Installing my own furnace and A/C

carguy123 wrote: Most HVAC guys I see doing the work are morons

Well berkeley you too buddy.

Most fuel burning heating equipment is required to be installed by a licensed contractor by code and you may need to pull a permit for it. It's usually not a big deal now, but could become a problem when trying to sell.

Yes, its a pita... Yes, it usually has nothing to do with the actual installation difficulty... But the potential for headaches down the road is high and not to be taken lightly. If the inspector wants to be a dick he can literally make you pay a contractor to rip everything out and have it reinstalled.

When it doubt, call your twp and ask. They will tell you if you need to pull a permit and what amount of work can be DIY. If they say you need a permit, don't berk around - do it.

curtis73 wrote: Anyone can be taught to install ducts, connect gas lines, or charge an A/C unit by watching a video. If an HVAC employee watches the video, he or she is a "certified installer." If I watch it on YouTube, I'm a hacker cheapskate homeowner who is violating the law.

It sounds like you are in a Union state. You've got to protect those union members jobs from all you know nothings don't ya know!!!!

In the old days they were called Guilds and they protected their secrets unto death so that the outsiders couldn't learn their secrets and do it themselves.

In reply to curtis73:

A few thoughts if I were doing it - I don't know if a pro who's doing the recharge has to sign or certify anything once they are done - if so, they may be reluctant to do so on a system they didn't install (their motives are probably both financial and safety-minded). I'd get your pro lined up and make sure they're cool with your plans.

How much design work is involved in making sure the system works efficiently (duct size, location, vent locations)? Might not be much of an issue in a small house - but I'd also run the plans by a pro you trust. I have been in a relative's house with a system that wasn't installed well/appropritately - I'd guess too big of a unit - it was newer but loud, in one room you froze, the other was warm; the system constantly cycled on and off. They added A/C and I suspect they needed to run ducts differently, rather than just where it was easy/cheap.

As to the other comments made- there's a big difference between not pulling the necessary permits, and not building to code. If you are supposed to get permits and don't, I don't really have a major issue with that so long as you are willing to live with the consequences (issues at sale, having to re-do work, removing a fence installed to close to a set back, etc.). But whatever work is done should be done in accordance with applicable building codes - when you replaced those outlets you didn't just install standard outlets onto a 2 wire system, leaving the ground wire loose, next to a sink, etc.

iceracer wrote: anybody notice how really small this house must be ? 576sf.

Its deceiving because its a 1.5 story. You can only list the sq ft of any FULL floors. The house is 24 x 24', but if you think about it there is a finished basement and a complete upstairs as well. Small footprint, but when you consider that its 3 actual levels, its more like a 1700 sq ft house.

klb67 wrote: As to the other comments made- there's a big difference between not pulling the necessary permits, and not building to code. If you are supposed to get permits and don't, I don't really have a major issue with that so long as you are willing to live with the consequences (issues at sale, having to re-do work, removing a fence installed to close to a set back, etc.). But whatever work is done should be done in accordance with applicable building codes - when you replaced those outlets you didn't just install standard outlets onto a 2 wire system, leaving the ground wire loose, next to a sink, etc.

Correct, and I thank you for the vote of confidence. I will continue to research permits, but so far all of my research has revealed nothing to suggest I need one for resale. The house (according to the county) is a 3/2 with a gas furnace. it doesn't list it as forced air, boiler and radiator, steam, nothing. Just "gas furnace." Permitting the A/C might be smart if its necessary, but I don't see the need to permit the furnace.

Curtis, you live in Allegheny County? They had fairly strict permitting and inspection requirements back in the 1960's. Much stricter than Westmoreland County where I lived and helped my parents build our house.

Yes, we did most of the work ourselves but we had to have all the permits and inspections. I would research very carefully on permits and inspections

http://www.generalcode.com/ecode360/PA

Grab a cup of coffee and have fun.

Stove example is irrelevant. Swapping a stove does not require a permit, swapping an HVAC system does.

If you intend to do good work, why be afraid of pulling the required permits? It's perfectly legal for you to do so for your own house. I consider the inspection as a second pair of knowledgable eyes there to help.

SVreX wrote: Stove example is irrelevant. Swapping a stove does not require a permit, swapping an HVAC system does. If you intend to do good work, why be afraid of pulling the required permits? It's perfectly legal for you to do so for your own house. I consider the inspection as a second pair of knowledgable eyes there to help.

It has absolutely nothing to do with fear or my ability to do good work, it has to do with complexity and cash.

Easy cowboy, no one is challenging your fearlessness.

Permits are certainly not complex, and don't take much cash.

Or are you saying you would like to do it cheaper than the code requires? I am not sure that would then be a good job.

Perhaps you need to explain a bit.

I'm having flashbacks to the smooth glass tile on the bathroom floor thread.

SVreX wrote: Easy cowboy, no one is challenging your fearlessness. Permits are certainly not complex, and don't take much cash. Or are you saying you would like to do it cheaper than the code requires? I am not sure that would then be a good job. Perhaps you need to explain a bit.

I do appreciate the counterpoint, even if I jump to the defensive first.

I was thinking that I can get the furnace and A/C for around $800 with my discount (did some work for Lennox on an ad campaign and still have some friends at corporate). When I called to ask last year about the permit for my driveway they said it would be something like $200. I was just thinking that adding 25% to the cost of my job isn't attractive.

... but, that was for connecting concrete to a public road. Maybe home improvement permits are more affordable. I'll look more into it.

EastCoastMojo wrote: I'm having flashbacks to the smooth glass tile on the bathroom floor thread.

Which, by the way, turned out super sexy, and even with soapy feet its not slippery. Not sure how, but I LOVE it, and you guys helped a bunch.

curtis73 wrote:

SVreX wrote: Easy cowboy, no one is challenging your fearlessness. Permits are certainly not complex, and don't take much cash. Or are you saying you would like to do it cheaper than the code requires? I am not sure that would then be a good job. Perhaps you need to explain a bit.

I do appreciate the counterpoint, even if I jump to the defensive first. I was thinking that I can get the furnace and A/C for around $800 with my discount (did some work for Lennox on an ad campaign and still have some friends at corporate). When I called to ask last year about the permit for my driveway they said it would be something like $200. I was just thinking that adding 25% to the cost of my job isn't attractive. ... but, that was for connecting concrete to a public road. Maybe home improvement permits are more affordable. I'll look more into it.

I have full confidence in your ability to do the job well.

I also have full confidence in the fact that you will push the limits and jump to the defensive much too early in most situations.

I just think you should pull the required permits (and no more than those required).

$200 is WAAY to much for a permit for HVAC. I would expect it to be more like $35.

BTW- bath looks very good.

Thanks - both for the compliment and the info.

Minor point, but "gas furnace" implies forced hot air. It would most likely state "gas boiler " for forced hot water.

It's interesting that most of the discussion has been about the A/C. From a permitting and inspection perspective, the furnace would be my bigger concern. Not due to technical difficulty, but liability.

While the odds are low, if you ever have a house fire due to the furnace malfunctioning, component failure, or a gas leak, it might get ugly. If it comes out that the installation was not permitted an inspected the insurance company may try to shift the liability to you rather than the mfg or insurance company, and they probably have deeper pockets for lawyers.

The actual work is pretty straight forward. It's the things you don't think of beforehand that a professional does a mental check list of that gets you. Here is a perfect example. In this state, HVAC guys do the unit and the duct work. Plumbers are responsible for gas, venting, chimney if applicable, making sure proper CO detectors are installed etc. I get a call yesterday morning. Can you hook up the gas for me? Just ripped out my steam boiler and had an HVAC company install a high efficiency gas fired furnace. No problem right? Get there, he was on oil. No gas. Gas to the second floor unit, but no gas to the first. Call the gas company about getting a second meter. Gas company says NOPE!! Gas line in the street is already overburdened. No new installs, period!!! I won't even go into the non permitted substandard HVAC work, no CO detectors, no place to vent the unit within a reasonable distance, or the fact that the boiler was also making the guys domestic hot water. Grabbed my tools and walked. Don't need those kind of headaches, that you will never fully be compensated for, this time of the year.

Neat how a canoe brought this back with good info from board regulars.

Curmudgeon wrote: Might better line your pro up beforehand. Sometimes those guys are jerks about recharging something they didn't sell, i.e. instead of making $1500 off you they are making $150.

This. We had a pro install the refrigerant lines in the ex-g/f's addition for this reason. Nobody we talked to was willing to touch something they didn't install. Yes. She really hated writing that $500 check to install two frickin' lines... Although he did cap them with valves, vacuum the lines and then pressurized them with nitrogen so we'd know quickly if they were damaged during the rest of the work. He was a guy doing side work on the w/e, so he didn't have a problem installing the lines and then coming back later to charge the system after the rest of the components were purchased. Also didn't have a problem with her sourcing the components, either. However, our position in the industry allows us a certain access to equipment the average buyer may have trouble getting. All she has to do is call one of the dozens of HVAC equipment reps she deals with.

I won't get into the code issues as Svex pretty much covered it there, other than to add you're on thin ice with your thinking... but I'm used to that... my ex- (a licensed PE who designs HVAC systems, as mentioned above) always bitched about permitting as well. And we deal with it every day for work. I replaced the electrical panel in the garage, years ago. She refused to get a permit for it.

Some things you'd think would require permits and a closer look were practically ignored during the inspection. I ran a good amount of gas piping from the basement up to the 2nd floor for a new gas dryer location. As far as I know, the inspector didn't even mention it. Granted, there was so much other stuff to look at, a 3/4" black pipe that ran up inside a chase, across in a soffit and then poked up through the floor would be easy to miss.

edit: HA! I thought all this sounded familiar... I wonder how Curtis did with it... or if it all went pear shaped after the wife-issues...

I did both my furnace and AC at my house (at different times). That said, I had help from highly qualified HVAC friends both times.

The thing I find most difficult is choosing the right unit for the home. The second most difficult thing was building a new plenum for the furnace.

The furnace was pretty darn simple. The AC was a much more involved installation. The plumbing on it required a lot more effort (brazing instead of mechanical connections), and you need some tools and expertise to add the refrigerant.

As far as codes, where I live, a homeowner is permitted to do a huge amount of work on a house. The threshold for needing a permit is surprisingly high relative to outlying suburbs.

Taking on a furnace is something I feel like I could do on my own. Taking on an AC unit is not.

Ian F wrote: edit: HA! I thought all this sounded familiar... I wonder how Curtis did with it... or if it all went pear shaped after the wife-issues...

HA indeed. This summer was super mild and I tuned up the furnace for this winter.

And you are spot-on regarding the wife issues. Let's just say that it looks like future HVAC issues will be her problem after she gets the loan to buy out my half. She and I have been doing pretty well as friends, so I could imagine helping in the future.

ill say this: i did what your doing, and i am of the "berkeley the permits its my berkeleying house" camp. the entire process is a money grab and a useless oversight dreamed up by beaurocrats and politicians lining their pockets. it has zero to do with public safety, and everything to do with uncle sam being your nanny.

-J0N

Wow. We replaced two split heat pumps several years ago and the HVAC NAZIs never showed up at our door. I feel lucky.

Years ago i called a licensed electrician to add a 220 plug in my garage. I told him to get the permit and do the work. When he showed up I asked about the permit and he said, aahhh, they just get into your business. This is something they COULD possibly catch because there is a second box beside the meter.