In reply to Xceler8x :
You keep stating things as facts that at best are more nuanced that you are portraying, or at worst just plain not backed up by fact, but rather opinion stated as fact. You appear to be in a self confirming cycle of your opinions.
I get the cynicism and realpolitik conversations occurring here. The world requires pragmatists and pessimists just as it requires optimists. I would say that the US's position is measurably weaker worldwide now whereas when we stood with our NATO allies without question, we were stronger.
Do you have any proof of that? I argue that for a long time we gave up much of our power to weaker countries and let them guide much of our values. We got along to get along while at the same time we picked up the check. I see that the U.S. is standing up for itself on the world stage and demonstrating strength. I don't believe other countries are seeing weakness. They see it as a strength, and rather than just take the U.S. for granted, they need invest more on maintaining their side of the relationship.
That's the gist. I talk about supporting Ukraine as "the right thing to do" because NATO has kept the world out of world war since WW2. The weakening of NATO does not benefit us, Ukraine, or anyone else except Putin.
NATO has not kept the U.S. out of WW3, the U.S. has kept NATO out of WW3. And it's a moot point anyway, because UKRAINE IS NOT PART OF NATO. No NATO nations were attacked by Russia. The country that they attacked was a former Soviet state and likely still would be if it were not for the U.S.. NATO is stronger than it was before the war, because they are acknowledging the threat and preparing themselves Vs. just relying on Uncle Sam.
The right thing to do benefits us in that regard as well as shoring up our unified front to halt wars of aggression that could destabilize Europe. Where all of the world wars have started. Do we want Putin to take Ukraine, be re-admitted into world trade, then turn around and use the funds acquired, as well as resources, to wage further war in Europe?
We have done that. Unfortunately, Ukraine is not the NATO front. Again, not NATO. You can't just make up the front of our NATO alliance, and add on other countries arbitrarily. What you are describing- bringing NATO in to make a united stand on the Ukrainian front against Russia would be a giant leap towards WW3.
We can halt Putin in his tracks, as we have, by merely giving Ukraine our old, outdated munitions we'd have to destroy and replace anyway.
You are correct, and we have done that. But I think you are failing to see the reality of what that means. Stopping him in his tracks has meant years of death and destruction in the form of a stalemate. Not an optimal solution. Better than having Ukraine over run, but far from winning the war.
I've been surprised at the people who haven't condemned Putin's actions. Last I checked, saying you weren't on the side of a war criminal didn't count as politics, it was just being a kind and decent person
I don't think I've seen a single person saying that they were on the side if Putin. Just being on the side of reality doesn't make one for Putin. We can all live in fantasy land and complain that Ukraine deserves that we send them over our laser wielding unicorns, but that isn't going to change anything.
If you are talking about the UN vote, do you not see that a meaningless vote that serves no purpose when trying to enter into negotiation? Maybe speak softly and carry a big stick is a better strategy?
As a counterpoint to my own posts. I've tried hard to be analytical and reasonable when discussing the best strategies that have been presented to achieve the most favorable outcome. I realize that can sound cold. But I completely understand desire to fight. Russia has done some horrible things to the Ukrainian people. It's easy to say "just stop the fighting" from half a world away. Much harder to accept a peace deal with those how have committed atrocities against your friends and family. I think we are doing the right thing by offering Ukraine a choice to stop the fighting, but in the end it's their choice and they need to do whatever they feel is right for them. I'd love to see Putin reject a reasonable peace deal, the U.S. increase defensive and offensive aid, and Ukraine drive Russia out. But there is a lot of risk involved in that strategy.
Well I guess this is it since Xceler8x and Boost_Crazy are just going to fly this airplane right into the ground.
For anyone who might like some historical perspective on previous US presidents and their foreign policy positions and approaches, Michael Lind has a good primer.
In reply to Stampie :
Well I guess this is it since Xceler8x and Boost_Crazy are just going to fly this airplane right into the ground.
I'm good. I don't see the need to respond to anything further on the topic unless the situation changes. I don't see myself as the pilot though. I think I'm the one in the tower asking him to pull up. But whatever, if it's not helpful, it's just a waste of everyone's time.
Xceler8x said:Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:I was listening to Starmers speech in front of the emergency EU meeting on Sunday, and thought it was a pretty impressive piece of statesmanship. Rallying the troops while not provoking Trump or Putin.
That's called statesmanship and professionalism. As opposed to causing an international crisis.
Causing an international crisis can have its uses.
02Pilot said:Xceler8x said:Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:I was listening to Starmers speech in front of the emergency EU meeting on Sunday, and thought it was a pretty impressive piece of statesmanship. Rallying the troops while not provoking Trump or Putin.
That's called statesmVideosanship and professionalism. As opposed to causing an international crisis.
Causing an international crisis can have its uses.
We shall all see how useful this mornings manufactured crisis is.
02Pilot said:Xceler8x said:Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:I was listening to Starmers speech in front of the emergency EU meeting on Sunday, and thought it was a pretty impressive piece of statesmanship. Rallying the troops while not provoking Trump or Putin.
That's called statesmanship and professionalism. As opposed to causing an international crisis.
Causing an international crisis can have its uses.
Yes, we shall see how useful this morning's manufactured crisis is.
Well it looks like the situation is changing. From Zelenskyy on X...
Volodymyr Zelenskyy / Володимир Зеленський
I would like to reiterate Ukraine’s commitment to peace. None of us wants an endless war. Ukraine is ready to come to the negotiating table as soon as possible to bring lasting peace closer. Nobody wants peace more than Ukrainians. My team and I stand ready to work under President Trump’s strong leadership to get a peace that lasts. We are ready to work fast to end the war, and the first stages could be the release of prisoners and truce in the sky — ban on missiles, long-ranged drones, bombs on energy and other civilian infrastructure — and truce in the sea immediately, if Russia will do the same. Then we want to move very fast through all next stages and to work with the US to agree a strong final deal. We do really value how much America has done to help Ukraine maintain its sovereignty and independence. And we remember the moment when things changed when President Trump provided Ukraine with Javelins. We are grateful for this. Our meeting in Washington, at the White House on Friday, did not go the way it was supposed to be. It is regrettable that it happened this way. It is time to make things right. We would like future cooperation and communication to be constructive. Regarding the agreement on minerals and security, Ukraine is ready to sign it in any time and in any convenient format. We see this agreement as a step toward greater security and solid security guarantees, and I truly hope it will work effectively.
On the unfortunate side, I ran across this (this was today). This is near Dnipro. Russia clearly had a drone observing the area (there is video) and a cluster munition was used.
Missile strike by the Iskander-M OTRK on the formation area of the 157th separate brigade of the Ukrainian Armed Forces at the Novomoskovsky training ground near the settlement of Cherkasskoye in the Dnipropetrovsk region. According to a source, the strike resulted in losses of up to 150 Ukrainian servicemen, including up to 30 instructors.
In reply to aircooled :
Keep in mind, any place that seemed well hidden away from Russian eyes no longer is.
In reply to QuasiMofo (John Brown) :
That is my biggest fear in all of this, is the US now giving information on Ukranian positions/assets to Russia to force a "peace" deal? It would have seemed farfeched not very long ago. Now it's certainly not out of the question.
In reply to 06HHR (Forum Supporter) :
That sounds way into tinfoil hat theory.
In reply to 06HHR (Forum Supporter) :
Yeah, I think you are wandering well into serious conspiracy stuff there. I would consider that wildly, wildly unlikely and the Ukrainians certainly don't need any reminders that this war is horrific for them.
I would not consider the timing of that information. I just happened across it. Generally, negative news coming out of Ukraine is very hard to find. E.g. I am sure many similar things have happened, you just don't hear about it. They have been doing a pretty good job of keeping the intel leaks down. A wild contrast to Russia at the beginning of this!
Be aware that not only to the Russians have long range drones that can fly over much of Ukraine (what the video I saw was from), they have satellites.
In reply to Boost_Crazy :
It does sound that way, and for bob's sake I hope it not remotely true. But we live in interesting times, the status quo has changed.
I have to admit to enjoying samples of peoples extreme viewpoints. I just wish that it could happen without devolving into hostility.
Can we just not get this thread closed? There is so much good information and analysis here.
More fallout? May be behind a paywall... https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/05/us/politics/cia-director-ukraine-intelligence.html
Here is a non-paywall of the same topic.
This, and the aid freeze, of course may not be in affect anymore (or for long) based on the message Ukraine sent out (above).
Things are shifting so fast, it's a bit hard to get a true perspective at this point.
...Statements from national security adviser Mike Waltz and CIA Director John Ratcliffe on Wednesday morning indicated that a pause in intelligence sharing is in place but the extent of the limitations was not clear. Both officials also suggested that the pause may be short-lived if the president can be satisfied that Ukraine has taken steps towards negotiations to end the war...
https://www.cnn.com/2025/03/05/politics/us-pause-intelligence-support-ukraine/index.html
If this post gets the thread locked I apologize, but damn.. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-plans-revoke-legal-status-ukrainians-who-fled-us-sources-say-2025-03-06/
06HHR (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to QuasiMofo (John Brown) :
That is my biggest fear in all of this, is the US now giving information on Ukranian positions/assets to Russia to force a "peace" deal? It would have seemed farfeched not very long ago. Now it's certainly not out of the question.
In reply to 06HHR (Forum Supporter) :
Apologizing for getting the thread locked is not the same as doing your best to not get the thread locked. Please stop with the tinfoil E36 M3.
Maybe there needs to be a different thread for discussion of the more risqué aspects of the fallout from Whitehouse incident and speculation?
That way this thread doesnt get locked?
It's clear that we're going to have to learn to walk a fine line here. It's become impossible to discuss this war without a discussion of the Trump administration's actions. I think the best way to handle it is to try and do it as dispassionately as possible. It's fine to discuss the possible repercussions of the administration's actions, but we need to keep the emotions out of it as much as possible. I recognize that that is tough for a lot of us, myself included, but it's the best way to keep the thread going, IMO.
You'll need to log in to post.
