I miss WFH

Lots of good discussion here - finally caught up. To touch on some terms used in this thread, my wife and I are both educated "knowledge workers" each with a "hybrid schedule", and we are grateful for the "privilege" that affords us. We've adapted, but don't take anything for granted. We bought a house within reasonable commute distances for each of us, even though neither of us see 100% office work on the horizon. But you never know.

She is in mental healthcare, which is probably the best application of telehealth. It is much more flexible for both patient and doctor, and has given access to many patients who otherwise live too far away from services. Some clients are better served virtually, due to their specific anxieties and disorders etc. But some clients are better served in person, especially small children with small attention spans, so she still goes to the office two days a week. She is not mandated to do so, but it is heavily suggested by her boss that she keep two days a week of in-person clients to continue serving a broader spectrum of people and keep both sets of skills sharp.

I design stuff in CAD, analyze and validate designs, specify and procure components, and mostly manage my own work. I do a ton of this from home, and it's great. Keeps the miles off my cars, more time in the garage, etc. But I also build stuff and run tests in the lab. I can't do that from home. I work with machinists and technicians who also build my stuff, and they sure as hell can't WFH. If I want my stuff built right, it's best for me to be there, talking face-to-face. Most of my meetings with other engineers or project managers are virtual, even when I'm in the office, and even when we're all in the office (LOL). It's just easier to screen-share than to set up all the conference room multimedia crap. My workplace does not mandate coming to the office, but in order to keep a physical office space, we have to come in 60% of the time, otherwise you considered fully remote and have to use the flex space. In practice, I typically WFH 2 days a week. Sometimes more if I'm deep into design, sometimes less if we're slapping parts together.

The other piece of it is learning from others in person. I can poke my head into another engineer's office and quickly ask about a best practice for a specific problem. I do this on chat too, but I find more learning happens with in-person discussions, because they tend to meander and go off-topic, we break out the whiteboard drawings, start talking about LS-swaps, and I learn about old projects and problems and how they were solved. More time wasted talking, sure, but also more institutional knowledge is built, so is a relationship. On a web chat, I get the answer I wanted and nothing else, if I even bother asking. But I'm pretty far into my career, so this is way more important for junior engineers. 

I'm not pro-WFH or anti-WFH, there is always nuance. I agree with the sentiment that WFH is not for everyone, it's not for every business, or every line of work, but those employers and individuals who can find the correct balance for their specific set of needs will succeed. Adapt or die - that's the story of evolution and human history.

Like most hot-button issues, on a scale of 1 to 10 the vast majority of us lie somewhere between 4 and 6, yet we pretend like everyone is a 1 or a 10.

In reply to maschinenbau :

I have heard that incidental conversation has always been important to design and idea generation. Not only for products but also for procedures in manufacturing and business. In a WFH scenario, there is significantly less incidental conversation. You end up with a bunch of individuals doing their work with minimal interaction. An idea that doesn't make it into a Zoom meeting or chat, used to be frequently brought up and discussed in passing and could grow from there. A thought that may be mentioned to someone sitting beside you at lunch isn't worth a phone call or a chat and is lost in the shuffle.

I doubt it's measurable but some company, somewhere is apparently wondering why the flow of ideas has dried up.

Toyman! said:

In reply to maschinenbau :

I have heard that incidental conversation has always been important to design and idea generation. Not only for products but also for procedures in manufacturing and business. In a WFH scenario, there is significantly less incidental conversation. You end up with a bunch of individuals doing their work with minimal interaction. An idea that doesn't make it into a Zoom meeting or chat, used to be frequently brought up and discussed in passing and could grow from there. A thought that may be mentioned to someone sitting beside you at lunch isn't worth a phone call or a chat and is lost in the shuffle.

I doubt it's measurable but some company, somewhere is apparently wondering why the flow of ideas has dried up.

 

 

 

 

This is one of the negatives I find for us having no physical office at all anymore. Especially when we say on the same side as the devs, they may here us say something vice-versa and we find we weren't considering/preparing for something we should have. 

I just got out of back-to-back meetings and realized that I may be in a world of E36 M3 for the next 3 weeks due to PMs not communicating things to me that are needed. 

SV reX said:

In reply to pres589 (djronnebaum) :

There was no limitation removed. But smaller companies didn't have a need, so they never learned to do it. Now they have. 

The example of the company in my family... it's only 20 employees. It was really rare for companies that small to outsource. COVID taught them how.

Data quality is an issue, especially if there is a language barrier. 

A lot of companies that outsource also have resources stateside who can review the work of overseas contractors. My wife's work group outsources some tasks to overseas contractors and her job is to test and review that work. It provides a good paying part-time job to her.  She gets frustrated because folks she's been working with for a year or more now still make the same mistakes. 

In my experience, the work we got from overseas contractors was pretty terrible, largely because they had no critical eye towards data quality. You asked them to make a hammer and they'd produce one out of styrofoam. They completed the task, but by the time you explained in detail what exactly you wanted, you could have just done it yourself.

I think companies also realize that sometimes in order to have staff for the future, you've gotta pay them to be slightly less efficient today. Whether it's remote work or overseas outsourcing, eventually you get to a point where you need people at the top of your company to actually know what's going on, and you don't get that through task-specific, production-only focused positions. My company, a utility, is having trouble finding people for supervisor and management level positions because we don't have entry-level technical positions. Most of the entry level jobs are digging holes, and 1/20 of those hires rises up through the ranks. We have significant brain drain issues. 

Indeed, the incidental conversations have great value, though hard to quantify. Maybe less so in certain fields than others, but definitely in mine. Even just going out to lunch with co-workers can help break the ice and lower those perceived mental/social barriers against asking for help. I've made good friends at the office. Great friends, even. But I also like being to stay home and put my head down for two or five days straight to get something important done with minimal distraction. I found a balance that works best for me, and an employer that respects that, and I'm grateful for it. When companies brag about their "culture" this is the stuff I think of.

I think incidental conversations have great value.

I also think they are a negative, because another term for them is "interruption".

They are certainly difficult to quantify.

One nice thing about hybrid is you can choose to remove yourself from the possible interruptions when necessary.

In reply to ProDarwin :

I can see where hybrid would be an advantage. Being able to fully disconnect from the office setting and concentrate on the task at hand would be worthwhile. 

Ahh... WFH. It's such a divisive issue! Here's my experience:

I live in MA, and work in Tech/IT now for the day gig. I also live about 50mi from Boston, where most of the good paying IT jobs are. The company I work for was in the suburbs when I started, and only about 20mi away, which was great. They decided back in 2018 to give us a month's notice that they were moving all of our "corporate services" (which includes IT) to Boston. We were told that WFH was not an option, so I had to get myself there everyday on the train. If you know anything about MA and the MBTA, you also know that this is pure hell. They would cover part of the commuting costs, but only up to $300. Put it this way: even after accounting for savings on gas, I was basically paying out of pocket enough to have another car payment. It was not ideal. I continued to work there, lamenting the commute and actually making less money than before, and started looking for another place to work. I found that it was all the same everywhere else, and I might as well stick with the devil I knew. It sucked, and I felt stuck. 

Then, the pandemic happened.

Suddenly, we were all working from home, like many others. In a few months, the office in Boston was shuttered. But even among the uncertainty of the pandemic (especially in the early days), that part of my life improved, and I wasn't alone. Instead of spending 4+ hours a day in the car, on the train, or walking, I was already home after work! My quality of life improved drastically, and I could actually have time to have hobbies again. And the kicker: my company actually flourished during this period, and we expanded! Turns out that 99% of the workforce could do everything they could do at the office at home, and with a little adjustment, people were actually able to get MORE work done at home, myself included. We acquired two competitors and shuttered the original office in the suburbs, and working from home seemed like the norm. 

Last year, the company decided that we were building another office in Boston, and right before then, I got a promotion, and was involved in the build-out. I found myself going in a couple days a week and becoming a hybrid worker. The CEO started planning to get everyone back in the new office full time, but our executive leadership blocked him and essentially told him that if he did that, he'd lose about 75% of the workforce. So now, most of us are hybrid. It's based on distance, and I live far enough away that 2 days in town is enough most weeks. And this time around, the company covers ALL commuting costs. I drive in now, because the office is closer to the highway and they have a parking garage right under it.

The curious thing is what happened after we went back in to true hybrid work. When we built the office, we outfitted all the desks exactly the same and set them up with a reservation system employing the hotelling model. After about a month, people complained and wanted a permanent desk, so management caved and assigned permanent desks. I found that interesting. 

I understand that WFH is not for everyone, and that some people can't due to their occupation, but for me, it has transformed my way of life completely. Not spending 4+ hrs in a soul-crushing commute a day has done wonders for my mental health, and it's allowed me to have more time for whatever I want to do. I love it. As I'm rebuilding my house right now, I'm adding a dedicated small office for WFH, and I can't wait to get it all set up. 

Tony Sestito said:

The curious thing is what happened after we went back in to true hybrid work. When we built the office, we outfitted all the desks exactly the same and set them up with a reservation system employing the hotelling model. After about a month, people complained and wanted a permanent desk, so management caved and assigned permanent desks. I found that interesting.

Hot-desking with COVID19 still lurking in the background was a ballsy choice:

https://opensourcedworkplace.com/news/hot-desking-health-and-safety-what-you-need-to-know

GameboyRMH said:

Tony Sestito said:

The curious thing is what happened after we went back in to true hybrid work. When we built the office, we outfitted all the desks exactly the same and set them up with a reservation system employing the hotelling model. After about a month, people complained and wanted a permanent desk, so management caved and assigned permanent desks. I found that interesting.

Hot-desking with COVID19 still lurking in the background was a ballsy choice:

https://opensourcedworkplace.com/news/hot-desking-health-and-safety-what-you-need-to-know

I m not a fan of hot desking, but that article is terrible. They don't even seem to be able to read their own statistics- a 62% increase in absenteeism does NOT mean over 50% of the staff will be absent (both cited from the article).  And issues like businesses losing proprietary data because an employee didn't log off are stupid easy to fix with simple tools like auto log off.  Their COVID facts are off too (but I'm not going there)
 

I'm no fan of hot desking, and I'd love to see it go away (it's an awful way to treat employees), but that article is junk clickbait. 

Interesting.  I highly prefer hot desking.  Why do you see it as a poor way to treat employees? 

In reply to ProDarwin :

Just seems disrespectful. Save a few dollars by not giving people their own workspace.  People can't personalize their work spaces. 
 

But I've never done it. If you like it, I could be wrong. 

In reply to SV reX :

We have four desks for 13 managers. It gets frustrating to not be able to leave things in drawers etc because you never know where you'll land in a given shift or who's going to rifle through your stuff. 

In reply to Wally (Forum Supporter) :

I function best with a few piles on my desk that aren't critical to remove before the end of the day. If they sit there for a few days before I get to them, it's fine by me. 
 

I wouldn't share a desk well. 

maschinenbau said:

Lots of good discussion here - finally caught up. To touch on some terms used in this thread, my wife and I are both educated "knowledge workers" each with a "hybrid schedule", and we are grateful for the "privilege" that affords us. We've adapted, but don't take anything for granted. We bought a house within reasonable commute distances for each of us, even though neither of us see 100% office work on the horizon. But you never know.

She is in mental healthcare, which is probably the best application of telehealth. It is much more flexible for both patient and doctor, and has given access to many patients who otherwise live too far away from services. Some clients are better served virtually, due to their specific anxieties and disorders etc. But some clients are better served in person, especially small children with small attention spans, so she still goes to the office two days a week. She is not mandated to do so, but it is heavily suggested by her boss that she keep two days a week of in-person clients to continue serving a broader spectrum of people and keep both sets of skills sharp.

I design stuff in CAD, analyze and validate designs, specify and procure components, and mostly manage my own work. I do a ton of this from home, and it's great. Keeps the miles off my cars, more time in the garage, etc. But I also build stuff and run tests in the lab. I can't do that from home. I work with machinists and technicians who also build my stuff, and they sure as hell can't WFH. If I want my stuff built right, it's best for me to be there, talking face-to-face. Most of my meetings with other engineers or project managers are virtual, even when I'm in the office, and even when we're all in the office (LOL). It's just easier to screen-share than to set up all the conference room multimedia crap. My workplace does not mandate coming to the office, but in order to keep a physical office space, we have to come in 60% of the time, otherwise you considered fully remote and have to use the flex space. In practice, I typically WFH 2 days a week. Sometimes more if I'm deep into design, sometimes less if we're slapping parts together.

The other piece of it is learning from others in person. I can poke my head into another engineer's office and quickly ask about a best practice for a specific problem. I do this on chat too, but I find more learning happens with in-person discussions, because they tend to meander and go off-topic, we break out the whiteboard drawings, start talking about LS-swaps, and I learn about old projects and problems and how they were solved. More time wasted talking, sure, but also more institutional knowledge is built, so is a relationship. On a web chat, I get the answer I wanted and nothing else, if I even bother asking. But I'm pretty far into my career, so this is way more important for junior engineers. 

I'm not pro-WFH or anti-WFH, there is always nuance. I agree with the sentiment that WFH is not for everyone, it's not for every business, or every line of work, but those employers and individuals who can find the correct balance for their specific set of needs will succeed. Adapt or die - that's the story of evolution and human history.

Like most hot-button issues, on a scale of 1 to 10 the vast majority of us lie somewhere between 4 and 6, yet we pretend like everyone is a 1 or a 10.

This is the best post I have read in this thread, thank you for the well thought out post. 

Hot desks are the only real answer if your office for 80 employees has only 40 seats. Like mine.

The only bad part is Seth. He's berkeleying loud and he talks on the phone a lot. And me. For the same reason.

..So I stretch the WFH option extensively.

I think they are good when your office has more employees than desks for sure.   It actually surprises me more employers aren't leveraging this.  When my company did their first RTO push, they found they didn't have enough desks.  But they wanted those that came in to all come in on the same days.  So the office was overloaded (some had to stay remote) T-Th, but empty M and F.  Seems ridiculous to me.  If you have a hybrid setup where you want 60% on site presence, you should only need 60% as many desks as you have employees.  That can translate into any number of advantages depending on how the employer utilizes that savings.

I actually recall reading somewhere that companies want employees to come in so they can justfiy the offices they own/lease.  Talk about sunk cost fallacy...

Another thing they offer is location flexibility on site.  We have 5 buildings and depending on what someone is up to it may be advantageous for them to be in any one of them.  A docking station, monitors, kb + mouse at each "hotel" means anyone is ready to roll no matter where they need to sit and they can choose a location based on what they are working on/supporting at that time.  We also have a bajillion sites across the country/world and it means those traveling can grab a desk somewhere to work (however the sites havent aligned enough to make this a reality).

I only have a notebook in my bag, but even then 99% of what I do I keep stored digitally.

On the hotelling/hot desking:

I won't go into the whole COVID aspect, but the way my company looked at it, a hybrid worker's "home base" desk was at their home in the new model. Work was set up to show up, sit where you want, and go. We outfitted every desk with a docking station, dual monitors, and everyone has a laptop. Just show up, plug in, and go. They are all motorized, so you can stand or sit, which is nice. And they are pretty big desks, too. They even got really nice chairs for all of them. I was on the team that chose everything, so it's all top end, state-of-the-art stuff. The only difference is the locations. Some are near the windows, and people were fighting over those all the time before we implemented the assigned seats. We still have a handful of the free desks people can book for when people visit the office from out-of-town. 

As a hybrid worker, I don't hate being in the office nearly as much as I used to. A couple days a week is perfect for me and breaks up my work week. I have actually been home all week recovering from surgery, and I found myself almost missing going in. That's weird! But "home base" for me is still at home. I can get way more done here without people at the office interrupting me all day. Transformed my work life AND personal life. 

ProDarwin said:

Seems ridiculous to me.  If you have a hybrid setup where you want 60% on site presence, you should only need 60% as many desks as you have employees.  That can translate into any number of advantages depending on how the employer utilizes that savings.

Think about how maddening it would be to come to work and somebody had moved all the stuff around on your desk.

Every.

Damn.

Day.

Intellectually, hoteling makes sense.  From a worker's comfort and convenience standpoint, it does not.  At least not for people who are going to be in the office more than a single day (or maybe 2) per week, maximum.

Think about how many people fart in your chair. 
 

Every. 
 

Damn. 
 

Day. 

SV reX said:

Think about how many people fart in your chair. 
 

Every. 
 

Damn. 
 

Day. 

I'll make it even worse. Years ago a company I worked for (this was LONG before any thoughts of WFH/Pandemic/etc), had some serious GI issues. To the point, he had an activated charcoal pillow in his chair. I'll just leave it at that.

Given the start of this thread, hot desking would be gross.

Poop story: A long while back I was an overnight rent-a-cop in an office building with card readers everywhere, this one floor had people hot desking in shifts in a protected area where access was by putting your hand on a hand geometry scanner. One time while using a stall I hear this guy next to me seriously deploying troops, and he leaves without washing. I know he works in that area because I can see the access log (pun somewhat intended). I had to patrol that place too so I was Lysol wiping every door knob on the way and the hand thing too.

Duke said:

ProDarwin said:

Seems ridiculous to me.  If you have a hybrid setup where you want 60% on site presence, you should only need 60% as many desks as you have employees.  That can translate into any number of advantages depending on how the employer utilizes that savings.

Think about how maddening it would be to come to work and somebody had moved all the stuff around on your desk.

Every.

Damn.

Day.

Intellectually, hoteling makes sense.  From a worker's comfort and convenience standpoint, it does not.  At least not for people who are going to be in the office more than a single day (or maybe 2) per week, maximum.

 

I guess my point is, the only things left on a desk when I leave are:  KB, Mouse, Docking Station, Monitors, Spaceball.  So... nothing of mine got moved.  When I go to the next desk its a clean slate.  My team currently hot desks in a number of offices on site and doesnt really have issues with it.

The farting... its funny, but is it an issue?

SV reX said:

GameboyRMH said:

Hot-desking with COVID19 still lurking in the background was a ballsy choice:

https://opensourcedworkplace.com/news/hot-desking-health-and-safety-what-you-need-to-know

I m not a fan of hot desking, but that article is terrible. They don't even seem to be able to read their own statistics- a 62% increase in absenteeism does NOT mean over 50% of the staff will be absent (both cited from the article).  And issues like businesses losing proprietary data because an employee didn't log off are stupid easy to fix with simple tools like auto log off.  Their COVID facts are off too (but I'm not going there)
 

I'm no fan of hot desking, and I'd love to see it go away (it's an awful way to treat employees), but that article is junk clickbait. 

The author does make at least one terrible statistical mistake, but I do like that he cited all the relevant studies which honestly is the reason I linked it.

Auto-lock is common and can help with data on computers but does nothing for paper or people leaving unencrypted digital media on or in their desk, and computer security isn't perfect either. I've seen lock screens malfunction. Windows lock screens going into the wrong mode and unlocking with a press of any key rather than a password, Linux lock screens locking a second or two after the computer wakes up from sleep mode due to some kind of power management timing issue - enough to glimpse what was on the screen.

On the subject of Farts...

Two things:

-When we outfitted our office, we got mesh back-and-bottom office chairs. Optimum air flow, and way less gross! That said, I don't think anyone is tearing it up in the office. Not audibly, at least. 

-(For some reason, I've told this story about 5 times in the past week) When I first joined the corporate business world, I worked in a backwater office for a huge financial company. Most of the people there were under 35, and it was basically all kids right out of college at their 1st office job. Think the TV show The Office, but on a larger scale. It was nuts out there, and the office antics were always cranked to 11. At some point, someone started crop dusting people on purpose "to be funny". This escalated into a Fart War where people were farting at each other (to be clear, I was a victim here, not on the farting front lines). The "collateral damage" caused people to complain, so the entire business unit got pulled into a big conference room and executives had to tell people to stop farting. Think about that for a minute: executive leadership and HR leaders for one of the biggest financial companies in the world had to come out to the office and tell employees to stop farting at each other. If that's not high comedy, I don't know what is.