I have a challege for all you Americans out there.

16vCorey wrote:

93EXCivic wrote:

T.J. wrote: The leather belt I am wearing right now was made in India. A belt. Made of Leather. India. It is the best belt I have though, but it is only a few months old.

I can't find a belt that last more then a couple months....

I had the same problem, until I found an old solid one piece leather belt, made in Oklahoma, at a Goodwill. It had a crappy looking buckle on it, so I cut it down and used the buckle from my crappy Target belt that lasted 6 months. I've been wearing it for two years or so and it still looks the same as the day I bought it, for $2.

The next time the fair is in town, see if they have a leather guy in the commercial exhibits. I bought two from a guy at the fair three years ago. They were made in upstate NY. Hand crafted and durable. I even got a card from him so I can order again when needed.

There is also a guy that sets up at the local flea market occasionally so you might try there.

Bet 90% or more of electronics are foreign made or have foreign made components, especially oriental countries. My 74 Datsun 710 is Japanese, my fiances 84 300SD is German, her 03 Durango was made by a US company half owned by the Germans, and the little 93 Dakota was made in the US as far as I know, but it doesnt run. Kind of funny that so many poeple here want to buy everything made in the US but most likely the sports cars or race cars are foreign made like Miatas, S2000, BMW, Porsches, etc.. Nothing wrong with that though, the US hasnt made any decent cars like that for decades if ever. The Vette is about the only sports car we make other than small specialty shops.

SyntheticBlinkerFluid wrote: I guarantee that you will be surprised.

How, in God's name, could this be a "surprise" to anyone?

SyntheticBlinkerFluid wrote: I think that goes back to unions. I try not to slam them, but when they are all expecting to be paid $30+ an hour, then yeah, someone's gonna bring in somebody who will do the same quality work for half the cost regardless if they're from another country.

Exactly. If only they would work for $3 a day like the 14 year olds in China, we could be just as competitive here in the U.S. Why is this so hard for them to understand? It's like Michelle Bachman said- get rid of the minimum wage (and, of course, any government assistance) and we'd have no unemployment. Sure, some people call it "human trafficking". Pft. Why do they hate freedom?

I still believe in America. We can exploit workers just as well as any nation on the planet if we just set our minds to it and eliminate all this "child labor law" and "fair wage" regulation.

alfadriver wrote: I still lean toward buying the product that best meets all of your needs, regardless of where it's from. Theres no real excuse for buying or making sub-standard products.

This is why I own a BMW 3 series and a Subaru Forester. The BMW is the best car for the money that does it all plus drives exceptionally well and is well built. The Forester is simply the only awd wagon capable of hauling dogs that isn't some fugly crossover or pointless SUV.

OTOH, my truck is 100% American. Granted, it's 47 years old...but I'd still buy a USA made..er...designed pickup because we still do those better than anyone.

We are lucky to have many world choices in vehicles. Not so much in consumer products like appliances and electronics. That ship has long sailed, unfortunately.

As a country we are still pretty good at growing corn and wheat and digging up coal and natural gas to make electricity.

Our biggest industry by far though is creation of debt. That is really what our country produces and it has been making the 1% richer and richer at the expense of the rest of us.

I saw a bit if the TV show "Shark Tank" last night and there was a guy who had an interesting truck rack product who wanted some money so he could start getting some sales going - he really has no distribution network now. The catch was this guy was hard set on doing the manufacturing in the USA. He really wanted to help save his small town after the mills had closed. The sharks thought he was nuts and if he wouldn't consider overseas production then they wouldn't invest with him.

fast_eddie_72 wrote:

SyntheticBlinkerFluid wrote: I think that goes back to unions. I try not to slam them, but when they are all expecting to be paid $30+ an hour, then yeah, someone's gonna bring in somebody who will do the same quality work for half the cost regardless if they're from another country.

Exactly. If only they would work for $3 a day like the 14 year olds in China, we could be just as competitive here in the U.S. Why is this so hard for them to understand? It's like Michelle Bachman said- get rid of the minimum wage (and, of course, any government assistance) and we'd have no unemployment. Sure, some people call it "human trafficking". Pft. Why do they hate freedom? I still believe in America. We can exploit workers just as well as any nation on the planet if we just set our minds to it and eliminate all this "child labor law" and "fair wage" regulation.

I forget who it was on this forum that made the comment 'I buy Harbor Freight stuff because a 14 year old Chinese kid with no welding goggles squatting in a puddle can weld better than I can'.

We claim we want Made in USA stuff but aren't willing to pay extra for it, just like the bicycle example. We can design and make as good if not better stuff than anyone else on the planet, it just costs more.

Since we aren't willing to pay the extra, the Chinese, Indians and to a lesser extent Russians fill the desire for cheap consumer goods so profits can be maximized. I understand the need to make a profit, that's what makes the world go 'round but sometimes I wonder if it hasn't gotten out of hand. I hate government regulation too but sometimes it seems that's all there is to fix that kind of stuff. Yeah, I know those are opposing forces.

T.J. wrote: I saw a bit if the TV show "Shark Tank" last night and there was a guy who had an interesting truck rack product who wanted some money so he could start getting some sales going - he really has no distribution network now. The catch was this guy was hard set on doing the manufacturing in the USA. He really wanted to help save his small town after the mills had closed. The sharks thought he was nuts and if he wouldn't consider overseas production then they wouldn't invest with him.

Typical faithless Havard MBA that doesn't have a heart in helping others, IMO.

Now if we could just export all of them.... I think we would be set.

fast_eddie_72 wrote: I still believe in America. We can exploit workers just as well as any nation on the planet if we just set our minds to it and eliminate all this "child labor law" and "fair wage" regulation.

Me too. Except I believe we should export child labor law and fair wage regulation to other countries. Failure to do so, just makes your E36 M3 at least 10x higher from importation tariffs.

Ranger50 wrote: Me too. Except I believe we should export child labor law and fair wage regulation to other countries. Failure to do so, just makes your E36 M3 at least 10x higher from importation tariffs.

Yeah, I tend to agree. I was being facetious. Of course, that is yet another example of government being involved in people's lives in a positive way.

You know that at least two of those folks on Shark Tank are imported from Canada, don't you?

Keith wrote: US railways were built by the Chinese as well. Only we imported the Chinese instead of the railways...

Why did we let those Chinese take American jobs?

4cylndrfury wrote: Try this: name one industry that flourished when deregulation occurred...

It's funny.. I have asked this very question many times in many places.. people ALWAYS ignore it

Curmudgeon wrote: We claim we want Made in USA stuff but aren't willing to pay extra for it, just like the bicycle example. We can design and make as good if not better stuff than anyone else on the planet, it just costs more.

Yes, this is a factor, but a causing factor of this is that the countries we buy the stuff where its made don't regulate the amount of gas emissions and solid slag from the metal-forming processes.

Lets not ignore that too in the face of this discussion.

The standard of living in the USA forces the cost of all goods up, wether its comparing the end of line manufacturing like i just did, or the beginning of line (like designed in USA. An American designer costs more than most other countries, and so will their designs which also adds cost in the end.)

But the standard of regulation also drives up goods cost in compliance of those laws.

mad_machine wrote:

4cylndrfury wrote: Try this: name one industry that flourished when deregulation occurred...

It's funny.. I have asked this very question many times in many places.. people ALWAYS ignore it

That all depends on what your definition of flourish is and on what side of the regulation fence you stand on.

For every winner there has to be a loser and vice versa.

madmallard wrote:

Curmudgeon wrote: We claim we want Made in USA stuff but aren't willing to pay extra for it, just like the bicycle example. We can design and make as good if not better stuff than anyone else on the planet, it just costs more.

Yes, this is a factor, but a causing factor of this is that the countries we buy the stuff where its made don't regulate the amount of gas emissions and solid slag from the metal-forming processes. Lets not ignore that too in the face of this discussion.

Right- so what you're saying is that we claim we want Made in the USA stuff but aren't willing to pay extra for it. What am I missing? Yes, here in the USA, we don't generally allow corporations to dump whatever they like into the atmosphere and that is a cost of doing business. We can design and make as good if not better stuff than anyone else on the planet, it just costs more. We like breathing.

In reply to fast_eddie_72:

Making one comment without associating the other factors doesn't seem either whole and complete, or honest and forthcoming; no matter which side of the issue you fall.

You obviously fall on the 'responsibility' side of the equation. My pointing it out was to address that cost wasn't the only factor being addressed to begin with, and that there was already government regulations causing the price difference mentioned.

madmallard wrote: In reply to fast_eddie_72: Making one comment without associating the other factors doesn't seem either whole and complete, or honest and forthcoming; no matter which side of the issue you fall.

So, not whole, complete, honest, or forthcoming. Okay. Thought it was a post on an internet forum, not a doctoral thesis. But I fail to see how it isn't honest.

Long and short of it is things cost more if they're made in the US because we've legislated things like non-slave wages, air we can breathe and safe working conditions. Some countries don't legislate those things, so "American" companies go to those countries to have their products made then they import them back to the US. Yet we're now told if we dare to tax anything or impose any kind of trade sanctions against countries that allow all the things we don't we are killing the economy.

The point is, we could do all of that here, if we were willing to allow American workers and our environment to be exploited. The other point is, we're being hypocrites because we say it's not good enough for us, but it's just fine for Chinese workers. The other, other point is, we've actually heard candidates for President suggest that child labor laws and minimum wage laws should be eliminated. And we've seen all-out war against the unions. In other words, rather than enacting laws that encourage China to treat their workers humanely, they think we should treat American workers like the Chinese. (Without the American market, they couldn't sell the iPads the kid-os make. We could fix this. And yeah, iPads would cost more. Oh, the horror!) The other, other, other point is, what we've done for ages is import foreign workers who want a shot at a better life to do jobs that Americans won't do. Yet now we're told they're taking American jobs... that no American will take.

The big, big point is, there's a lot of idiocy being spewed as truth.

fast_eddie_72 wrote: The big, big point is, there's a lot of ideaology being spewed as truth.

Fixed that for 'ya.

Look at Gibson Guitars. Raided twice by the feds costing millions in lost production, confiscated (stolen?) wood and guitars. Presumably over illegally imported wood from India. They are told, however, that they could import completed fretboards without problem. Gladly Gibson is sticking to their principles and keeping Americans employed. Yes, a US built Les Paul costs more but that"s what I own.

On the other hand, I will not but anything GE if at all possible. GE CEO (former?) Jeffrey Immelt joins the Obama administration as JOB CZAR. GE promptly announces plans to close the medical imaging division in Wisconsin and not only take jobs from US workers but they are also going to TRAIN CHINESE TO BE ENGINEERS. I guess we don"t have any extra, unemployed engineers just sitting around.

poopshovel wrote: What's sad is that we are effectively supporting slave-labor around the world,

Have you been to those places or are you just repeating something you read? I live in backwoods China, of all places where you would find that if it was true - but your statement isn't true for here. The starting age of general labour in many Western countries would be well below that of China where you will seldom find workers under 18 to 20 years of age. I started work at 15 for a pitiful wage in Australia.

fast_eddie_72 wrote: Exactly. If only they would work for $3 a day like the 14 year olds in China, we could be just as competitive here in the U.S.

It doesn't happen, you don't know what you are talking about and your statement is completely untrue - but it's a great myth to spin isn't it, saves you from facing up to the real problems in your own country.

or maybe you were refering to this...? http://www.google.com.hk/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&safe=strict&biw=711&bih=470&q=sweatshops+in+LA&oq=sweatshops+in+LA&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=2475542l2479172l0l2479531l16l11l0l0l0l0l0l0ll0l0

How come Germany is so profitable a country yet one of the most expensive countries going with labour rates higher than the US?

Labour is actually a very small part of a products cost, do some research.

DeadSkunk wrote: You know that at least two of those folks on Shark Tank are imported from Canada, don't you?

Is Shark tank a Dragons den ripoff?

kram, maybe YOU should do some research. In China labor is a small percentage because the workers aren't paid E36 M3.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2078121,00.html Interesting that this article says Cambodia's government is angling to be the next cheap labor source.

From that article:

*Mind you, that doesn't mean that labor costs in China, even in the most expensive parts of the country like Guangdong province, are higher than in most other places, particularly in the developed world. They aren't. The average manufacturing wage in China is still only about $3.10 an hour, (compared with $22.30 in the U.S.), though in the eastern part of the country, it's up to 50% more than that. *

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2078121,00.html#ixzz1kr1WqmNs

From http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/12/19/business/main4677571.shtml

When Congress debated the bailout package for Detroit, Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell and other Republicans had demanded that wages and benefits for employees of U.S. automakers needed to be renegotiated to match the lesser overall compensation that foreign carmakers like Toyota, Honda and Nissan pay at their U.S. plants.

The Associated Press reported that, for example, the average United Auto Workers member makes $29.78 per hour at GM, while Toyota pays its workers (most of whom are non-union) about $30 per hour. However, when total benefits (including pensions and health care for workers, retirees and their spouses) is factored in, GM's total hourly labor costs is about $69, while Toyota's is about $48.

I guaran damn tee you they ain't paying THAT in China. Not even by local standards.

Sweatshops? Yeah, they have been found here along with every other country. (As long as you are Googling, check out the Italian sweatshops and their underground economy making all those Armani and etc clothing and accessories. Here, I'll help you: http://www.mirror.co.uk/sunday-mirror/2007/12/02/designer-labels-sweatshop-scandal-98487-20191613/)

I point out that they are NOT the norm here. In fact, the stories you linked prove exactly that. OTOH, they ARE the norm in China and India. And that's why so many products are made there.

It used to be that Japan had that problem, then as Japanese wages etc went up Taiwan took over. Now Taiwan's labor costs are going up, so mainland China is the place to go.

When you get a minute, check up on the US EPA's regulation of chrome plating shops (see EPA CFR 1431). http://www.finishing.com/faqs/chrome.html The EPA watches chome shops like a hawk. One recent incident: http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/2011/06/chrome_plating_van_nuys.php

That's what pretty much killed it off here in the States, dealing with the dangerous byproducts became far too expensive for what people were willing to pay for shiny stuff. I am in no way saying that the oversight is a bad thing; actually the opposite. But it does jack up the cost of chrome. That's a fact. People are cheap. That's a fact.

So then the Taiwanese, Chinese and Indians saw a market and started wrecking their environment so some jackoff on a Big Dog can have blinding chrome everything cheap.

You mention starting out at age 15 in Australia for 'a pitiful wage'. That's right. It happens here too. Usually someone flips burgers for minimum wage when they are just starting out. I'm pretty darn sure my kid's first job will pay squat too, just like mine did. Unless Daddy and Mumsie own the company it's very unusual to start in the boardroom.

Zomby woof wrote:

DeadSkunk wrote: You know that at least two of those folks on Shark Tank are imported from Canada, don't you?

Is Shark tank a Dragons den ripoff?

Yep. Same thing as "Dragons Den' ,right down to a couple of the Dragons being on both shows. Kevin O'Leary is on both, and I can't remember the other guy's name.
Found it. Robert Herjavec is on the US version as well. Both shows are copied from the original Dragon's Den on BBC.