I'm pissed. It's just an allegation

I have a friend who just lost his job.

He's been a swim coach for 30 years (including state championships and coaching Olympian Angel Martino), and he was let go from the YMCA because of an allegation of inappropriate behavior (sexual misconduct) with a student.

ONE allegation.

30 years worth of history, without an incident. One allegation.

Apparently we have a new detective who has made it her duty to self-create a special victims crime department, and is pushing everything she can.

No charges have been filed, but she can leave the investigation open for up to a year (hoping more victims will come forward).

So, he was fired outright, can't apply for unemployment (because of the open investigation), can't get a job, and REALLY can't afford the attorney.

He has 8 kids, and they are a single income family. Very decent guy.

I understand the need for strong authority in situations like this, but I don't get firing a guy over an allegation. Paid leave, maybe. But ruining a guy's life (and his family of 10) because a student made a claim? WTF??

Rant off. But I'm still pissed.

Wow, that stinks man. This is a tough situation. If it were my kids, I'll be honest, I'd be uneasy letting someone coach them when there's an 'open investigation'. But I think you're right, maybe paid leave pending the outcome or something. This situation, basically being found guilty of a crime that's not even been charged yet is the modern-day witch hunt.

Ouch. Man, that sucks. My knee jerk reaction: he needs to lawyer up immediately (contingency?) and keep his mouth shut. He will probably have to sue to get back pay etc if found innocent, but he needs to lay the groundwork for that NOW. Like NOW NOW. Six months, even six weeks, from now may be too late.

Best of luck to him. He is going to need it.

Unfortunately when all the stories you hear about are when the allegations are true, it creates a presumption of guilt. No one reports the cases where false allegations are made. Hopefully the truth comes out sooner rather than later.

I am not even taking sides. If he is found to be guilty, I won't defend his actions.

But a national youth organization like the YMCA should have a much better policy than this. They should be looking to support their long term staff. They should be willing to say publically, "We deeply value the contribution Mr. Smith has given to us for decades, and are prepared to support him pending the outcome of this investigation. Until that time, he will be on paid leave, and not in direct contact with students." Then they should put their clout behind an effort to tame the loose cannon investigator.

Instead, they have contributed to the witch hunt, ruined a man, and strengthened the position of the renegade cop.

BTW- I don't think he will be able to get back pay. GA is an "at-will" state. That means they can fire you whenever they feel like it without cause.

moparman76_69 wrote: Unfortunately when all the stories you hear about are when the allegations are true, it creates a presumption of guilt. No one reports the cases where false allegations are made. Hopefully the truth comes out sooner rather than later.

True stories make much more titillating and sensationalistic news. Just because the untrue stories are not reported doesn't mean everyone is guilty. The untrue stories outnumber the true ones by a very wide margin.

"15 kids lied today, and tried to get a teacher in trouble". Yawn. Everyone would switch back to YouTube cat videos.

Kids lie for attention. Frequently. Give them unlimited power through an unwillingness on the part of the adults to limit the scope of that power, and they lie more, and get more attention.

We live in a paranoid society that thinks there is a pervert under every rock because that's what the news tells them, and we all believe in free speech, right?

BS.

Scariest movie I've ever seen was Disclosure - for pretty much this exact reason.

Capitalism/free market at its finest. :p

A company (legally in North America) has valid reason to fire/lay off an employee if said employee harms it's public image, whether guilty or not (see Jian Ghomeshi case in Canada).

At the end of the day, especially in society, there is NOTHING for a woman to gain by filing/accusing someone of sexual assault.

My girlfriend works in a role that deals with overall strategies on campus to reduce sexual assault. The amount of sexual assault cases in society in general are staggering, there are just no stats to back it up as it is wildly underreported.

1/5 females will be sexually assaulted in their lives. That is horrifying. So I can understand a company taking a no-bull approach to it.

iadr wrote:

HiTempguy wrote: Capitalism/free market at its finest. :p A company (legally in North America) has valid reason to fire/lay off an employee if said employee harms it's public image, whether guilty or not (see Jian Ghomeshi case in Canada). At the end of the day, especially in society, there is NOTHING for a woman to gain by filing/accusing someone of sexual assault. My girlfriend works in a role that deals with overall strategies on campus to reduce sexual assault. The amount of sexual assault cases in society in general are staggering, there are just no stats to back it up as it is wildly underreported. 1/5 females will be sexually assaulted in their lives. That is horrifying. So I can understand a company taking a no-bull approach to it.

Really?? Sorry but you obviously do not even come close to understanding the female pysche, especially the under 25y subset. The attention and pity is what many of them run on- it's their whole lives, so to say they have nothing to gain is beyond naive, in fact hard to believe you can't see it.

That is horribly offensive, insulting, and sexist.

iadr wrote:

HiTempguy wrote: Capitalism/free market at its finest. :p A company (legally in North America) has valid reason to fire/lay off an employee if said employee harms it's public image, whether guilty or not (see Jian Ghomeshi case in Canada). At the end of the day, especially in society, there is NOTHING for a woman to gain by filing/accusing someone of sexual assault. My girlfriend works in a role that deals with overall strategies on campus to reduce sexual assault. The amount of sexual assault cases in society in general are staggering, there are just no stats to back it up as it is wildly underreported. 1/5 females will be sexually assaulted in their lives. That is horrifying. So I can understand a company taking a no-bull approach to it.

Really?? Sorry but you obviously do not even come close to understanding the female pysche, especially the under 25y subset. The attention and pity is what many of them run on- it's their whole lives, so to say they have nothing to gain is beyond naive, in fact hard to believe you can't see it.

I should really just close this page, but I can't. Your attitude is one of blaming the victim. I am astounded that someone in this day and age could even think such a thing. Women want attention and pity, in return for having irreparable, life-long psychological damage and depression? No.

[Final comment redacted. It was the old familiar suggestion]

mtn wrote:

iadr wrote:

HiTempguy wrote: Capitalism/free market at its finest. :p A company (legally in North America) has valid reason to fire/lay off an employee if said employee harms it's public image, whether guilty or not (see Jian Ghomeshi case in Canada). At the end of the day, especially in society, there is NOTHING for a woman to gain by filing/accusing someone of sexual assault. My girlfriend works in a role that deals with overall strategies on campus to reduce sexual assault. The amount of sexual assault cases in society in general are staggering, there are just no stats to back it up as it is wildly underreported. 1/5 females will be sexually assaulted in their lives. That is horrifying. So I can understand a company taking a no-bull approach to it.

Really?? Sorry but you obviously do not even come close to understanding the female pysche, especially the under 25y subset. The attention and pity is what many of them run on- it's their whole lives, so to say they have nothing to gain is beyond naive, in fact hard to believe you can't see it.

I should really just close this page, but I can't. Your attitude is one of blaming the victim. I am astounded that someone in this day and age could even think such a thing. Women want attention and pity, in return for having irreparable, life-long psychological damage and depression? No. [Final comment redacted. It was the old familiar suggestion]

I think more of what he is getting at is that it's not uncommon for it to not really have happend... much like the day after pill it's a way of justifying a lack of judgment.

while obviously not always the case and maybe not even most of the time the case we all know this happens and when it does it ruins someones life just like it actually happening can really screw with her life.

EDIT/ADDITION as for the original subject... sadly we've had such a long history of sexual abuse with children in history that anyone that hears it and it scares everyone involved... I know if rumors started flying around I'd consider pulling my kid out of the situation... I've seen what that abuse really does to people (few of my aunts and my mo-in-law) and lets say bat-E36 M3 crazy would be pretty accurate

In Reply To SvreX:

A relative of mine was accused of having relations with a student, she was fired and put through a huge investigation, all because the little piece of E36 M3 went around bragging to his buddies that she was having relations with him after school. He admitted almost a year later that he made the whole thing up to look cool.

Even with that, she lost her teaching license.

Trust me, it's all bullE36 M3, so I feel for your friend and what he's been and going to be put through.

SyntheticBlinkerFluid wrote: In Reply To SvreX: A relative of mine was accused of having relations with a student, she was fired and put through a huge investigation, all because the little piece of E36 M3 went around bragging to his buddies that she was having relations with him after school. He admitted almost a year later that he made the whole thing up to look cool. Even with that, she lost her teaching license. Trust me, it's all bullE36 M3, so I feel for your friend and what he's been and going to be put through.

and the sad thing... when we see these stories that actually happen (not just some punk kid bragging) if it's a teen boy few are appalled, and some asking where those teachers where when they where in HS... when it's a teen girl everyone is calling for the teachers head on a pike because ya know... he's a predator... because... reasons

I wish your friend luck, Paul, and I wish my high school would have taken me half as seriously as the YMCA is taking the complainant in this case.

True or false, we have a responsibility to teach our kids that these things are very serious and will not be brushed off. Unfortunately it can put families in a hard spot, but if it's true, the child in question will be in an even harder place for the rest of their life.

In reply to iadr:

Sorry, you don't even come close, either.

Morbid wrote: I wish your friend luck, Paul, and I wish my high school would have taken me half as seriously as the YMCA is taking the complainant in this case. True or false, we have a responsibility to teach our kids that these things are very serious and will not be brushed off. Unfortunately it can put families in a hard spot, but if it's true, the child in question will be in an even harder place for the rest of their life.

but if made up … for whatever reason … and kids DO THIS … how does the teacher get his/her life back ?

tough question … and I certainly don't have even a suggestion of an answer

my next door neighbor… principle at a middle school … there were rumors of a teacher abusing some of his students …

she investigated as best she could, having to walk a fine line to keep from infringing on HIS rights … she couldn't find any corroborating evidence … turned what info (and accusations) over to the sheriffs dept … nothing came of it

a yr later the accusations resurfaced again and this time the truth came out … he was a sexual predator … and my neighbor lost her job and was soundly vilified in the community because she didn't have the guy arrested …

again, as I mention, tough job… and I don't see any easy answers

just ask Penn St about how something like this can go on for yrs and not be noticed

this teachers life is ruined, assuming for a moment he's innocent

In reply to wbjones:

There are no easy answers for sure, I don't think there ever will be a perfect answer, either. Allowing someone to remain in a position that potentially puts more at risk makes the employer culpable as well, firing them/putting them on leave looks bad for future employment. I wouldn't want to be in the decision maker's shoes at all.

mtn wrote:

iadr wrote:

HiTempguy wrote: Capitalism/free market at its finest. :p A company (legally in North America) has valid reason to fire/lay off an employee if said employee harms it's public image, whether guilty or not (see Jian Ghomeshi case in Canada). At the end of the day, especially in society, there is NOTHING for a woman to gain by filing/accusing someone of sexual assault. My girlfriend works in a role that deals with overall strategies on campus to reduce sexual assault. The amount of sexual assault cases in society in general are staggering, there are just no stats to back it up as it is wildly underreported. 1/5 females will be sexually assaulted in their lives. That is horrifying. So I can understand a company taking a no-bull approach to it.

Really?? Sorry but you obviously do not even come close to understanding the female pysche, especially the under 25y subset. The attention and pity is what many of them run on- it's their whole lives, so to say they have nothing to gain is beyond naive, in fact hard to believe you can't see it.

That is horribly offensive, insulting, and sexist.

and in a lot of cases, it just happens to be true..

i know of one guy that had his life totally turned upside down because his moody teenage step daughter decided that it would be fun to go to the cops and accuse him of molesting her. he was the mayor of this town of just over 1000 people- a man that was well known to everyone. he owned the video store (remember those??) and had just sold the local grocery store shortly before this happened, which meant that he employed and worked with a lot of teenagers over the years.

he had to step down as mayor and couldn't go to his own place of business while teenagers were working while the investigation was going on. he wasn't even allowed to be alone with his other kids. his lifelong friends no longer wanted to be associated with him and everyone looked at him in suspicion when he went anywhere.

the daughter kept making up more and more "events", making the stakes more and more high.. then, one day, she just admitted that she made it all up to get him in trouble because he wouldn't let her do something and didn't like the crowd she was hanging out with (small town wanna be goths, just like the ones on South Park). her and her friends all got a laugh out of it..

this was 15 years ago, and i don't know what his life is like now. i know he no longer owns any businesses in town, and i never see him around. but the girl that made the accusations is one of those militant lesbian activists that think all men are evil and every act of consensual sex a woman has with a man is rape. at least that's the kind of stuff she had on her facebook page when i stumbled across it a few years ago...

Umm..

The point was not whether or not he had done it, nor whether it's a girls fault or not.

The point was there were 10 ways the company could have handled it that would not have ruined a man and his family, and 10 ways the investigation could have been handled better.

A lot of you are bringing a heck of a lot of emotional baggage and opinions to this. I realize we all have life experiences and opinions, but those are not solutions.

Here, let me demonstrate...

I find it interesting that so many people assumed the child was a girl. I never said that. But several people jumped on the chance to spout their opinions about inappropriate actions on the part of women, or inappropriate actions on the part of men.

The assumptions (both ways) are misogynist in their very existence.

It's too bad we couldn't have left it at a bit of empathy, and a few suggestions for improvement.

A friend years ago had her daughter accuse her of abuse. The reality was that she was a single mother and the daughter was having a difficult time and was out of control. She grounded the daughter for sneaking out the house, so the daughter, who had some kind of bruise, accused the mother of hitting her repeatedly.

The woman was an elementary school teacher, and one day DHR and the police knocked on her classroom door, and they escorted her from the school in handcuffs in front of her pupils. It was quite a while before she found what was going on. Meanwhile the daughter was taken away and given to her grandparents and she wasn't allowed to see her at all under any circumstances.

Long story short, it took months and thousands of dollars to get it sorted out. She did get offered her job back, without back pay, but by that time, she moved to a different state to get away from everything. The daughter is still a mess 15 years later.

I know these things are serious, but there also needs to be common sense in the handling of them. Lives are at stake and until the truth comes out, there needs to be privacy and a true investigation before all hell breaks loose.

Morbid wrote: In reply to wbjones: There are no easy answers for sure, I don't think there ever will be a perfect answer, either. Allowing someone to remain in a position that potentially puts more at risk makes the employer culpable as well, firing them/putting them on leave looks bad for future employment. I wouldn't want to be in the decision maker's shoes at all.

yeah… cost my friend her job, since she didn't fire him immediately … without sufficient evidence … and you're right … there are no perfect answers …. I'm just glad I was never in either position … A)where I had direct contact with kids … regardless of how rewarding the "good" result would have been… and B) in position where I had to make the decision about someones job/or their future if not guilty

SVreX wrote: Umm.. The point was not whether or not he had done it, nor whether it's a girls fault or not.

to most people of that mindset, however, that IS tantamount to victim blaming. Even if no clear victimhood is established.

one is not allowed to question the integrity of the person laying the charge, and sometimes even the charge itself without immediately being labelled a victim blamer.

If true, it sucks. That said, we shouldn't be able to infringe on the rights of someone due to simple accusations. Innocent until proven guilty. As was mentioned earlier, your emotions have no place here.

madmallard wrote:

SVreX wrote: Umm.. The point was not whether or not he had done it, nor whether it's a girls fault or not.

to most people of that mindset, however, that IS tantamount to victim blaming. Even if no clear victimhood is established. one is not allowed to question the integrity of the person laying the charge, and sometimes even the charge itself without immediately being labelled a victim blamer.

Umm...

Except if it didn't happen, the victim is my friend.

So the "victim blaming" has already taken place, and it has cost the victim his livelihood, many thousands of dollars in legal fees, his respect, his position in the community, and many other things.

It's not OK to assume a victim until a crime has been established. They are only an alleged victim.

Note, that if my friend is innocent, he will pay an enormous penalty. None of the perpetrators of the crime will ever pay anything. (the child, their parents, the YMCA, the detective, the police force, the journalists)

Not sure if I said this earlier...

This is a first alleged offense. He's squeaky clean.

Also- the case has been left open BECAUSE the detective couldn't prove anything, in the HOPE that another "victim" will come forward. They can't prove any wrong doing, but they can destroy a man and his family.