roofs:

Wikipedia.org: Battle of Gaza (2007)

This conflict is an example of what always happens every time people let thousands of years old religions control their lives. Doesn't matter which religion it is...

Steve_Jones
Steve_Jones UltraDork
10/12/23 6:12 p.m.
bobzilla said:
aircooled said:

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

It is common for people to bring up the concept of morals, and the lack of them, in these cases.

These actions ARE moral...  for them.

I think that is what bothers me the most. Just how twisted do you have to be to think that these actions are not only justified but required?

If you have been taught from birth that the end justifies the means and all non believers must die, it's not hard to see how/why it happens. Like all religions, those who believe think all who don't are wrong and must be saved/educated as opposed to just leaving them alone. 

vwcorvette (Forum Supporter)
vwcorvette (Forum Supporter) UberDork
10/12/23 6:40 p.m.
VolvoHeretic said:

A quick lesson on how Hamas came to power in the Gaza Strip just in case it hasn't been discussed already. Pay attention to the people thrown off of tall roofs:

Wikipedia.org: Battle of Gaza (2007)

This conflict is an example of what always happens every time people let thousands of years old religions control their lives. Doesn't matter which religion it is...

As an avowed atheist I should be able to agree with you, but I cannot. I have been discovering Buddhism and meditation and I would argue rather that EGO is the base for all the disagreement, conflict, and harm. You need only your ego to justify your actions. Religions just provide good cover.

Kreb (Forum Supporter)
Kreb (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
10/12/23 6:41 p.m.
VolvoHeretic said:

This conflict is an example of what always happens every time people let thousands of years old religions control their lives. Doesn't matter which religion it is...

I'm not religious, but that's way too broad a statement. Christians have primarily curtailed their murderous tendencies as have most Asian religions and others. And even the vast majority of Muslims live peacefully with their neighbors. I will throw out that the more "fundamentalist" a sect is, the more likely they are to cause trouble. A rational individual with a sense of perspective will look at any religious teaching and realize that it's going to have its flaws and things that need updating, whereas someone who cedes their intellect to the interpretations of others is much more likely to commit atrocities.  

4cylndrfury
4cylndrfury MegaDork
10/12/23 7:26 p.m.
Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:   A rational individual with a sense of perspective will look at any religious teaching and realize that it's going to have its flaws and things that need updating, whereas someone who cedes their intellect to the interpretations of others is much more likely to commit atrocities.  

Very much this^

VolvoHeretic
VolvoHeretic Dork
10/12/23 7:35 p.m.

In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :

At least in the USA, our constitution prevents any one religion from taking over our government, I hope. I don't want to be the reason this thread gets shut down so I will leave it with this: I'm afraid that recent history suggests that the Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Hindu all hate each other, I read about it every day in the news.

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
10/12/23 8:09 p.m.

In reply to VolvoHeretic :

They way I look at it is: If you tell "tribes" of people they hate each other enough.... eventually they will start thinking it themselves (very relevant to this thread).

Hate / drama sells gets views (used to be "sells newspapers")

1% of the population are always going to be a-holes. Don't let anyone tell you they are representative of whatever "tribe" they happen to be assigned to (not super applicable to this topic, but is reasonable for the US I think).

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
10/12/23 8:23 p.m.
aircooled said:

In reply to VolvoHeretic :

They way I look at it is: If you tell "tribes" of people they hate each other enough.... eventually they will start thinking it themselves (very relevant to this thread).

Hate / drama sells gets views (used to be "sells newspapers")

1% of the population are always going to be a-holes. Don't let anyone tell you they are representative of whatever "tribe" they happen to be assigned to (not super applicable to this topic, but is reasonable for the US I think).

We're going to drag this thread way far off topic if we keep going on religion. I have to also say, as a devoted Christian, an ordained deacon, and someone who tries very hard to raise my family that way, that I'm alarmed by the equivalency being hinted at here. I can say without reservation that the bible teaches us to love one another. There is simply is no exception. While Christianity, along with every other religion and system of thought has been abused and used to manipulate for thousands of years, it is at best intellectually dishonest to claim that religion is somehow the root cause of this.

Opti
Opti SuperDork
10/12/23 9:02 p.m.
VolvoHeretic said:

This conflict is an example of what always happens every time people let thousands of years old religions control their lives. Doesn't matter which religion it is...

This reeks of rebellious teenager edge lord stuff and is about as far away as someone can get from reasoned commentary.

All I'll say is I'll pray you are blessed with better critical thinking skills.

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