Installing my own furnace and A/C

I'm confused. Seems like a pretty straight-forward process. Wire it in, plumb in gas, plumb in the compressor/condenser, turn it on.

Everyone is telling me that there is SOOO much more involved and I should let the pros do it. Really?

Well, it aint' rocket science, but it's probably beyond the abilities of 99% of folks nowadays. Any system running a refrigerant needs to be evacuated and properly charged, which necessitates the possession of some specific equipment.

Not so. I'm in the process of beginning the same thing. I found I was able to be more knowledgeable than the pros when it came to which units and SEER and the actual duct work running was dead simple.

I've helped install furnaces in farm buildings. Not complicated. A/C would require a vaccuum pump.

Code requirements on the other hand, that could drive the inexperienced nuts I suspect.

Find out what local regulations are for permits and inspections, and if gas and a/c connections can be performed by homeowners. I think some systems these days are configured so that hooking up the a/c lines requires no special tools, but you may need special equipment (vacuum pumps, refrigerant tanks and gauges, etc.) do to that portion. You also have to connect the air handler into the existing ductwork which will probably require some sheetmetal fabrication tools and experience.

If it's a 'package' unit (heat and a/c together with no separate evaporator) those come precharged. If it's a split unit where you have to run copper line rom the condenser to the evaporator, they come precharged but you need to evac and charge the system to account for the lines.

I'll have a pro do the vac and recharge. I don't want to buy the tools for R4xx for one project.

Regulations and permits don't apply. The only thing I would have to permit is something like a new 200A electric service, or an addition. Even then, I don't need to permit it unless I sell it and want to legally advertise the additional space. For instance, its a 576 sf house, 1.5 story, 3bd/2ba. I can put an addition on and make it a 650 sf house that is now a 4/3 without permits, but I can't sell it as a 4/3 unless I retroactively get permits for the work.

the problem around here is actually getting the AC units.

i'm a contractor with licenses and commercial accounts at suppliers. i can't get crap because i am not a licensed refrigerant guy. i'd have to have someone with the license purchase the AC unit for me. i can buy furnaces all day long but anything dealing with refrigerant requires special licenses to even purchase.

Might better line your pro up beforehand. Sometimes those guys are jerks about recharging something they didn't sell, i.e. instead of making $1500 off you they are making $150.

I looked into buying one off the Internet and installing it myself, since mine is a package it would have been pretty simple. The problem I ran into was 1) with freight it wasn't much cheaper than a pro install and 2) some companies will not warranty a unit that's not completely professionally installed. Overall it cost me ~$800 more to have the pro do it, but now if it goes tits up I call him and say 'yo, dude. You gots a problem.'

I helped my cousin (HVAC installer) do mine. The furnace was simple. The AC unit took more effort, brazing, wiring, charging, etc. Making a new plenum was probably the most time consuming part.

I'm not sure how things are now but I do remember my father installing AC himself in our house at the time. The "A" coil came sealed, the compressor and condenser also came sealed, and the coolant lines also came sealed. When you connected the lines to the two units, one inside and one outside the seals were broken and the Freon in the lines and units were free to flow. He was a union pipefitter so he was not without some knowledge of how the systems worked.

patgizz wrote: the problem around here is actually getting the AC units. i'm a contractor with licenses and commercial accounts at suppliers. i can't get crap because i am not a licensed refrigerant guy. i'd have to have someone with the license purchase the AC unit for me. i can buy furnaces all day long but anything dealing with refrigerant requires special licenses to even purchase.

The purchasing part is handled. I have a few HVAC friends who have agreed to buy it for me, but considering that you can buy them off ebay, I don't think it will come to that.

Curmudgeon wrote: Might better line your pro up beforehand. Sometimes those guys are jerks about recharging something they didn't sell, i.e. instead of making $1500 off you they are making $150. I looked into buying one off the Internet and installing it myself, since mine is a package it would have been pretty simple. The problem I ran into was 1) with freight it wasn't much cheaper than a pro install and 2) some companies will not warranty a unit that's not completely professionally installed. Overall it cost me ~$800 more to have the pro do it, but now if it goes tits up I call him and say 'yo, dude. You gots a problem.'

That's a good point. My HVAC friends are a great help, but they are 1500 miles away. Its not cost effective to fly them and all their equipment up to PA to charge my A/C.

I will look into the advantages/disadvantages of self-install vs. pro install, but I can't help but think that installing it myself should save some cash.

curtis73 wrote: I'll have a pro do the vac and recharge. I don't want to buy the tools for R4xx for one project. Regulations and permits don't apply. The only thing I would have to permit is something like a new 200A electric service, or an addition. Even then, I don't need to permit it unless I sell it and want to legally advertise the additional space. For instance, its a 576 sf house, 1.5 story, 3bd/2ba. I can put an addition on and make it a 650 sf house that is now a 4/3 without permits, but I can't sell it as a 4/3 unless I retroactively get permits for the work.

I beg to differ.

Pittsburgh Bureau of Building Inspection said: An HVAC permit is required prior to the installation, erection, enlargement, repair, alteration, removal, conversion or replacement of any mechanical system.

HVAC Permit Requirements

Work that does not require a permit in Pittsburgh

You need a permit to swap or install an HVAC system, whether or not you are the owner. You also need one for an addition, regardless of the size. It has nothing to do with selling it later. I you do work without a permit, Pittsburgh will fine you $160.

Pittsburgh permit fees

BTW, your installation will have to meet code, whether or not you are the owner. This may rule out many Ebay units.

Will you be installing ductwork, or just a unit?

SVreX wrote: I beg to differ.

Pittsburgh Bureau of Building Inspection said:

Which would apply if I were located within the borough of the 'burgh. I'm about 1/2 mile outside of the city boundary.

SVreX wrote: BTW, your installation will have to meet code, whether or not you are the owner. This may rule out many Ebay units. Will you be installing ductwork, or just a unit?

Ductwork as well. The ductwork that is currently in the house is an insane maze of inefficient, tight bends that reduce my basement ceiling to a noggin-bruising 5'. My house has a laundry chute running right up the middle connecting to every room except one. New ducting would consist of stuffing some 16x16" duct up that chute and cutting into it from each room. The one room that isn't connected to that wall is our walk-in closet and I'm not too worried about it... but I have provisions for ducting to that room if it needs it.

As far as meeting "code," I disagree. I had two inspectors look at this house prior to closing. The first was an inspector that I contracted through the code enforcement office. That inspector found absolutely nothing wrong. I also hired an independent inspector recommended by my realtor. He found 13 pages of stuff. Faulty wiring, plumbing leaks, mold, etc. When I called to get a permit for paving my driveway and connecting to a county road, the lady asked, "why?" I said, "don't I need one?" She replied with "I guess, but nobody does it."

In general, (even in Los Angeles when I was a general contrator) the way things go is that if you are buying a house to flip (less than 5 years) you need to permit everything. If you are buying a house to live in (more than 5 years) nobody really cares. I renovated countless houses in the most restrictive neighborhoods like Brentwood, Malibu, Santa Monica, Westwood, Burbank, and Beverly Hills. I never applied for a single permit on those renovations because it wasn't required. I even converted a portico to a 2-car garage in Burbank and didn't need a permit. That particular job, I had a code enforcer stop by and remind me that there can't be any living space above the garage.

Being required to build to code is in no way synonymous with requiring permits or inspections. Considering that half of my outlets in my house have reversed polarity despite the fact that an inspector signed off on the 100A service that the previous owners had installed is also a testament to that.

So you don't have a county inspector?

Having a house that is not built to code does not change the requirement to build in accordance with codes.

Why do you think they call them codes?

Your willingness to intentionally flaunt it is irresponsible.

PA has a statewide building code, with additional codes in some cities. They use the 2009 IBC Statewide.

I used to live there. The info you are claiming is false. There is absolutely nothing that releases people from code compliance obligation if they live in a house for 5 years. That is simply not true.

It's your house. I don't really care what you do. Just don't lead other people astray with misinformation.

SVreX wrote: It's your house. I don't really care what you do. Just don't lead other people astray with misinformation.

Ok, thanks. I guess I should replace all my GFIs back to their original 2-prong plugs then? At that point I can get a permit for replacing a receptacle and have it inspected?

SVreX wrote: There is absolutely nothing that releases people from code compliance obligation if they live in a house for 5 years. That is simply not true.

I never said that it releases anything. Just like there is no reason for a law officer to not give you a ticket for driving 67 in a 65mph zone. If an inspector looked at any random house they could find a few thousand problems, I'm just saying that inspectors take a more pragmatic and subjective view.

Of course I want it to be safe, but installing a furnace isn't much different than installing a water heater. Nobody told me I was breaking the law when I installed a new gas line for my stove, and I promise that (even if I applied for a permit to move my stove across the kitchen) no inspector would randomly enter my house and give me a citation for not getting a permit for 4' of iron pipe and some teflon paste.

You'd think codes and code enforcement was about protecting the public but it's really about money generation.

Most HVAC guys I see doing the work are morons, hopefully there's at least one non-moron that runs the company, but you never know. And it doesn't take a non-moron to do this. It's repetitive labor that varies only slightly from home to home. The placement varies, but the basics don't.

It's not rocket science!! It's mostly grunt work.

Yes, you need someone to charge it because it's difficult to get the Freon (or whatever you want to call what they are using today). I've got the equipment and I check and top off mine as needed, but the original install also requires pulling the vacuum and checking for leaks. Without doing it multiple times would I realize how much leak down is acceptable?

The non-moron depends upon morons to do most of the work. In this case you'd be his moron.

And whether or not you got permits has nothing to do with what an appraiser will say your house is when you sell it. If you made your half bath a full bath then when it's sold you can sell it as a full bath.

carguy123 wrote: Yes, you need someone to charge it because it's difficult to get the Freon (or whatever you want to call what they are using today). I've got the equipment and I check and top off mine as needed, but the original install also requires pulling the vacuum and checking for leaks. Without doing it multiple times would I realize how much leak down is acceptable?

Agreed. I've done tons of R134 and R12 work on cars, but I have no equipment (and no clue) how to work with the R-whatever they use these days. Its not an overly complicated idea. I could watch a few videos on youtube and probably be able to do it, but I'm not going to buy the equipment for a single job.

What I will probably do is install and use my vacuum pump to test for leaks, then let a pro charge it.

carguy123 wrote: It's repetitive labor that varies only slightly from home to home. The placement varies, but the basics don't. It's not rocket science!! It's mostly grunt work.

Amen to that. I have to chuckle sometimes at my job. I work at Home Depot. One of my jobs is Tool Repair. Customers bring in their lawnmower in April and wonder why it won't start after sitting for 4 months with old gas in it, or they bring in their snowblower in the middle of the first snowstorm of December wondering why it won't start after sitting for 10 months.

Its very fortunate that I have extensive repair knowledge because the "training" that Home Depot gives is remedial at best.

Anyone can be taught to install ducts, connect gas lines, or charge an A/C unit by watching a video. If an HVAC employee watches the video, he or she is a "certified installer." If I watch it on YouTube, I'm a hacker cheapskate homeowner who is violating the law.

anybody notice how really small this house must be ? 576sf.