I must be missing something. BMW?

tuna55 wrote: I agree with some here that the cars may be worth their extra hassle, BUT I will say that if someone's Sunfire (or even Corvette) exhibited some of the torturous maintenance required for some of these European cars, nobody would be kind to GM like they are to BMW.

They would if the Sunfire delivered the same driving experience. For enthsuaists, the driving experience is why we OWN cars, why we LIKE cars (instead of compare them in consumer reports as just another appliance we need in the house).

Chris_V wrote:

tuna55 wrote: I agree with some here that the cars may be worth their extra hassle, BUT I will say that if someone's Sunfire (or even Corvette) exhibited some of the torturous maintenance required for some of these European cars, nobody would be kind to GM like they are to BMW.

They would if the Sunfire delivered the same driving experience. For enthsuaists, the driving experience is why we OWN cars, why we LIKE cars (instead of compare them in consumer reports as just another appliance we need in the house).

tuna55 wrote: (or even Corvette)

Chris_V wrote:

tuna55 wrote: I agree with some here that the cars may be worth their extra hassle, BUT I will say that if someone's Sunfire (or even Corvette) exhibited some of the torturous maintenance required for some of these European cars, nobody would be kind to GM like they are to BMW.

They would if the Sunfire delivered the same driving experience. For enthsuaists, the driving experience is why we OWN cars, why we LIKE cars (instead of compare them in consumer reports as just another appliance we need in the house).

2005 Sunfire MSRP with all the options $15205

2005 BMW 3 series MSRP no options $29300

Not exactly apples to apples.

For twice the money it should be twice the car. I guess my original question is, is it?

From the answers, some of you say yes, some not so much. For the wife's DD I think I will go with something more bullet proof and less maintenance intensive. Like I said earlier, I hate working the DD cars. Especially hers. I would rather spend that time working on my junk. It's a lot more fun when you don't have to have it running to go to work on Monday.

Toyman01 wrote: For twice the money it should be twice the car. I guess my original question is, is it?

Your logic is broken.

Is a $1000 TV 2x better than a $500 TV? Is a $1000 pair of shoes 10x better than a $100 pair? Is a $50k watch better than my Timex?

In some respects the BMW is a million times better than the Sunfire.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

Toyman01 wrote: For twice the money it should be twice the car. I guess my original question is, is it?

Your logic is broken. Is a $1000 TV 2x better than a $500 TV? Is a $1000 pair of shoes 10x better than a $100 pair? Is a $50k watch better than my Timex? In some respects the BMW is a million times better than the Sunfire.

Yes, a $1000 TV is twice as good as a $500 TV. Other wise I would have bought the $500 one. The shoes had better be. But I will never know about them or the watch. In most cases you get what you pay for.

The whole point of this thread is to get input to decide if a BMW would be right for my wife for a DD. From what I have seen, the answer is no. More maintenance and she won't care about the "driving experience". In this case driving experience adds no value to the car. For less money I can get her a car that will make her happy and require less maintenance. That's a win win for me. I get to spend more money on my stuff. Whether on not a BMW is a good car is irrelevant, it's probably not the right car for her. We'll just leave the used ones for you guys.

Unless you think one would tow my enclosed trailer.

Toyman01 wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

Toyman01 wrote: For twice the money it should be twice the car. I guess my original question is, is it?

Your logic is broken. Is a $1000 TV 2x better than a $500 TV? Is a $1000 pair of shoes 10x better than a $100 pair? Is a $50k watch better than my Timex? In some respects the BMW is a million times better than the Sunfire.

Yes, a $1000 TV is twice as good as a $500 TV. Other wise I would have bought the $500 one. The shoes had better be. But I will never know about them or the watch. In most cases you get what you pay for. The whole point of this thread is to get input to decide if a BMW would be right for my wife for a DD. From what I have seen, the answer is no. More maintenance and she won't care about the "driving experience". In this case driving experience adds no value to the car. For less money I can get her a car that will make her happy and require less maintenance. That's a win win for me. I get to spend more money on my stuff. Whether on not a BMW is a good car is irrelevant, it's probably not the right car for her. We'll just leave the used ones for you guys. Unless you think one would tow my enclosed trailer.

X5?

mtn wrote:

Toyman01 wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

Toyman01 wrote: For twice the money it should be twice the car. I guess my original question is, is it?

Your logic is broken. Is a $1000 TV 2x better than a $500 TV? Is a $1000 pair of shoes 10x better than a $100 pair? Is a $50k watch better than my Timex? In some respects the BMW is a million times better than the Sunfire.

Yes, a $1000 TV is twice as good as a $500 TV. Other wise I would have bought the $500 one. The shoes had better be. But I will never know about them or the watch. In most cases you get what you pay for. The whole point of this thread is to get input to decide if a BMW would be right for my wife for a DD. From what I have seen, the answer is no. More maintenance and she won't care about the "driving experience". In this case driving experience adds no value to the car. For less money I can get her a car that will make her happy and require less maintenance. That's a win win for me. I get to spend more money on my stuff. Whether on not a BMW is a good car is irrelevant, it's probably not the right car for her. We'll just leave the used ones for you guys. Unless you think one would tow my enclosed trailer.

X5?

Hmmm...

From the sounds of it, I'd agree that a BMW is not the right car for your wife.

A beige Camry however.....

We (my wife and I) love our BMW's, but only because the driving experience outweighs (IMHO) the minor inconvenience of "coolant replacements" or once in our ownership period bushing replacements. A few weekends and a few hundred dollars pay for that. In fact, I'm semi-actively looking for a nice E46 or E39 wagon for her.

It beats paying $1000 to have the timing belt in an "appliance" TDI done every 40-60k. For example. Especially since you have to DRIVE the TDI.

Not that I'd like to be accused of calling a VW an appliance....unless perhaps it's prefixed by "not a good".

friends of mine drive his and hers camrys... best thing they ever did

The only time I've ever been stranded by an American car is when a crappy engineering design called an "opti-spark" pussied out on me. Even then it still sputted along within walking distance of my apartment. I've been in a friend's E36 M3 twice within the 3 years I've known him where the car has strait up left us on the side of the road. That alone has made me never want a bimmer unless it has a LSx power plant. Although a 135 is a beautiful car that I would love to own, it just doesn't fit within my budget or headache tolerance if something goes wrong.

See "E30 Epic Rally Adventure"

/thread

DirtyBird222 wrote: The only time I've ever been stranded by an American car is when a crappy engineering design called an "opti-spark" pussied out on me. Even then it still sputted along within walking distance of my apartment.

Stop. My 9C1 can hear you.

Opti-spark is a four letter word.

DirtyBird222 wrote: The only time I've ever been stranded by an American car is when a crappy engineering design called an "opti-spark" pussied out on me. Even then it still sputted along within walking distance of my apartment. I've been in a friend's E36 M3 twice within the 3 years I've known him where the car has strait up left us on the side of the road. That alone has made me never want a bimmer unless it has a LSx power plant. Although a 135 is a beautiful car that I would love to own, it just doesn't fit within my budget or headache tolerance if something goes wrong.

what failed and stranded the car?

Toyman01 wrote: 2005 Sunfire MSRP with all the options $15205 2005 BMW 3 series MSRP no options $29300 Not exactly apples to apples. For twice the money it should be twice the car. I guess my original question is, is it? From the answers, some of you say yes, some not so much. For the wife's DD I think I will go with something more bullet proof and less maintenance intensive. Like I said earlier, I hate working the DD cars. Especially hers. I would rather spend that time working on my junk. It's a lot more fun when you don't have to have it running to go to work on Monday.

As a Cavalier and former Escort I will say that my Escort was twice the car my Cavalier is. I can't imagine the great leap forward a BMW would be. While it is as reliable as the sun, it can be a most unpleasant driving experiance. And maintanance has been no picnic either. At 130 k it needed a fan and a radiator, and is one of they few I've seen that didn't need a head gasket. I grew up in a GM family and hope to see them survive for the sake of the people that need to feed thier families, but the more time I spend with it the more i can see why they deserve what ever happens to them.

Wally wrote: As a Cavalier and former Escort I will say that ...

Interesting background there, Wally. Would you care to tell us more?

WilberM3 wrote:

DirtyBird222 wrote: The only time I've ever been stranded by an American car is when a crappy engineering design called an "opti-spark" pussied out on me. Even then it still sputted along within walking distance of my apartment. I've been in a friend's E36 M3 twice within the 3 years I've known him where the car has strait up left us on the side of the road. That alone has made me never want a bimmer unless it has a LSx power plant. Although a 135 is a beautiful car that I would love to own, it just doesn't fit within my budget or headache tolerance if something goes wrong.

what failed and stranded the car?

First time was the ECU, second time was the fuel pump.

Appleseed wrote:

DirtyBird222 wrote: The only time I've ever been stranded by an American car is when a crappy engineering design called an "opti-spark" pussied out on me. Even then it still sputted along within walking distance of my apartment.

Stop. My 9C1 can hear you. Opti-spark is a four letter word.

If only E36 M3 didn't fit that word filter so well already I'd say let it be.

Toyman01 wrote: The whole point of this thread is to get input to decide if a BMW would be right for my wife for a DD. From what I have seen, the answer is no. More maintenance and she won't care about the "driving experience". In this case driving experience adds no value to the car... Whether on not a BMW is a good car is irrelevant, it's probably not the right car for her. We'll just leave the used ones for you guys.

You're probably right. When you look just at the $$'s, there are certainly other cars which make a better value proposition. I personally think that a $5,000 GT Cruiser would make a terrific family car.

However, it's been my experience that a wife may car more about what she drives than you might assume. My wife is by no means a performance driver, but now that she has an E39 for her daily driver she's hooked. When I joke about selling her 530i, she gets angry. I can do whatever I want with it after I pry the steering wheel out of her cold, dead hands.

Wally wrote: ...I can't imagine the great leap forward a BMW would be from my Ford Escort...

Really?

Well my wife has the choice of a 09 Solstice GXP coupe or 03 Ford Mach 1 as a dd. We did the German car DD with her (Audi) and that is why she now has a car with a warranty. I love working on my projects and the last thing I want to do is drop everything, which is a must, when her DD tanks. So thank you Pontiac and Ford for allowing me to work on my projects.

On the flipside, there are two Porsches in our garage, and I love them. The 944 Turbo is my occasional DD and the 911 is strictly a toy. I will DD a german car, but if the wife does I want it with a warranty and roadside assistance. Like I said, I LOVE my German cars, but over the years they have left me stranded more than the domestics.

tuna55 wrote:

Chris_V wrote:

tuna55 wrote: I agree with some here that the cars may be worth their extra hassle, BUT I will say that if someone's Sunfire (or even Corvette) exhibited some of the torturous maintenance required for some of these European cars, nobody would be kind to GM like they are to BMW.

They would if the Sunfire delivered the same driving experience. For enthsuaists, the driving experience is why we OWN cars, why we LIKE cars (instead of compare them in consumer reports as just another appliance we need in the house).

tuna55 wrote: (or even Corvette)

And enthusiasts forgive the Corvette it's build quality issues, squeaks and rattles, cheap switchgear, etc, because of the driving experience and performance so my point still stands.

DirtyBird222 wrote:

WilberM3 wrote:

DirtyBird222 wrote: The only time I've ever been stranded by an American car is when a crappy engineering design called an "opti-spark" pussied out on me. Even then it still sputted along within walking distance of my apartment. I've been in a friend's E36 M3 twice within the 3 years I've known him where the car has strait up left us on the side of the road. That alone has made me never want a bimmer unless it has a LSx power plant. Although a 135 is a beautiful car that I would love to own, it just doesn't fit within my budget or headache tolerance if something goes wrong.

what failed and stranded the car?

First time was the ECU, second time was the fuel pump.

ECU on the e36 is in kind of a strange place. In the engine compartment, up under the passengerside of the windsheild. If the seal breaks, water can get in and fry it.

Fuelpumps are generic. I have seen or heard of almost every car having one go. Usually from running the tank down too low and overheating them (fuel keeps them cool) or from gunk in the tank. I know in my Ti.. the pump died two weeks after I ran the tank dry (but still managed to get the car home)

Toyman01 wrote:

Chris_V wrote:

tuna55 wrote: I agree with some here that the cars may be worth their extra hassle, BUT I will say that if someone's Sunfire (or even Corvette) exhibited some of the torturous maintenance required for some of these European cars, nobody would be kind to GM like they are to BMW.

They would if the Sunfire delivered the same driving experience. For enthsuaists, the driving experience is why we OWN cars, why we LIKE cars (instead of compare them in consumer reports as just another appliance we need in the house).

2005 Sunfire MSRP with all the options $15205 2005 BMW 3 series MSRP no options $29300 Not exactly apples to apples. For twice the money it should be twice the car. I guess my original question is, is it? From the answers, some of you say yes, some not so much. For the wife's DD I think I will go with something more bullet proof and less maintenance intensive. Like I said earlier, I hate working the DD cars. Especially hers. I would rather spend that time working on my junk. It's a lot more fun when you don't have to have it running to go to work on Monday.

I DD my E38. It's cost me $1500 in repairs over the last 3+ years. Sorry, but that's not maintenance intensive, or cost intensive. I bought the car for $7500. In what it delivers, it's worth VASTLY more than a cheap economy car that may cost a little less initially, but still need repairs (why spend moeny and time on repairs on something you barely even like just to say you have an appliance?) and it's a lot cheaper than a DD that's NEWER and needs less in repairs, but still delivers no driving enjoyment. The cost in both dollars and lack of enjoyment/connection just to say "I don't have to work on the DD occasionally" is not worth it to me. i.e. I'd rather have a car I enjoyed, that delivered a better driving experince, and occasionally needed work, rather than have a more expensive appliance that I barely tolerated just so I rarely had to work on it, or an even cheaper appliance I barely tolerated that still needed to be worked on due to being old and cheap. Does that make any sense? Luckily my wife feels the same way, and hates boring appliance cars.

tuna55 wrote: I agree with some here that the cars may be worth their extra hassle, BUT I will say that if someone's Sunfire (or even Corvette) exhibited some of the torturous maintenance required for some of these European cars, nobody would be kind to GM like they are to BMW.

Torturous? My BMW is much easier to work on than my Neon was, or my daughter's Impreza. Much.

Toyman01 wrote: The whole point of this thread is to get input to decide if a BMW would be right for my wife for a DD. From what I have seen, the answer is no. More maintenance and she won't care about the "driving experience". In this case driving experience adds no value to the car. For less money I can get her a car that will make her happy and require less maintenance.

If this is your criteria, then I would heartily suggest looking into the 1st-gen Acura TSX. It's 85% of the BMW driving experience, particularly day to day, it's cheaper, and it's Honda. As a DD I love my wife's TSX, even with the auto trans (which is actually quite a nice unit). Since the TSX is based on the Euro Accord, it's tidier in styling and size than a US Accord, and the handling is decently sporty and highly enjoyable.

I often wonder aloud if BMW is overated, and I was even happy to have my wife sell her E36 328ic and buy a brand new RAV4 V6.

I wonder aloud and then I turn on my E36 M3 and go for a drive. My grin and faster heart beat make me forget about that thing I was talking about...what was it again?

Drive one...hard, you'll get it.

Agreed

I was in a rush last night to get to a show about 20 miles away. I drove the E36 M3 a bit harder than normal to get there......ok a LOT harder than normal!

After 136K miles I still absolutely love the way that thing drives. Bootleg 180s are fun too!