i need dog training tips

ddavidv wrote: So if you're the decision maker, you would be the pack leader. You kind of contradict yourself there.

No, not really. Whenever folks use/misuse this concept of alpha or pack leader, it's used in the context of using negative reinforcement, ie, you have to use dominance and punishment to assert yourself as a "pack leader". You know, like the wolves do........

ddavidv wrote: There's nothing wrong with Cesar Millan's techniques, generally.

Oh rly??? Kicking a dog is just not cool, see here from his show. This is the watered down video -- the one that showed him lifting dogs up off their paws on choke chains isn't on there any more that I can find.

What this guy does is puts dogs into highly stressful situations and then kicks and chokes them. See the video above.

When you do stuff like this, you don't get a dog that looks to you for guidance, you get a dog that fears his next action because he might receive pain and not reward. I took a dog to a trainer who used methods like this almost 20 years ago and I got a dog who became a fear biter when all was said and done. That dog was great most of the time, but put him in any situation where he became stressed and he was a fear biter. I didn't know any better than that 20 years ago, I just thought that's how training and human/dog interaction was supposed to be. Fast forward quite a few years and I had a foster dog who came into my house with fear/aggression problems towards men. He tolerated Mrs. orphancars, but he wasn't buying anything I was selling. Positive training techniques (clicker, treats) and he came out of his shell and became my friend. He also was able to be adopted out and avoided the pink shot.

ddavidv wrote: Just don't dismiss a training method based on some internet lore.

Um, yeah................not really doing that here. I've been around dogs, trainers, and rescue groups for almost 20 years and have encountered a lot of dogs (owned 7, had 30 or so fosters through the house). I have also done all the bad stuff, too -- I had german pinch collars for all 4 of our dogs at one time because, at that time, I felt that that was the only way I could control 4 dogs on a walk in our neighborhood. Now, with a little training (and yes, treats as a reward) -- I can take 4 dogs on the same walk with regular collars.

I've learned/experienced/seen that you can get much better results with positive techniques than with negative ones. With positive ones I have a dog that wants to do things because it will please me (and yes, occasionally, he gets treats for it). Negative training gives you a dog that is fearful of you and will be unpredictable when put into a new/possibly stressful situation.

Oh yeah, about treats. It's play for pay, baby. And like ECM says (good advices there, too, BTW!) it's gotta be a slot machine type of payout. The house pays heavily with treats up front, but over time they get tapered off. And instead of a treat, scratch on the head or belly rub or a favorite toy can also be given.

orphancars wrote: Oh rly??? Kicking a dog is just not cool, see here from his show. This is the watered down video -- the one that showed him lifting dogs up off their paws on choke chains isn't on there any more that I can find.

Oh come on, my mom kicked me harder than that when I was a pup!

Yeah, again, it's hysteria based on the difference between a pain inducing kick and a tap with your foot to gain attention. I don't beat on dogs, but I have used that foot kick to tap into a dog's focus. You're not trying to shift the internal organs, you're just trying to get the brain to focus elsewhere. It has to be performed lightly, but enough to gain notice. The feel-good, treat dispenser weenies will never understand it no matter how many times I, or Millan, explain it. And nobody says you have to use it if you don't want to. However, certain dogs won't respond to a clicker or voice commands. I've got an Australian Shepherd that has tunnel vision when he sees another dog. I could set off fireworks next to him and he wouldn't notice when he's giving 'eye'. He requires a physical interruption to regain focus and control. By using the methods Millan uses, I can now walk him past the two yapping neighbor dogs with nothing more than a few glances by him.

Strangely, he does not fear me.

Look, there is no single method that is the be-all, end-all way to do things. What I use on my knuckle-headed Aussie never came into play with my BC mix. I adapt my training to the dog. I'm not a professional, but I've been observant of the different options and have read a huge portion of the books out there trying to come up with what works. What I find (that is frankly frustrating) is that the people who disagree with Millan mostly fail to understand what he is doing. He talks about alpha but really it's leadership. Not every transgression results in "punishment". Correction is not punishment. Not sure how you can effectively lead without correcting unwanted behavior.

If you disagree with the techniques, don't use them. Just don't add to the hysteria that is created by people who post those out-of-context videos. Some of those methods wouldn't even be necessary if owners wouldn't let their dogs get to the levels of the ones on his show (which are mostly extreme cases).

I don't know what all this fuss it about. When I get a dog I simply read aloud in his native tongue (Japanese for my Akita, German for a German Shepherd, English with a southern accent for a blood hound etc.) the rules of the house. Once this is understood there are no problems.

Further reflection as I went about my morning routine...

I guess what bugs me is that people are dismissing the entire catalog of useful teachings by Millan based solely on his use of touch. As I suggested, you can choose not to use that tool. Because it's TV, most dogs shown on the program are exceptional cases and likely require more advanced approaches. Most dogs of ours would probably never require such things. However, having read his book (among numerous others) the guy still has quite a lot of effective means of teaching your dog manners. Rules, boundaries and limitations. Exercise, discipline and affection--in that order. Being a Pack Leader. The wife and I will observe the behavior of other dogs we encounter and can now recognize when the owner is not a Pack Leader. It's amazing how this one simple thing causes the most problems. Leadership is not dominance. Respect is earned in dogs just as in people, through actions, ie fair, effective leadership.

Dog training seems to elicit the same kind of passionate responses as advice on raising children. I have excellent advice on raising your child, if you want it. But I've never had a child. So do you take my advice if it's based solely on common sense and observation? Probably not, but it doesn't mean I don't have some useful tactics worth considering. Continuing on the theme...Millan's touch could be compared to spanking a child. Spanking is punishment and it's root is in pain. Is spanking abuse? Some argue that it is. I was spanked as a child yet I don't 1) disagree with it nor 2) have any desire to smack my wife around. Works on some kids and not on others. Yet, if I look around at the current results of 'time out' child rearing I see a population of out of control children who don't respect their parents. As I look around at a population of dogs without Pack Leaders I see the same thing. We've swung the pendulum the other way too far, wanting to be kinder, gentler parents (of both children and pets).

It's all a grand experiment, really. Most of us remember when dogs were punished for house soiling by "rubbing their nose in it". We now know that doesn't work, yet it was perpetuated for generations. I did it, because I didn't know better. I also observed that it didn't make any difference. I've read Barbara Woodhouse, The Monks of New Skete, Brian Killcommons and Cesar Millan among several others. They all have good ideas, but they also have some that may not be effective, or at least not in every case. Do we dismiss the entire approach as rubbish simply because one or two instructions are ineffective or proven incorrect? Clicker training makes me want to LOL at the absurdity of it, yet I've seen it work. I thought Millan's concept of a "migration walk" to introduce a new dog to the pack was kind of silly, but I tried it and had the most smooth transition of a new dog ever. Remember, each dog is an individual. They won't all respond to, or require, the same techniques or level of immersion to training.

My last bit on this and I am out of the discussion.........

I just cannot believe that the only way to get a dogs attention is with a kick to the side that lifts him off his feet. This type of correction is one that cannot be delivered with any sort of consistency. That's why sometimes this kick doesn't seem to be a big deal -- when it is delivered lightly. But I've seen some where he is knocking a 60-70+ pound dog off of its feet. That can't be good...

And really David -- calling people weenies?? You can do better........

You actually do have some common sense that you are working with....and that is good. Good for the dogs, good for you. You are able to see that different dogs/situations/methods require different tactics, and that is good. The problem with Cesar and his TV show is that lowest common denominator thing......folks tune in and think that this is the only way to train a dog....and maybe if a little touch to the dog isn't quite working, maybe a harder one will.........

About your Aussie...........I took a preliminary agility class with one of my dogs. Aussies and Border Collies do really well in agility. They are also really intense dogs (as you well know) with a high prey drive. The class leader (who I've never seen her place lower than 2nd) only uses positive training methods. Her dogs actually move through a course based on where she is and where she points -- she doesn't yell, she just walks/runs through the course and points. And that is how she teaches.

Last one -- I really wouldn't be such a fan of positive techniques if I didn't see one local trainer (search and rescue guy actually -- worked on the WTC pile) in a class working with a student and his Mailnois. The Mal was just not listening to the owner....and the owner was yanking the dog around on his pinch collar. Y'know what the Mal thought was really fun? Biting the guy in the crotch! The more that the guy yanked the dog around, the more the dog thought that it was fun play time. Trainer, after the second or third crotch bite (yep, I was counting...it was fun!) took the dog from the guy and within less than 5 minutes had the dog calmed down and doing the exercises that the rest of the group was doing. The hardest thing was really training the owner to be consistent and NOT to resort to physical means. Let's face it, yanking a dog around is easy....it's hard to be consistent and it's hard to shape the behavior we want out of the dog because it isn't immediate results.

And yeah, I'll dismiss Milan and whatever he has to say because what he is offering to the public can harm dogs. He has lawsuits against him and dogs have died under his care -- not natural causes type stuff, but carelessness -- leaving dogs unattended and tied to a treadmill is just not right.

That's it, I'm outta this discussion.

So as not to derail the discussion -- for the OP-- go to the American Pet Dog Trainer website here to find a trainer in your area.

orphancars wrote: I just cannot believe that the only way to get a dogs attention is with a kick to the side that lifts him off his feet. This type of correction is one that cannot be delivered with any sort of consistency. That's why sometimes this kick doesn't seem to be a big deal -- when it is delivered lightly. But I've seen some where he is knocking a 60-70+ pound dog off of its feet. That can't be good...

in the seasons i've watched, I've seen dogs JUMP in reaction, but not lifted off their feet from being punted.

The problem with Cesar and his TV show is that lowest common denominator thing......folks tune in and think that this is the only way to train a dog....and maybe if a little touch to the dog isn't quite working, maybe a harder one will.........

The problem with Cesar and his TV show is the sanctimony with which his critics judge his techniques.

Cesar's show addresses dogs that are already severe behavioral problem cases. They don't show how he trains from puppy age, they show techniques to overcome extreme social issues, mostly fear based reactions. But nearly all the critics I've read address his show's techniques as though he's saying all dogs need to be treated the same way. We call this 'category error.'

And having open civil lawsuits out against you as a defining characteristic of criticism is about as intellectually sound as saying "well he must be bad, someone is trying to sue him."

Taken out of context, ALL techniques can be dangerous.

i'll point out one thing else that you said that shows you're not paying quite enough attention to what Cesar brings to the discussion:

The hardest thing was really training the owner to be consistent ...

If you watched the show with a less than snap-judgement response, you would see this is the outcome of most of the shows; demonstrating to the owner their inconsistant behavior that either led to the problem, or is exacerbating it.

Cesar doesnt poke the dog with his foot 20 times and hand the leash back to them and say "there, your dog is cured." He evaluates the owners behavior even more critically than the dog, because the dog's behavior is unfiltered and tells him everything he needs to know without prompting.

I encourage everyone to evaluate all sources of information themselves...

ddavidv wrote: So you're training your dogs to be afraid of towels.

So that's why they hate a bath! All this time, I thought it was just their nature..

madmallard wrote:

orphancars wrote: I just cannot believe that the only way to get a dogs attention is with a kick to the side that lifts him off his feet. This type of correction is one that cannot be delivered with any sort of consistency. That's why sometimes this kick doesn't seem to be a big deal -- when it is delivered lightly. But I've seen some where he is knocking a 60-70+ pound dog off of its feet. That can't be good...

in the seasons i've watched, I've seen dogs JUMP in reaction, but not lifted off their feet from being punted.

The problem with Cesar and his TV show is that lowest common denominator thing......folks tune in and think that this is the only way to train a dog....and maybe if a little touch to the dog isn't quite working, maybe a harder one will.........

The problem with Cesar and his TV show is the sanctimony with which his critics judge his techniques. Cesar's show addresses dogs that are already severe behavioral problem cases. They don't show how he trains from puppy age, they show techniques to overcome extreme social issues, mostly fear based reactions. But nearly all the critics I've read address his show's techniques as though he's saying all dogs need to be treated the same way. We call this 'category error.' And having open civil lawsuits out against you as a defining characteristic of criticism is about as intellectually sound as saying "well he must be bad, someone is trying to sue him." Taken out of context, ALL techniques can be dangerous. i'll point out one thing else that you said that shows you're not paying quite enough attention to what Cesar brings to the discussion:

The hardest thing was really training the owner to be consistent ...

If you watched the show with a less than snap-judgement response, you would see this is the outcome of most of the shows; demonstrating to the owner their inconsistant behavior that either led to the problem, or is exacerbating it. Cesar doesnt poke the dog with his foot 20 times and hand the leash back to them and say "there, your dog is cured." He evaluates the owners behavior even more critically than the dog, because the dog's behavior is unfiltered and tells him everything he needs to know without prompting. I encourage everyone to evaluate all sources of information themselves...

Many good points in this response, madmallard.

Friends rescued an abandoned boxer and they took her to one of Millan's courses before she was exposed to family/friends. Ruby is one of the most gentle, loving and responsive dogs I've encountered.

And I've NEVER seen her receive the dreaded "kick"; voice commands do the trick.

orphancars said: I just cannot believe that the only way to get a dogs attention is with a kick to the side that lifts him off his feet. And really David -- calling people weenies?? You can do better........

I have no idea where you got the idea the dog has to be lifted off his feet. Now, at the risk of sounding like I'm defending that (and I'm not) there are certain breeds of dogs that don't respond to a light tap. Take Bulldogs; they require a firmer course of action, within reason, because they have been bred in such a way as to be resistant to 'normal' pain thresholds. So without wading through the video to see which dogs are airborne I'll assume they were more of a 'bully' breed.

I am calling a general population weenies, because they are. That doesn't mean you, specifically, because it's obvious you know how to train dogs. But I've met these people...they're the same ones who shriek in terror at the dog park the minute another dog play growls. Weenies tend to think food rewards are the only way to train dogs. I call 'em as I see 'em.

Though he's now 13 years old, I still offer up my Aussie to anyone who thinks they can train him with just positive reinforcement to do an agility course and not get distracted. I'd love you to prove me wrong. None of my previous agility trainers could.

It's disappointing that I put the effort into two well thought out posts worth of introspection and opinion and all that got noticed was the word "weenies".