Lets see if I can do this without getting booted off the island.

alfadriver wrote:

MrJoshua wrote: You and I agree that they are not the same in value of opinion, but they are equal in their right to mount a lawful demonstration or protest.

As are their opponents for a counter demonstration or protest. Free speech does not mean speech free of consequences. Just means that the government isn't allowed to shut you up.

So serious question here, we in Lexington may be getting protestors from both sides soon (or so the internet rumblings would have us believe). What are our legitimate options? I don't see having two armed groups yell at one another as helpful or constructive.

Options

A. "test" the fire hoses and sirens in the area of the march. Soaking wet and drowned out is disheartening. (Nice but might be frowned on as the FD is part of the government)

B. Go all psy-ops and play Barney the Dinosaur at them at 140 dB until their minds give out. (This tempts me strongly)

C. Shun them all. (I love this idea but the media have to cover and the sides have to shout so it's the least likely)

D. This is KY, we have a lot of coal roaling pick-em-ups. Smog the area (for mosquitos of course). (fun, but probably not effective)

E. ??

Changing directions here. Do you all really believe this is about monuments and racism? It seemed fishy to me just like every other MSM manufactured outrage story. Jason Kessler, the organizer for "Unite the Right", use to work for CNN (looking at an old article now from 2011) and is said to be a former Occupy Wall Street guy. Just thought I'd throw that out there. Still researching myself as obviously you can do your own.

alfadriver wrote:

MrJoshua wrote: You and I agree that they are not the same in value of opinion, but they are equal in their right to mount a lawful demonstration or protest.

As are their opponents for a counter demonstration or protest. Free speech does not mean speech free of consequences. Just means that the government isn't allowed to shut you up.

Yep, but consequences enacted by people with the legal right to do so.

In reply to KyAllroad:

Start a ALT-Center group Stay safe!

In reply to KyAllroad:

I don't know. We were supposed to get one but the University cancelled it. Personally I was going to stay well clear and hope everyone I care about did the same. I wasn't hopeful for that though. There have been Klan Rallies here before and our state and local law enforcement did a pretty good job of keeping both sides from attacking each other. They were already coordinating with the public and other law enforcement agencies to prepare so hopefully it would have been kept as peaceful as possible.

Stay safe man.

Fletch1 wrote: Changing directions here. Do you all really believe this is about monuments and racism? It seemed fishy to me just like every other MSM manufactured outrage story. Jason Kessler, the organizer for "Unite the Right", use to work for CNN (looking at an old article now from 2011) and is said to be a former Occupy Wall Street guy. Just thought I'd throw that out there. Still researching myself as obviously you can do your own.

It may seem like a weird change of occupation, but if you imagine him as a guy who wants to air his grievances but isn't sure who to blame, it could make sense...Politicians in general? The 1%? Non-"Aryans?" He's trying to figure it out

Do I think the monuments issue is about monuments and racism? Yes (specifically the monuments being symbols of a racist cause on public land).

Do I think the protests are about monuments and racism? Partly. There's a lot of racism. On one side...On one side and the monuments simply served as an ignition point, and a cause to rally around that wasn't just blatant racism itself. And then the counter-protesters showed up.

KyAllroad wrote:

alfadriver wrote:

MrJoshua wrote: You and I agree that they are not the same in value of opinion, but they are equal in their right to mount a lawful demonstration or protest.

As are their opponents for a counter demonstration or protest. Free speech does not mean speech free of consequences. Just means that the government isn't allowed to shut you up.

So serious question here, we in Lexington may be getting protestors from both sides soon (or so the internet rumblings would have us believe). What are our legitimate options? I don't see having two armed groups yell at one another as helpful or constructive. Options A. "test" the fire hoses and sirens in the area of the march. Soaking wet and drowned out is disheartening. (Nice but might be frowned on as the FD is part of the government) B. Go all psy-ops and play Barney the Dinosaur at them at 140 dB until their minds give out. (This tempts me strongly) C. Shun them all. (I love this idea but the media have to cover and the sides have to shout so it's the least likely) D. This is KY, we have a lot of coal roaling pick-em-ups. Smog the area (for mosquitos of course). (fun, but probably not effective) E. ??

E: Police should meet these guys the same way they met other protests- in full riot gear and whatnot.

Putting that inbetween the groups will likely prevent violence between the two sides. And it will treat people demanding that right be taken away are at least treated the same as people demanding rights.

There have been declarations by politicians all over that their statues are coming down. I think the best bet would be for them to not publicize when its going come down. Maybe it will next week, maybe it will be mid 2019. Then one day workers show up and unceremoniously take them down. Dont give the kooks a date and time to show up and grandstand.

In reply to Fletch1:

Absolutely I do not.

There were several paragraphs I deleted from this post because this thread hasn't crossed a line yet and I don't want to be the one to do it, while at the same time I'd like to post them just to see how many people have even heard about any of it. I'll summarize by saying these groups that make up less than 1% of the National population and opinion make great distraction theater.

In reply to alfadriver:

This is absolutely what I hope will happen, and from what the police chief has said so far that sounds like it's going to be the plan.

Of course, it's likely that things here (regarding the statues) won't be totally resolved for a little while yet- the vote tomorrow is only the local city/county (they're essentially the same thing here) voting to move forward with petitioning the state commission for permission to move the statues. And the original plan of where to move them appears to have been walked back a bit with the Mayor requesting to come back in 30 days with an updated plan for a new location for the statues. SO there's a good chance that the real fireworks on this will not happen for several months when potentially there won't be as many people so hot under the collar about it and up for travelling here to cause trouble.

As I plan to attend the council vote tomorrow, I obviously hope it will be peaceful and uneventful- but it will inside the courthouse where everyone has to go through a metal detector/x-ray.

gearheadmb wrote: There have been declarations by politicians all over that their statues are coming down. I think the best bet would be for them to not publicize when its going come down. Maybe it will next week, maybe it will be mid 2019. Then one day workers show up and unceremoniously take them down. Dont give the kooks a date and time to show up and grandstand.

Baltimore's way ahead of you:

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/16/us/baltimore-confederate-monuments-removal/index.html

I expect other cities will do the same soon.

Fletch1 wrote: In reply to KyAllroad: Start a ALT-Center group Stay safe!

I see just as many anti-nazi antifa stuff as I do anti-centrist stuff. It's like "you're either with us or against us". Is the left trying to mobilize more people by saying that even if you agree with them, that you aren't really doing it right unless you "punch a nazi".

gearheadmb wrote: There have been declarations by politicians all over that their statues are coming down. I think the best bet would be for them to not publicize when its going come down. Maybe it will next week, maybe it will be mid 2019. Then one day workers show up and unceremoniously take them down. Dont give the kooks a date and time to show up and grandstand.

A lot of the statues being removed in the South are being done in the middle of night and the crews have to wear ballistic vests because of the threatened violence by the "alt-right" and pro-confederate groups.

Charlottesville seems to be being used as an an example of how bad the supremacists are. They turned out armed to the teeth.

But everyone seems to miss the point that not a single shot was fired.

The death of a woman was tragic, but it was performed by an individual in a car- almost impossible to defend against. Police in riot gear couldn't stop him.

Being armed is not a crime, and I hope it never will be.

pheller wrote:

Fletch1 wrote: In reply to KyAllroad: Start a ALT-Center group Stay safe!

I see just as many anti-nazi antifa stuff as I do anti-centrist stuff. It's like "you're either with us or against us". Is the left trying to mobilize more people by saying that even if you agree with them, that you aren't really doing it right unless you "punch a nazi".

That's practically the antifa's manifesto from what I understand. I like their cause but I don't like that their only tool is punching. I sometimes wonder if they're just another name used by the Black Bloc anarchists. They have a lot in common.

SVreX wrote: Charlottesville seems to be being used as an an example of how bad the supremacists are. They turned out armed to the teeth. But everyone seems to miss the point that not a single shot was fired. The death of a woman was tragic, but it was performed by an individual in a car- almost impossible to defend against. Police in riot gear couldn't stop him. Being armed is not a crime, and I hope it never will be.

While that may be true, all that does is point out that these guys are nothing but bullies, as they want to just intimidate people to do what they want. And we've seen this before, more than once, throughout history.

There's NO reason to give any credit at all to these fools. Especially when one was a coward and hid behind his steering wheel to assault people.

Sorry, Paul, that's a weak point to make. They wanted violence, but in the face of what they saw- they would lose.

alfadriver wrote:

KyAllroad wrote:

alfadriver wrote:

MrJoshua wrote: You and I agree that they are not the same in value of opinion, but they are equal in their right to mount a lawful demonstration or protest.

As are their opponents for a counter demonstration or protest. Free speech does not mean speech free of consequences. Just means that the government isn't allowed to shut you up.

So serious question here, we in Lexington may be getting protestors from both sides soon (or so the internet rumblings would have us believe). What are our legitimate options? I don't see having two armed groups yell at one another as helpful or constructive. Options A. "test" the fire hoses and sirens in the area of the march. Soaking wet and drowned out is disheartening. (Nice but might be frowned on as the FD is part of the government) B. Go all psy-ops and play Barney the Dinosaur at them at 140 dB until their minds give out. (This tempts me strongly) C. Shun them all. (I love this idea but the media have to cover and the sides have to shout so it's the least likely) D. This is KY, we have a lot of coal roaling pick-em-ups. Smog the area (for mosquitos of course). (fun, but probably not effective) E. ??

E: Police should meet these guys the same way they met other protests- in full riot gear and whatnot. Putting that inbetween the groups will likely prevent violence between the two sides. And it will treat people demanding that right be taken away are at least treated the same as people demanding rights.

Agreed. They tend to be ready with the riot gear whenever leftist groups show up to protest trade meetings. Perhaps in the past the ultra right wingers weren't as violent, but that's changed.

As for what any individual can do, I'm a fan of mocking. I love it when I see people hanging out near Westboro Baptist protests carrying goofy signs. My favorite is when someone showed up with a boom box and rickrolled them.

In reply to alfadriver:

Redacted.

I'd think the police would have to be worried about all that equipment, though. Say they want to disperse the crowd with rubber bullets, then suddenly we've got these guys armed to the teeth shooting into the crowd thinking it's the opposition, and we end up with dead people without anyone to hold to justice. This of course would lead to even more violence.

I was going to try one more time as a veteran to explain why it is wrong to just write off as a villain someone who served their country to the best of their ability just because their side lost, but I don't think it will change any minds.

So I will just talk about a real life example that maybe someone will understand: We as a country fought for the losing side in the Vietnam conflict. By some of the opinions presented here that means we can never honor those who served, since we were on the wrong side of the war. Might as well call them all babykillers and deny them benefits too, right? How much of a scar did that treatment of our vets leave on the soul of our country?

Sure, in Vietnam there are probably not a lot of monuments to soldiers who fought on the side of the south, but their sacrifices aren't negated by who won. And it is perfectly acceptable for people to be proud of the sacrifices their soldiers made on behalf of the people who they served.

Same goes here, you don't get to demonize the soldier who does his best because of the motivation of the politicians who directed the course of the war.

Am I a villain because I served during two wars, because you don't believe we should have been in those wars? Do you get to call me a criminal a hundred years from now because maybe by then Iraq will rule the world? How do I become evil because the world's sensibilities change?

It's wrong to assign motivation, blame, and damnation to someone who served based on how you feel about the conflict now. It's particularly wrong for people who were conscripted to serve. The soldiers on both sides who fought and died bravely deserve to have their stories told.

In reply to oldopelguy:

I think there's a difference between honoring the officers and honoring the sacrifices made by individual soldiers. I've no problem with memorials for the fallen soldiers, just with monuments for those who led them.

eastsidemav wrote: In reply to oldopelguy: I think there's a difference between honoring the officers and honoring the sacrifices made by individual soldiers. I've no problem with memorials for the fallen soldiers, just with monuments for those who led them in the name of keeping slavery legal.

Bolded part is mine.

In reply to oldopelguy:

Very good point and a lot of food for thought.

I've read some good views by veterans who believe that there is a difference between honoring and to some extent awarding those who served, but monuments of military leaders may not exactly be the best, as often times it is the leaders who survived the war while sending hundred or thousands off to die.

One had a really good point of "imagine all the time and money spent on war monuments that could have gone to getting veterans better care."

Lifted from a comment elsewhere that I am not going to link to. I just thought it was relevant.

What's desired, by both the neo-Nazi/white power and communist/SJW/antifa movements, is to cast the debate as a rivalry between the two. They BOTH want that. They both want people thinking that "if you're against SJW you must be a Nazi" and "if you're against our white power thing, you must be a commie". It's a means to legitimize themselves and gin up support. It's a trick to get you to defend them by saying "not as bad as". Do that enough, and you've accidentally picked a side. They both want you to pick a side, and they both get stronger, if you do.

Also-- Some seem to be defending the antifa groups. Not the legitimize protesters but the anarchist turds. They are baseball bat carrying, knife wielding, bike lock swinging, police horse stabbing thugs who hide behind masks. They ARE as bad as the right wing turds. Both sides need to be flushed down a toilet.