ICF Construction

Look up super insulated houses. They don't use ICFs, they use double staggered studs or spaced apart double studs with insulation between them. Wall system with ratings in the R40 range for walls and R60 for roof. Sometimes called "passive houses."

Dr. Hess said:

There is a retired architect in my car club that built his own house with that.  He really likes it.  His heating and cooling costs are virtually zero. 

There are 4 right around me plus my partial.  Everyone who built them knew exactly what they were getting and why. These aren’t tract homes around here. They are custom built by smart people who have the intelligence to do the proper research and ask the right questions.  

Building multi million dollar homes isn’t done on a whim  or because it’s the fashion. It’s done with the full understanding of choices and reason for these choices. Since they look like nearly any other house when finished there clearly are solid reasons to spend the extra money. 

Yes there is a premium charged for these. Both because there are so few people doing it, those in the field have no real competition. And because they still are rare enough that effective shortcuts and cost cutting methods haven’t been developed enough to bring costs more in line with the competitive nature of construction.  I know this, Contractors looking to be profitable should embrace these.  They are at the top end of the market where profits are. Plus the potential for gain in efficient construction is massive especially compared to traditional stick building.  

One thing you can say is they are incredibly quiet inside and extremely durable.  

dculberson said:

Look up super insulated houses. They don't use ICFs, they use double staggered studs or spaced apart double studs with insulation between them. Wall system with ratings in the R40 range for walls and R60 for roof. Sometimes called "passive houses."

Staggered studs deal with the issue of thermal bridging especially if the walls are spray foamed. But they don’t offer the same benefits that ICF’s do. 

That concrete mass in the center is a great storage of heat.  Not to mention the benefits of durability concrete offers over wood.  If wood was as durable as concrete we’d have wooden sidewalks and roads. ( yes I get the Irony since my house features not one but two timber frames. ) 

T.J. said:

I've done some studying in building with SIPs. Wood and styrofoam panels and no concrete. The idea of a net zero house or something close it seems cool. Have you looked at using SIPs for the above grade exterior walls?

I used SIPs to clad my house and for the roof.  They really are efficient retaining heat, and keeping the house cool in the summer.  But wow! Are they slow to build with.  

The problem is the joint between panels.  The requirement is a structural adhesive that is extremely tough to work with especially when cold.  They use splines that go in groves. Then a carefully designed pastern of gluing  must be followed to ensure full seal of the joint finally that whole assembly must be joined with another panel.  These can be massive panels. 8 feet wide by 50 feet long in some cases and they don’t like to keep their edges perfect.  Plus a panel sits on top of a  2x6 stud nailed to the base.  You have to melt those out by hand using a special melting tool.  Slow stinky mess!  

Since they are frequently used in timber frames they need to be attached to those Timbers with giant long screws every 4-6 inches. Failure  to follow that exact process will provide air gaps which will cause serious problems. 

My best estimate is using panels takes 2- three times the amount of work that working with ICF’s does.  

In reply to frenchyd :

SIPs are wonderful. But they also have serious drawbacks. 

I’ve built with them and really like them. 

But I’ve also done repairs on structures where things didn’t go so well. A simple roof leak, for example, which would just be replacing a piece of decking on a conventional roof, can delaminate the glue bond between the OSB and the foam insulation. It can easily be a $30,000 repair. 

EVERYTHING has its pluses and minuses. 

SVreX said:

In reply to frenchyd :

SIPs are wonderful. But they also have serious drawbacks. 

I’ve built with them and really like them. 

But I’ve also done repairs on structures where things didn’t go so well. A simple roof leak, for example, which would just be replacing a piece of decking on a conventional roof, can delaminate the glue bond between the OSB and the foam insulation. It can easily be a $30,000 repair. 

EVERYTHING has its pluses and minuses. 

Amen!  Those pluses and minuses suit different people with different goals.

I used to worry what would this nation do once all the trees were gone. Cut down to make houses etc. now I read where both Minnesota and Wisconsin have 3 times  more big mature trees now than in the 1950’s. Combination of things. But it’s true.  

The reason I comment is because there are several Timbers in my place that we’re growing when the nation was formed.  Definition of old growth!  However even long lived trees like White oak have a period where they will naturally decay. 

Once all those are gone there are giant massive forests in Russia totally untapped.  Not to mention big parts of Canada and Alaska. 

In reply to frenchyd :

“Big mature trees”. Planted by Weyerhaeuser. 

There are almost no old growth trees left, and the characteristics of the wood are very different than young growth trees. That’s why the engineering tables and span tables keep decreasing. 

We have chosen to trust our timber future to companies that profit from the speed of growth. It is to Weyerhaeuser’s advantage to encourage trees to grow faster. That means the annular rings are spread further apart, and the strength is compromised. It also means the lumber is more prone to insect infestation (because it is softer, and easier to eat). 

Unfortunately, this means we are more dependent on engineered products, and materials that are detrimental to the environment (like styrofoam building blocks). 

Again, EVERYTHING has its pluses and minuses. 

In reply to D2W :

Another upside is Sheetrock work. Normal house has to start and end on a stud. Leaving partial sheets behind.  ICFs don’t, there is a seam about every 4 inches to screw into ( use fine thread Sheetrock screws) and where the joint ends doesn’t matter you can tape and mud it wherever and it won’t crack since the plastic foam doesn’t shrink and swell like wood does.  Plus it’s solid so there is no “bridging” effect like the space between two studs. 

Electricians can simply melt out  a track to put wires in ( in conduit ) same with boxes. ( as long as they are shallow)  or you can anticipate where wiring will be going and put the boxes and conduit in place before the pour. 

plumbing on the other hand should come from the floor rather than the wall unless the wall is an inside stud wall.  

While a hammer drill will make quick work of putting holes in concrete it’s better to anticipate and put tubing  in place prior to pouring the concrete. 

Worse case you can cut through a wall pretty quickly using a diamond bladed saw but it’s a lot faster to anticipate where hole will need to be and exclude the concrete from those areas before the pour 

SVreX said:

In reply to frenchyd :

“Big mature trees”. Planted by Weyerhaeuser. 

There are almost no old growth trees left, and the characteristics of the wood are very different than young growth trees. That’s why the engineering tables and span tables keep decreasing. 

We have chosen to trust our timber future to companies that profit from the speed of growth. It is to Weyerhaeuser’s advantage to encourage trees to grow faster. That means the annular rings are spread further apart, and the strength is compromised. It also means the lumber is more prone to insect infestation (because it is softer, and easier to eat). 

Unfortunately, this means we are more dependent on engineered products, and materials that are detrimental to the environment (like styrofoam building blocks). 

Again, EVERYTHING has its pluses and minuses. 

Yes that’s absolutely true out west and down south where fast growing trees are planted like a crop.  However here in the Midwest not so true. As well as some parts out east.   Mainly we have slow growing deciduous trees with a few white pine etc up north. 

While it’s true we have paper mills harvesting aspen and similarly fast growing trees none of those are counted as “ big”trees in the study I mentioned.  

In part that’s because of the death of the family farm and part because the difficulty of harvesting some trees.  

With regard old growth, I highly pride it and you’ll see my Timbers reflect it with their tight grain due to slow natural growth.  In fact one timber that is prominent in my home is an extremely old growth white oak that was solid burl.  

The tree barely fit on the logging truck that brought it in and required major surgery to cut down and fit on the sawmill. With a 74”  blade they could only slice at it.  And after an hour of steady work hadn’t really made one board.  When they finally did they wanted to trash the whole thing.  They saw to grade, not yield and with all the swirls and knots etc this one had, they failed to see a market for it. Only When I offered them 40 cents a bd ft  were they willing to continue to turn it into boards and Timbers for me.  

Sorry, I digress, when you look at Canada Alaska and Russia there is still plenty of old growth timber to be harvested.  

With regard ICFs and the environment. Superficially you are right, big picture though you could be wrong.  

Here’s my logic, heating efficiency, plus durability, might outweigh the negative impact on the environment. 

Since the average house lasts around 50 years before its remodeled,  where most of it winds in the dumpster. Plus harvesting of trees and conversion into useable products. Now add transportation from forest to homes. It’s a pretty environmentally nasty process.  

Concrete can last over 2000 years and foam for centuries.  Some European homes etc are extremely old yet still in daily use.  Same with middle eastern  etc.  

I’ll admit I don’t know. My instincts tells me I’m right but I’ve read nothing to that effect.  

Lots of things to think about. The concept seems to have a lot of benefits, but not sure as to all the downsides. The bottom line for me will be the ability to find someone who can do the work properly, and the cost.

As for the enviromental impact I would have to see a cradle to grave study. Most people like to quote simple theories based on cost to produce, ect. But you also need to assess the impact the product has on heating and cooling, lifespan, and what happens when the structure is demolished. Technically all three components are recyclable, the question becomes can they be separated easily enough to be recycled. 

Honestly, I would like to see more post consumer plastics made into building materials. Now that China has shut off the market for plastics the bottom has dropped out of the market. A lot of the plastic you throw in your recycle bin is ending up in landfills. Now would be a perfect time to develop building materials using these plastics as they have little to no real value.

In reply to D2W :

I agree. 

I often thought a building material could be designed using a polymer binder with waste as filler. Something that could hold a nail or screw. 

It could make a very good residential building stud. 

In reply to frenchyd :

2000 years?

The Pantheon is 1900 years old, but for the purposes of this discussion, that is completely irrelevant. It’s an unreinforced lime based concrete, not a steel reinforced Portland cement based concrete. 

Reinforcement deteriorates, and deteriorates the concrete with it. For practical residential purposes, concrete construction lasts 50-100 years. 

And though your statement is quite dramatic, I am quite confident no one on this board lives in a 2000 year old structure. Including in your neighborhood .

In reply to SVreX :

The piece I’m speaking about is reportedly on a roadway.  True I’ve never seen it only read about I and you might be right it’s only 1900 years old. 

As far as concrete deterioration, 50 years?  So the big concrete towers here in New York that were built in the 1930’s are past their expiration date?  

I know it’s a rare log cabin that makes 50 years but like anything careful maintenance normal get seriously extended.  

And now we see why I've been studiously avoiding this thread... and will return to doing so.

In reply to Duke :

You were right.  I tried too.

D2W said:

Lots of things to think about. The concept seems to have a lot of benefits, but not sure as to all the downsides. The bottom line for me will be the ability to find someone who can do the work properly, and the cost.

As for the enviromental impact I would have to see a cradle to grave study. Most people like to quote simple theories based on cost to produce, ect. But you also need to assess the impact the product has on heating and cooling, lifespan, and what happens when the structure is demolished. Technically all three components are recyclable, the question becomes can they be separated easily enough to be recycled. 

Honestly, I would like to see more post consumer plastics made into building materials. Now that China has shut off the market for plastics the bottom has dropped out of the market. A lot of the plastic you throw in your recycle bin is ending up in landfills. Now would be a perfect time to develop building materials using these plastics as they have little to no real value. 

Finding a contractor will require you to find the source of the ICF forms. Ask cement suppliers.  

Dont expect competitive bids. The few contractors who do this regularly know how little competition they have and like to slice a fat hog.   

Even here where it’s relatively common the contractor who did three of the four houses nearby went bankrupt in the 2008 recession and has not come back. 

Aside from that electricians/ plumbers familiar with ICF’s  and the short cuts available will be rare and fear of the unknown will drive many bids.  

It was easy for me but I was willing, eager to tackle it   

D2W said:

SVreX said:

I think Frenchy and ThatsNoUserName should settle this in a cage wrestling match in Jello. 

But what is the R value of jello?

About .004  I used a u value of water (250) to guesstimate it. 

In reply to frenchyd :  tackle posting some pictures will ya?  I’d honestly love to see this house you built.

In reply to OHSCrifle :

Well I just tried again. I got so far as selecting a photo from my phone but somehow failed repeatedly to get it to post.  

In reply to frenchyd :

There are two ways to upload a photo:

Method 1: Simply drag and drop a photo into the editor where you're typing your comment. You can place it wherever you want it to appear in the post. It will automatically upload to our photo server.

Method 2: when you want to add a photo to your post, hit the image icon in the editor toolbar (directly to the right of the quotation mark). There will now be a third tab available in that dialogue box called "upload." Click that. Then simply select your file, wait for it to upload, and then hit "ok" when it sends you back to the first tab in the image dialogue box. 

SVreX said:

The real world thermal performance of ALL wall systems has nothing to do with R values, and everything to do with workmanship, attention to detail, and humidity transfer. 

Before I used ICFs, I would become intimately familiar with the issues related to termite infestation.  A system that requires putting styrofoam in contact with the ground is an invitation for an infestation.

 

 Termites are a real problem around here. Worse is carpenter ants.  That’s why before you backfill any foundation you “paint” the walls with that tar like substance. Not only does it protect you against Termites and carpenter ants   It waterproofs the walls against infiltration. 

That’s normal construction practice around here.  It’s been so for the 40+ years  I’ve been involved.  

As for “blow outs” it happens! Both to normal poured walls and to concrete block. 

SVreX said it well. “Workmanship, attention to detail and transfer” 

Since we admitted we were complete novices the guy running the pump truck grabbed his remote and watched us pour and vibrate.  He only allowed us to pour a few feet vertically at a time and then move on, followed by the vibrator operator.  Then when we came back to the starting point the concrete had started to stiffen.  So we added a few more feet. Etc.  

the hard work, pouring and vibrating we used two bag boys from the local grocery store. Paid them $20 an hour.  They like the work and we finished the section in four hours so they weren’t exhausted. 

It cost a little extra that way since we had the pump truck out three separate times and that probably added a couple hundred dollars extra.  But at a minimum it would have taken two trips.  Since we had so much to do. Not only the foundation but the driveway retaining wall 

EvanB said:

In reply to frenchyd :

There are two ways to upload a photo:

Method 1: Simply drag and drop a photo into the editor where you're typing your comment. You can place it wherever you want it to appear in the post. It will automatically upload to our photo server.

Method 2: when you want to add a photo to your post, hit the image icon in the editor toolbar (directly to the right of the quotation mark). There will now be a third tab available in that dialogue box called "upload." Click that. Then simply select your file, wait for it to upload, and then hit "ok" when it sends you back to the first tab in the image dialogue box. 

I finally did it!!!  Yea. 4 year old picture

It lives! You have described it so many times, it is cool to see a photo. Thanks for posting Frenchy. 

In reply to OHSCrifle :

Street side

Lake side