History in the Making: Russian Invasion

93EXCivic said:

In reply to pheller :

This no fly zone idea is a great way to start WW3. I am hoping since the US said no, the rest of Europe will back off of that idea. That is basically declaring war on Russia.

I hate to say it but other then turning off the gas, continuing current sanctions and continuing to send weapons, I don't see anything else we can do for the Ukrainians

Was thinking earlier today about how we did a no fly over Iraq to help the Kurdish but we don't want to poke the bear in this case.  Yes I understand the differences but where's the line?

In reply to Stampie :

In an ideal world, there would be no difference but we live in a world with weapons that could end us all so there is.

Mndsm said:

In reply to pheller :

Cage fight for world supremacy. Vlad the impaler Putin vs .... (Insert favorite MMA person here)

The mayor of Kyiv seems a decent choice, Vitali Klitschko, former heavy weight boxing champion of the world.

I just missed the name, but on the hockey telecast of the Toronto-Washington game they called out a former player (52 years old) who is in Ukraine fighting. He was either Ukrainian or of Ukrainian descent.

Edit: Dmitri Khristich, formerly of the Washington Capitals, where he wore #8 before Ovechkin wore it..........

In reply to Mndsm :

They're already losing against a criminally under prepared Ukrainian army.

They aren't criminally underprepared anymore. Reports are they let the criminals out of prison to fight. So now they are officially criminally prepared. 

Is it just me or does this feel a bit like an 80's B movie script? We've got a champion boxer turned mayor, an actor turned President, criminals, and the former Miss Ukraine fighting side by side to beat back the Russians. We even have lines appropriate for the movie. "I don't need a ride, I need more ammo." "Russian warship- go berkeley your self." 

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

Oh I like that plan. Let's take the guys who were locked up for being violent, incorrigible, and likely proficient with weapons, arm them, and point them at the bad guys. That's some wile. E. Coyote E36 M3 in the best way possible. 

Boost_Crazy said:

Is it just me or does this feel a bit like an 80's B movie script? We've got a champion boxer turned mayor, an actor turned President, criminals, and the former Miss Ukraine fighting side by side to beat back the Russians. We even have lines appropriate for the movie. "I don't need a ride, I need more ammo." "Russian warship- go berkeley your self." 

It's playing out like a cheap knockoff, but somehow better version of red dawn. Only Patrick swayze is already dead. 

I sell parts to a locomotive manufacturer and sometimes the engineers ask for rubber good down to -60dgC.  Nope.  Where this at?  

Siberia.  Wonder where this sits?

volvoclearinghouse said:

NATO provoked Putin by talk of bringing in Ukraine,

History, if it's going to be at all accurate, will record that the West pushed Russia into this,

berkeley that, that's some total "why are you hitting yourself" style victim blaming. Offering membership in a defensive pact is not incitement or pushing anyone into action unless the other party is an unhinged psychopath. 

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

Provoked Russia into this? This isn't even about NATO. If it was there would have been more objections, the first time this was mentioned or when many other states in the former Soviet Bloc joined. Hell 2014 ensured that Ukraine wouldn't join NATO because the potential for conflict thus kicking in Article 5 was too high. Putin could have just kept the status quo if he wanted to prevent Ukraine joining NATO.

No this is entirely about crippling a country that shares many connections with Russia in order to prevent the Russian people from thinking they could do better.

As far as China and Russia, China does a 10th of the business with Russia that it does with the US and EU.

volvoclearinghouse said:

The harder sanctions are pressed, the more Putin will lean on China, it seems. At what point does Russia say, hey, we'd rather take Yuan's than Dollars for oil?  This could have long lasting and far reaching effects for the U.S.  

I had this thought as well, along with Xi suggesting Russians might as well also speak Mandarin. But no, that would make Russia look a lot weaker coming out of this.

NATO provoked Putin by talk of bringing in Ukraine, while simultaneously flooding Russia with cash for their gas.  Arguably, this was more of a bungle than the WWI - WWII interim.  Germany was hit with sanctions that crippled them, but at least they didn't have energy to sell.

Was Putin provoked into annexing Crimea? A sane person would be satisfied with being one of the richest men in the world and his country profitting off the west.

My neighbor thinks I am a thief, just because I robbed another neighbors house, and I heard him talking to a guy about wanting to put a security system in.

My reaction to that is pretty obvious.  I robbed his house.  

I mean, he provoked me, right?

dculberson said:

volvoclearinghouse said:

NATO provoked Putin by talk of bringing in Ukraine,

History, if it's going to be at all accurate, will record that the West pushed Russia into this,

berkeley that, that's some total "why are you hitting yourself" style victim blaming. Offering membership in a defensive pact is not incitement or pushing anyone into action unless the other party is an unhinged psychopath. 

Thanks for saying that so I don't have to

aircooled said:

My neighbor thinks I am a thief, just because I robbed another neighbors house, and I heard him talking to a guy about wanting to put a security system in.

My reaction to that is pretty obvious.  I robbed his house.  

I mean, he provoked me, right?

Nice

In reply to 93EXCivic :

I seriously question Putin's mental health. After years of watching the USSR crumble and those former Soviet states join NATO, perhaps this was the last straw.  

Good point about the size of China's trade with the US and EU. Unfortunately, both have become so dependent upon China, even if China did something like Russia just did, I doubt the world's reaction would be as strong.  

Just saw a report about Russia using a "vacuum bomb', violating Geneva Convention. This guy doesn't care. 

aircooled said:

My neighbor thinks I am a thief, just because I robbed another neighbors house, and I heard him talking to a guy about wanting to put a security system in.

My reaction to that is pretty obvious.  I robbed his house.  

I mean, he provoked me, right?

Your neighbor should have called the police on you, and maybe not have given you more robbery tools. 

I get what you're going for, but the analogy isn't great. 

volvoclearinghouse said:

In reply to 93EXCivic :

 

Just saw a report about Russia using a "vacuum bomb', violating Geneva Convention. This guy doesn't care. 

Thermobaric.

Russia has used them before, in the Second Chechen War.



So has the U.S., in Afghanistan, amongst other places.

volvoclearinghouse said:

aircooled said:

My neighbor thinks I am a thief, just because I robbed another neighbors house, and I heard him talking to a guy about wanting to put a security system in.

My reaction to that is pretty obvious.  I robbed his house.  

I mean, he provoked me, right?

Your neighbor should have called the police on you, and maybe not have given you more robbery tools. 

I get what you're going for, but the analogy isn't great. 

The problem is, the police in my town are completely useless and everyone knows it.  The worst they will do is give you a talking to and tell you how disappointed they are.

Heck, the other neighbors don't even care.  They saw me rob the other house!  And I just remembered, it wasn't another neighbor I robbed, it was the same guy!

No one sold me any tools, I make all my own.  Heck I even sell them to some neighbors (including the guy I robbed, he's no angel).  I also sell a lot of pot to many of them, probably why they didn't do anything, they really like pot!

In reply to Mndsm :

Boost_Crazy said:

Is it just me or does this feel a bit like an 80's B movie script? We've got a champion boxer turned mayor, an actor turned President, criminals, and the former Miss Ukraine fighting side by side to beat back the Russians. We even have lines appropriate for the movie. "I don't need a ride, I need more ammo." "Russian warship- go berkeley your self." 

It's playing out like a cheap knockoff, but somehow better version of red dawn. Only Patrick swayze is already dead. 

I forgot to add The Ghost of Kyiv, to play the Top Gun/ Iron Eagle role. 

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

Rambo, John J., has entered the chat

Mndsm said:

Boost_Crazy said:

Is it just me or does this feel a bit like an 80's B movie script? We've got a champion boxer turned mayor, an actor turned President, criminals, and the former Miss Ukraine fighting side by side to beat back the Russians. We even have lines appropriate for the movie. "I don't need a ride, I need more ammo." "Russian warship- go berkeley your self." 

It's playing out like a cheap knockoff, but somehow better version of red dawn. Only Patrick swayze is already dead. 

You also had everyone's favorite podcast host spreading tales of Steven Seagal fighting for the Russians. Not true, but shockingly not that far out of line. Seagal is friends with Vladimir Putin and the Belarusian president, has Russian citizenship, and has a history of making really stupid decisions.

In reply to aircooled :

The pot makes it a better analogy.  Everyone in the neighborhood knows you're a jerk but everyone buys your pot anyway. No, they're not responsible for your bad behavior, but they sure aren't not enabling you to continue by supporting you financially. 

Of course, if the rest of the world shut off the pipeline from Russia they'd probably divert as much as possible to China. Or starve. Either way isn't a great option.  

Dealing with a psychopath is hard. You never know what those sick motherberkeleyers will do.